Gyro for controlled Wheelies

[speedmd]

My GnG mid drive / C-dale on a 40+ amp controller with a 18s lipo setup flips you on your butt much faster than a 250cc MX race bike would. After all it is around 50 pounds and you sit way high on it. In a 39/ 21 or lower final drive ratio, it is not easily controllable without some throttle treatments. Wheel base needs to be 5 -6 inches longer and a bigger battery up front somewhere to properly tame it out. Completely different animal than a typical hub motor setup.

 

[Vanarian]

IDK, why Jive 'em, Ro? Is ridin' "12 Oh" a skillset to improve your confidence or impress others (or give them a good crash laugh)? Me thinks both (or all)..... but it depresses me to think intelligent minds here at ES would be wasted on phoney camera Posers?!?

Wanna look cool, develop a Gyro, Pay a Factory, Take a Picture, Cheat yourself and Fool the Man...... but your still a Poser
Wanna be cool, develop you, Ride Hard, Take lots of Chances, Cheat Death anyway you Can...... the memory lasts Forever

What we really need is to develop our e-rides e-equipment for more control of volts..... like KTM's e-wheelie weapon here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL_IXTE5qDs

If ES's goal is to legit EV's and earn public respect, keep it real. I think there's already enough false claims by EV dealers tarnishing public trust, a reason why EV's are not more widely accepted and used! Now that mainstream transportation manufacturer's are selling EV's, ignorant skeptic's pointing finger's at legit manufacturers like Tesla, Zero and Brammo has slowed but some damage was done...... Maybe now that these companies don't have primary focus on defending public misconception, they can get back to improving EV tech and building a better product...... IMHO

Hi, except your useful link about KTM bike I disagree with your entire post here!

First this thread is not about developing "poser" gimmick but developing safety equipment for E-bikes. This is as sophisticated as a traction control, maybe even more and being able to make wheelies / anti wheelies safer is a progress, not a regress. We love old school roots, I brag about manual transmission in sport cars, but eh I would not badmouth a PDK/F1/DSG type gearbox for it is freaking efficient and still fun.

Second EV are simply underestimated by majority of people because "Duh it's electric, what if you get a problem or a hazard, let me get back to my diesel truck" misconception. EV factories are making a wonderful job already (trust me, I'm a petrolhead yet I love what I see here) so stop complaining, don't discourage others to work. You have no idea what applications this thread can lead to, wheelie or not wheelie. It is useful.

Keep the work going guys.

 

[skWarDog]

Hi, except your useful link about KTM bike I disagree with your entire post here!

Everyone has the right to have their own opinion, I respect your right to this opinion.....

Maybe I'm different;
I don't watch Movies/TV/play video games cus it's fake propaganda.
I believe Alien life lives among us, Barry's an Alien.
Still my opinion;

Wanna look cool, develop a Gyro, Pay a Factory, Take a Picture, Cheat yourself and Fool the Man...... but your still a Poser
Wanna be cool, develop you, Ride Hard, Take lots of Chances, Cheat Death anyway you Can...... the memory lasts Forever

I got tons of memories! Wanna Race Sum'in?

 

[macribs]

@skWarDog
It seems you are opposed to innovation and using available technology to make e-bikes more safe. And I can not grasp why?
Either you are stubborn and do not embrace new technology or maybe you "learned to wheelie the hard way" and think everyone else using tech-aid to ensure a fun but safe ride are "posers"? If so that is So sad.

My2Cents

 

[waynebergman]

Once someone comes up with a working solution for an effective way to read, monitor and send correction signal for the desired tilt or angle for an assisted wheelie I am wondering if it would be best and simpler to have the output correction all focused on braking alone instead of on the power side or both power and braking. I guess ideally the corrective action to help with an assisted wheelie would be both on the throttle side and the braking side (in a perfect world) but I would think braking alone might be easier to accomplish for such a difficult project and cuts out a lot of variables. I think this approach could also putt a comfortable amount of the job at hand back into the riders control.

