ice sheet losses in Greenland and Antarctica reach new highs

[LockH]

....don't you think women should be allowed to vote ?

Hehe... Oooops. Yah. OK. One of my ancestors fought for the right for women to vote:
https://archive.org/details/cihm_13045

...in 1895. Just not sure he imagined giving them the right to drive... [cough cough] :lol:

And a few of us guys in my family were all named after a woman.

 

[Chalo]

Hehe... Rude of me probably, but if I were King I would require a college or university degree just for the privilege to vote in elections.

I'd require the voter to have work of tangible value to society, which many degree holders don't. Remember those Wall Street guys who crashed the global economy? They were "educated". So are attorneys. So are marketing professionals.

I'd also reserve the franchise for childless people, since having offspring seems to limit people's sense of duty and consequences to only what might matter for their own children. For the problem under discussion and many others, we need a broader vision than that.

 

[jimw1960]

A Category 5 Hurricane is bearing down on Mexico's Pacific coast right now. With sustained winds over 200 mph, it is the strongest hurricane ever recorded in either the eastern Pacific or Atlantic region. It is hardly making the news, but this will not be pretty.

 

[LockH]

"A curious cold spot in the Atlantic has scientists thinking their worst fears have come true"

http://inhabitat.com/a-curious-cold...ts-thinking-their-worst-fears-have-come-true/

Warm and cold water should be mixing to normalize water temperatures, but the currents are functioning the way they need to. They rely on differences in temperature and salinity, which basically means that cold salty water in the North Atlantic sinks (it’s really dense) and warmer southern waters move northward to take its place. When a large influx of cold, fresh water is introduced to the picture, the system goes haywire and the water circulation patterns are weakened because the sinking doesn’t occur. And where is the fresh water coming from? The melting glaciers, of course. If the trend continues, it could mean rising sea levels along the East Coast and a change in temperature for Europe and North America.

 

[LockH]

New York Times "Greenland Is Melting Away":
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/27/world/greenland-is-melting-away.html?_r=0

(Amusing vid shot from a drone)

"For three days and three nights, the scientists continued to measure the river, as up to 430,000 gallons of water a minute poured off the ice and into the moulin."

 

[jimw1960]

Some beautiful footage in that article, LockH. I got to spend three summers up on the Greenland Ice Sheet when I was in grad school. Where we were, the ice was two miles thick and did not melt during the summer (at least it didn't melt back then) so the preserved layers of ice went back over 200,000 years.

 

[LockH]

Some beautiful footage in that article, LockH. I got to spend three summers up on the Greenland Ice Sheet when I was in grad school. Where we were, the ice was two miles thick and did not melt during the summer (at least it didn't melt back then) so the preserved layers of ice went back over 200,000 years.

Cool [Jealousy Mode Off]

Other news about the melt... "Scientists Reveal a Bit of Good News About Greenland’s Great Melt":
http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-reveal-bit-good-news-greenlands-great-melt-185613299.html

(Correction: It's not just a "melt", but a Great Melt.)

Part:

But by the end of summer, they discovered, channels carved in the base of the ice by the melt water drained the water so well that the lubrication decreased. By winter, the flow of the ice slowed down. Over time, the rate of the slowdown topped the rate of the summer speedup.

But their optimism is decidedly guarded, because this area of the ice sheet terminates on land. Ice sheet areas that flow into the ocean, which are affected by warming air temperatures and warming ocean surface waters, don’t appear to be slowing down.

:?

 

[jimw1960]

Other news about the melt... "Scientists Reveal a Bit of Good News About Greenland’s Great Melt":
http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-reveal-bit-good-news-greenlands-great-melt-185613299.html

It's pretty discouraging to read the comments on articles like that. So many people have been duped into thinking a few corporate hacks and conservative talk show hosts know more about climate science than the actual scientists who have been collecting and analyzing observations for decades.

 

[jimw1960]

Some photos from my adventures in Greenland.