As I mentioned in an earlier post my guess is, its going to take a fairly skill rider anyways to ride even a computer assisted wheelie for any length of time so if the rider was still responsible for the power application and ones personal body movement to keep things at the balance point and rely on the computer assisted braking forces to help with flipping over may be a good route to go.

If an assisted system like this is going to work people will want to ride the wheelie slow and this in itself will be hard to keep in a straight line meaning body english to keep the wheelie going. Speed will help things go straight but you pay a price when things flip over backwards at speed and any one that needs a computer assist for wheel stands may be best off going slow.

Besides rider input on the power and balance side, the balancing of a wheelie should be able to work with rear brake braking only if the system will work at all. My guess is it would make the dream wheelie for us mortals a lot easier but still gives the rider some input. A "computer assisted braking only solution" would let mid drives with no engine braking and DD hubs and Gear reduction hubs all work the same. Riders would of course need a smooth throttle control and some practice to make it all work but my guess is this would be the way to go.

My son can ride a manual down a slight incline for blocks and blocks with only the rear brake and a huge grin on his face. He somehow has been able to do this since he was a around 10 years old. The term "Manual" on a bike is an long wheelie with no pedal assist just kind of coating down a hill and with either body movement and or braking you ride it out. I looks super cool and is not easy to do but I just mention this here to kind of explain how I can see a computer assisted brake control to maybe be an option for a working model.

I hope this all makes scence? .......wayne

 

[macribs]

If something is worth doing - it is worth doing well. Why half ass it? Go big or go home I say.
Let the gyros, sensors and controllers talk to one another and it will make for a more fun ride, yet safer.
If you feel the need to do, learn or practice manual wheelies or pedal-powered-only-wheelies you can still turn it off or use a different bike for that.

[youtube]l486tKKIifY[/youtube]

 

[The fingers]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...to-stay-upright-when-stopped/article24920123/Electronic training wheels now available. :lol:

 

[macribs]

Now lets just hope someone takes the gyros into e-bike controllers. There was some talk about it last fall but after that I have not heard much. I'll guess we'll have to wait and see what comes along.

 

[rhinejuice]

Could an app do it with a smartphone?

 

[macribs]

Could an app do it with a smartphone?

Highly doubt that. I think a quality Gyro is needed - automotive grade. To counter act when reaching balance point to.
And I would also love to see an e-bike controller with blind spot detector.

 

[speedmd]

Most good smart phones use incredibly good sensors. I posted the link earlier in the thread. Here it is again.

http://www.invensense.com/mems/gyro/mpu9150.html http://www.invensense.com/mems/gyro/mpu9150.html

They are not expensive, can handle tons of G force and angular rotation. 2000 degrees / second and 16 G for under $10 with software. Takes a smarter person than I to build it into a throttle control.

 

[crossbreak]

thing is, you need a torque control ebike controller with very fast throttle response. Sadly i dont know any product that has these capabilities.

self balancing unicycles use "normal" ebike controllers with gyro. Shouldn't be too hard to hack that gyro interface. Sadly this is not the power level you are after.

 

[John in CR]

It's been a couple of years, but Justin told me all he needs is the signal from an inclinometer and simple programming in a CA3 could give anti-flip and wheelie control or limitation.

 

[Offroader]

May I ask, is it difficult to do a wheelie with just the throttle if your bike had the power to do it?

Why the need for a gyro?

I see all these motorcycle riders doing wheelies like they were easy.

 

[macribs]

May I ask, is it difficult to do a wheelie with just the throttle if your bike had the power to do it?

Why the need for a gyro?

I see all these motorcycle riders doing wheelies like they were easy.

The gyro can be used in two ways. As a mean to avoid wheelies, many e-bikes has downhill geometry which means you put more weight on your rear wheel then on your front wheel. In fast accelerations even more of the bikes weight transfers to the rear wheel. Making fast accelerations with hi-powered e-bikes prone lift their front wheel to fast. Wheelie control can also as a mean to control the bike ie when bikes hits the balancing point, AKA 12 o'clock riding. Then the gyro would avoid you flipping your bike.