 

[LockH]

Scientists confirm their fears about West Antarctica — that it’s inherently unstable:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...west-antarctica-that-its-inherently-unstable/

In a new study published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Johannes Feldmann and Anders Levermann of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research use a sophisticated climate model to study what will happen if these glaciers are, indeed, fully destabilized. And in essence, they find that the process of retreat doesn’t end with the region currently up against the ocean.

 

[Hillhater]

The first thing any scientist should know is.... never put predictions of future events in print !
..and the second thing should be...be careful who you voice predictions to !

 

[jimw1960]

The first thing any scientist should know is.... never put predictions of future events in print !
..and the second thing should be...be careful who you voice predictions to !

As someone who actually happens to be a scientist, I have to disagree. I am in the business of water resource management and am called on to make predictions/forecasts quite often. Resource managers need to be able to plan for reliable water for our region with a 50 year time horizon. The trick is to not just make a prediction, but to also communicate the levels of uncertainty or confidence intervals of projected outcomes. We use all sorts of historical data (precipitation, stream flows, groundwater levels, tree ring records, etc.) to evaluate variability, trends, cyclical behavior, drought frequency and severity. It is quite interesting work.

While political pundits and corporate interests go about spreading misinformation to create doubt, the agencies who actually have to ensure future resource availability are quietly making plans to deal with the observed and continuing warming trend and increased frequency of drought and flood events.

 

[Hillhater]

Example..
..referring to a guy who was appointed Australia's Chief Scientist ...

Daily Telegraph
May 15, 2012

FIVE years ago, Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery predicted that the nation’s dams would never be full again and major Australian cities would need desalination plants to cater for our water needs.

Yesterday, in his latest report, he said “climate change cannot be ruled out” as a factor in recent flooding rains, which led to some of those dams overflowing.

The apparent contradiction accompanies predictions that heatwaves, made worse by concrete, asphalt and buildings, will cause deaths and violence in western Sydney.

Read more here

Western Sydney to go mental from global warming May 14, 2012
Posted by honestclimate in Discussions.
Tags: climate change, global warming, Tim Flannery failed predictions, Western Sydney
7 comments
Climate commissioner Professor Tim Flannery said temperatures on rise in Sydney’s west

Via the Daily Telegraph
May 14, 2012

THE nation’s leading climate change expert has again warned of dire weather events – but this time his predictions centre on western Sydney.

Headed by Chief Commissioner Professor Tim Flannery, the Climate Commission predicts mental health complaints will be worse during the predicted heat waves.

The commission said western suburbs were suffering from “an urban island heat effect” with concrete, buildings and asphalt raising temperatures by 1C to 2C.


For those who aren’t familiar with Professor Tim Flannery, he is a (well paid government funded) joke here in Australia. A few years back, he preached that global warming would cause permanent drought in Australia, “so even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and river systems …”. Since then we have had nothing but floods floods floods!

Based on Flannery’s past prediction failures, I suggest that if you live in Western Sydney, that you buy some warm clothes and invest in some serious heating!

As a result of Flannerys predictions, Australia invested billions of dollars building desalination capacity.....that has subsequently never been used beyond maintenance cycles..and costs millions of dollars just to maintain at idle.
..sometimes it may be better to prevent these guys having access to public influence.

 

[Punx0r]

That kinda sounds like a prediction was made on the available evidence, then a bit of freak weather hit and everyone started shouting "explain that, smart guy!".

Maybe Tim Flannery is a bumbling fool, but whoever makes any kind of prediction there is always a chance it will turn out to be wrong, despite being that best decision that could have been made at the time.

 

[markz]

Australia's Chief Scientist

More like Chief speculator/spin doctor.

 

[Ratking]

Even though I mostly have given you guys up when it comes to reason I still put some links up in case some open minded people care to read a bit. Non of you religious people read the links I provide anyway.

Why Science today is damaged by climate wars:
http://www.thegwpf.com/matt-ridley-the-climate-wars-the-damage-to-science/

Increase in ice larger than loss in Antarctica:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151030220523.htm

Why you should never trust IPCC, they get caught lying more than they speak the truth(just one of many examples):
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.no/2014/11/new-paper-finds-huge-false-physical.html

Ted Cruz: ‘Climate Change Is Not Science, It’s Religion’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/10/28/ted-cruz-climate-change-is-not-science-its-religion/

So since Antarctica have more snow and ice, and the same for Greenland, Nasa can not find increased ocean tempreature, what is global warming then? No increase in extreme weather either.
http://www.thegwpf.com/greenland-blowing-away-all-records-for-ice-gain/

Have fun boys and girls, I love this forum for its technical solutions and inspiration, but when it comes to politics(religion for some) it sucks. I hate religion, the worst that could happen to humanity

 

[Punx0r]

Non of you religious people read the links I provide anyway.

To whom are you addressing that comment?

 

[jimw1960]

Why Science today is damaged by climate wars:
http://www.thegwpf.com/matt-ridley-the-climate-wars-the-damage-to-science/

The GWPF, or Global Warming Policy Foundation, is a "charitable organization" set up to spread misinformation and lobby against any action to address carbon emissions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Warming_Policy_Foundation

"In 2014 the Charity Commission ruled that the GWPF had has breached rules on impartiality in its climate change coverage, blurred fact and comment and demonstrated a clear bias."

"The foundation has rejected freedom of information (FoI) requests to disclose its funding sources on at least four different occasions."

Increase in ice larger than loss in Antarctica:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151030220523.htm

Yes, we were just discussing this article earlier in the thread. This article does nothing to refute the warming aspect; it suggests that increased snowfalls in western Antarctica are more than making up for the ice losses in eastern Antarctica. More snowfall does not mean no warming. It is undisputed that surface temperatures in Antarctica are warming as they are in most of the world. However, temperatures are still below freezing year-round so when snow falls, it eventually gets buried, compacted, and becomes ice. That's fairly good news for sea level rise, but does not refute the warming trend caused by carbon emissions.

Why you should never trust IPCC, they get caught lying more than they speak the truth(just one of many examples):
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.no/2014/11/new-paper-finds-huge-false-physical.html

That tired old accusation about the "hockey stick" emails. Take a watch of this video and hear the real story from Michael Mann, the scientist whose emails were hacked and taken out of context, and tell me where he is wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3j9j6WNpRM

Ted Cruz: ‘Climate Change Is Not Science, It’s Religion’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/10/28/ted-cruz-climate-change-is-not-science-its-religion/

Ted Cruz? You're kidding, right? And Ted Cruz got his Ph.D. in climate science from where?

So since Antarctica have more snow and ice, and the same for Greenland, Nasa can not find increased ocean tempreature, what is global warming then? No increase in extreme weather either.
http://www.thegwpf.com/greenland-blowing-away-all-records-for-ice-gain/

Again, GWPF's sole purpose is to spread misinformation. Greenland is currently losing ice at a rate of several hundred cubic kilometers per year.

Lastly, if you want to keep contending that we can put 30 billion tons of CO2 into the air every year and NOT warm the climate, the show me YOUR model. Show me a physics based model that has undergone peer review that shows how that can happen. If it was possible someone surely would have done it by now, but they can't so they just rely on spreading doubt and misinformation. This point is made brilliantly by Dr. Richard Alley in this interview beginning at 18:15, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Warming_Policy_Foundation

 

[jimw1960]

Here is a good discussion of why it is near impossible to change someone's mind with facts if they have already incorporated their belief into their world view. I can see a lot of this going on here. You present someone with facts, but they just cling even more strongly to their beliefs and look for "evidence" (such as articles on the GWPF website) to enforce their belief that your "facts" are part of some global conspiracy. This is why it is pretty much impossible to persuade a climate science denier no matter how many facts are on your side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9It19FHt50g

And another one on how deniers will attack and threaten scientists whose research threatens their world view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeSNhayqGcI

I think from now on, when confronted by a denier, I'm not going to bother trying to explain anything about how climate actually works, because it only reinforces their belief to the contrary. Instead, I'm just going to say, "Show me your model."