A motorcycle i imho way easier to wheelie. First of all because there is a clutch, just "pop" the clutch and up your front wheel goes. (assuming you are in the right gear) Then the balance of a motorcycle along with torque curve makes it easier to adjust the angle or height of front wheel by using the throttle and rear brake.

On an e-bike there is no clutch, which means you must use motor torque alone to raise that front wheel. Don't know if you ridden e-bikes but they can be a little "twitchy" on the throttle. Which makes the throttle/rear brake coordination so much more important when wheelie an e-bike. And also makes e-bike wheelies much harder to master. And for that and safety issues a wheelie control would be freakin awesome.

 

[Offroader]

I can see why we need a Gyro.


Trying to mess around doing wheelies, what I find is it is easy to lift the front up because all you do is just pull the handlebars up while giving full throttle.

The hard part is controlling it as I find that I can easily wheelie too much and flip back off the bike.


Should I move the rear brake to the left hand to control the wheelie?

How does this guy do them so easily?

[youtube]YwEWp07ElWk[/youtube]

 

[PRW]

have a look at the same guy in this video - slows down to correct pace, pedals once or twice hard, pull on the bars and leans back. He has regen with his left thumb, so he could balance it on that - but I am not sure if he does, or if that would be too abrupt.

[youtube]BgWQ0vWmz_A[/youtube]

 

[izeman]

i think balancing can ONLY work with being gentle on the throttle and playing with rear brake and movement of COG of your body.
regen mostly is an on/off thing and can't be used for balancing.

 

[PRW]

i think balancing can ONLY work with being gentle on the throttle and playing with rear brake and movement of COG of your body.
regen mostly is an on/off thing and can't be used for balancing.

yip, I think that you're right - on a motorbike it was done just feathering the brake, and regen would be too harsh

 

[speedmd]

With a twitchy throttle it is near impossible to control. With a motor -drive line that free wheels when off throttle it also makes over rotation troublesome. It is a balancing act for certain. Brake if you over do it. In my experience it is difficult to use the brake to just help balance. Takes tons of practice.

 

[macribs]

One weekend of practice according to the man himself. Assuming he was well balanced before he started with 12 o clock on the stealth.
You can see how gentle his hands are, both the throttle and the rear brake are operated smoothly.

I would imagine a gyro would be able to give wheelie a whole new dimension - after all people do not struggle much with the Segway. And Segway was originally a 4 wheeled wheelie machine before they used that gyro to drop two wheels.

[youtube]1xID556Nevw[/youtube]

 

[izeman]

i think balancing can ONLY work with being gentle on the throttle and playing with rear brake and movement of COG of your body.
regen mostly is an on/off thing and can't be used for balancing.

yip, I think that you're right - on a motorbike it was done just feathering the brake, and regen would be too harsh

throttle for sure is the other thing. if it's too smooth, you can't react fast enough, if it's to quick you can't control it. on a motorbike the clutch can help here a little.

 

[Offroader]

Does anyone know if it is better to set the throttle in Max-E, to speed mode or torque mode when trying to do a wheelie?

 

[gwhy!1]

Does anyone know if it is better to set the throttle in Max-E, to speed mode or torque mode when trying to do a wheelie?

just thinking about it logically torque mode would be better

 

[Willow]

...what about something very simple - a mechanical device using hall sensors....one fixed side, one side is a swinging pendulum... the pendulum will always remain horizontal, and will cut back - or cut throttle when it gets critical.

...agree with, GWHY... torque mode is the way to go. With slow speed wheelies as shown in the above video and going back to my post near the start of this - a simple device such as a pendulum or simple gyro, with a momentary button switch on the handlebars to engage the wheelie circuit (the pendulum)... Given the ability of the ADAPTTO to map a throttle curve it may be possible to set-up a 'wheelie assist' function - not perfect but when calibrated should make things much easier to maintain the balance point. Could even engage regen when the tipping point is reached or breached... kind of like feathering the rear brake if you are running a hub.