 

[Joseph C.]

Australia's Chief Scientist

More like Chief speculator/spin doctor.

Yeah, let's all pretend that Australia isn't getting warmer.

The sub-continent is almost one degree hotter than it was in 1910. And let's face it - we're still burning fossil fuels at enormous rates - Australia is only going to get hotter. How dare they spend money in preparation for the upcoming droughts.

It's a pity other countries are not as prudent.

 

[Hillhater]

........the warming trend caused by carbon emissions.

...Ahh ! ...Here we go again with that dubious causal link !

if you want to keep contending that we can put 30 billion tons of CO2 into the air every year and NOT warm the climate, the show me YOUR model.

Just to be clear again,.. That is a 0.01% increase of CO2 in the atmosphere , which may or may not be contributing to any warming effect.
..and you are still thinking in terms of "models" Rather than real world global effects !

 

[Hillhater]

Yeah, let's all pretend that Australia isn't getting warmer
. How dare there they spend money in preparation for the upcoming droughts.

It's a pity other countries are not as prudent.

Prudent ?
You think spending billions on a redundant system that uses MW of electricity to sit idle until it's outdated or super ceded because some "scientists" predicted there would never be enough rain to fill dams ever again ?
That's not "prudent" , that's knee jerk dumb decision making....sadly typical of much of this debate.!

And "upcoming droughts" ?..
We have permanent droughts here,in all states ! Often combined with devastating widespread floods ! Covering areas bigger than the country you live in !
This is not new, Australia has historically been a land of extreme weather events.
Example.. On an outback road we got our ( serious off road ) 4 WD bogged in " bull dust" section ( road feet deep in powder like dust, which took us hours of digging and winching to get out.
The very next day, we could not return on that road because the whole area was feet deep with flood water ! ( and this was not a river bed either !)

 

[Joseph C.]

Prudent ?
You think spending billions on a redundant system that uses MW of electricity to sit idle until it's outdated or super ceded because some "scientists" predicted there would never be enough rain to fill dams ever again ?
That's not "prudent" , that's knee jerk dumb decision making....sadly typical of much of this debate.!

Look's pretty prudent to me.

Five years ago your levels of water storage in Australia was above 70 per cent of total capacity. In the preceding five years that's fallen to below 60 per cent. Overall the water levels seem to be going in one direction and it isn't up.

What's money when you have no water?

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

 

[Hillhater]

.?? You info is wrong ( from a GW source ?) ..
Our cup runeth over, ! ..literally . Dams are overflowing ..so much so that they flooded large areas of Brisbane when they were forced to release water from the main storage dams before they burst the dam walls !
The only problem Australia has is a lack of vision for infrastructure. There is enough rainfall in the North and East coast to turn this whole continent into a salad bowl if they could just stop petty squabbling over details, in build the infrastructure to distribute the water in the way China is building new rivers for the same reasons .

 

[Joseph C.]

.?? You info is wrong ( from a GW source ?) ..
Our cup runeth over, ! ..literally . Dams are overflowing ..so much so that they flooded large areas of Brisbane when they were forced to release water from the main storage dams before they burst the dam walls !
The only problem Australia has is a lack of vision for infrastructure. There is enough rainfall in the North and East coast to turn this whole continent into a salad bowl if they could just stop petty squabbling over details, in build the infrastructure to distribute the water in the way China is building new rivers for the same reasons .

That's an official government website so those numbers are correct. If you go filter by graph for the entire country you will see the declining trends.

Brisbane and Sydney are the only two areas where water is up from the previous year indicating localised weather patterns.

Overall the entire country is down - Perth is currently the worst at just 23.8 per cent of total capacity. There might be a perception that water is currently abundant in Australia but that's not the case at all.

If those trends continue, and it is likely they will, you will have serious water problems in a few years and those desalination plants will be badly needed.

Edit: Click on the link its Australia's Bureau of Meteorology. I hate to disappoint but the scientists are correct.