Improving motorist/cyclist relations

[John in CR]

If what we read and see online is true relations between motorists and cyclists have definitely gone down hill in some parts of the world. Judging by the attitudes I've seen on both sides they're likely to get worse without some change, and good opportunities are being passed up. Take for example Critical Mass group rides. While I'm sure they're fun for participants, since there's no message, the result is more friction from drivers. CM is a missed opportunity that does more harm than good.

Complaining does nothing except to reinforce negative attitudes of those in the same group. I believe prevention is the best cure for any ill, and while I personally use speed and acceleration to achieve safety through distance, avoidance has little impact on fixing relations. A courteous rider has limited impact, because one bad apple or one crazy youtube video can spoil the bunch the same as one crazed bus driver intentionally ramming a cyclist can.

So what can we do? How about bringing it up in the conversation of any mixed group? It's an interesting topic of conversation that many will have strong feelings about, and the beauty of it is that unlike politics or religion you can actually change minds. Coming across like Chalo won't be productive, and I've seen plenty of pent up anger from cyclists toward motorists, so care to avoid anger is warranted, including the too common almost militant cyclist attitude. It makes for interesting conversation, because their perceptions of cyclists are as wacky as some of ours about them. No sane person wants to run over someone, so we can use it as an opportunity to plant 3 ideas:
1. Cyclists have a right to be on the road just as much as any car. Go into the law and history if necessary.
2. Each cyclist means 1 less car and therefore less traffic.
3. Cyclists are completely unprotected. Those silly helmets are almost meaningless, especially when the majority of serious heat injuries in cycling are injuries to the face. That means what would be a small fender bender with another car can easily kill a cyclists. They need to treat a cyclist as a fast moving pedestrian.

1 and 2 are just foundation to get them to agree that it's okay for cyclists to be on the road, and they should welcome them. #3 is where you can hit them with techniques that they're so effective that it's not fair. Who cares about fair? This is fixing a problem. Now you've already agreed with them regarding their complaints about cyclist blowing stop lights and stop signs, but it's motorist who are the real danger quoting Zoot Katz's stat that motorists are found at fault in 80% of car/bike crashes. Then you get them to see the cyclist as a pedestrian with wheels, and remind them how much better cyclists are than peds because they clear out of the way much quicker.

Now you pull out the big guns, because no sane person wants to kill someone. You've already had them accept how exposed a cyclist is, and now you have everyone close their eyes and imagine the slight bump of hitting a cyclist followed by the crunch of rolling over them. End it with "It's just like running over a person and something none of us ever want to experience." Now you've branded their brain with the image and sound and equated cyclists to completely unprotected pedestrians and have forever changed how they drive near cyclists whether it's a conscious effort or not.

John

 

[aroundqube]

Well said John. Organized cylcling clubs here have been working with raising community awareness, and asking local government for bike lanes.The problems first became worse as population increased. The more populated an area,the more vehicles and drivers claiming "their right to their own space". Then road rage became a result of competing for ones own space.Now to make it far,far worse we have the cell phone. Here you are more likely to be struck by a vehicle because the driver is not even aware that you exist. The New Jersey State Government passed laws against cell phone use while driving. People are using their cell phones now anyhow,and texting while driving too!

 

[amberwolf]

WHile I agree in general, around here the attitudes of drivers (the "you" in my following explanation) seem to be more along the lines that anything that is not "you and your own car" is in your way. The only reason more cars aren't endangered is because they are big enough to hurt your car, and actually make you stop because it won't continue down the road anymore. (that doesnt' evne deter some drivers, who hit other cars and continue on just like they do with pedestrians/etc.)

There is a very aggressive attitude among many of the drivers around here, with some places in town being much worse than ohters, and certain times of day as well. Unfortunately the police have even *more* aggressive driving attitudes in many cases, and so serve as a perfect example of what everyone thinks they can get away with, too. (and usually they do)

Earlier this week a man walking his dog in front of our store, in the parking lot, (presumably going to or from his car) was hit by a driver rushing thru--AFAIK they didnt' evne stop, from what others said (I didn't see it, as I was helping someone near the back of the store). By the time I foudn out about it the ambulance was already there and had loaded him up; someone else had taken temporary custody of the dog. I dunno what happened to the man, if he's ok or not, or what injuries he sustained. But there have always been numerous near-misses every week, and during the winter holiday season there are collisions between cars and other things (cars, motorcycles, cyclists, pedestrians, walls, curbs, carts, signs, etc) mulitple times a week in just that parking lot and the roads near the exits.

Sometimes the police have to block off one of those roads to clear the mess, and usually there are several drivers taht attempt to go around or thru the police standing there waving them off, banging on their hoods to make them stop! (which does not always work, and soemtiems there are secondary collisions of people trying to go around, as they head into opposing traffic to do it.)


It is simply becuase poeple in general are impatient, and believe that their time is worth more than someone else's life (or, I suspect in many cases, that they don't even put *that* much thought into it, and simply do whatever they feel like, ignoring anything aroudn them that isn't directly in their way, and bulling their way thru anything that is).


It's peculiar, this attitude.... Some time ago, I was having a talk with someone that was interested in my CrazyBike2, while I was loading up my groceries. He wanted to build one, (an ebike, not one as crazy as mine), and when I mentioned things like the 20MPH speed limit, and that riding in traffic on the roads is the only really safe way to do it becuase of how people in all traffic modes deal with sidewalks/etc., and how he might want to do certain things at intersections and so on, he basically said that bikes dont' deserve to be on the road, and are in the way of the cars, so they *should* be run over if theyr'e in somoene's way. Then he said he'd just build his bike to go faster than the cars, and run over anyone that got in his way. I told him not to expect anyone to help him with his project, especially me, because that attitude is disgusting and stupid, and it surprised him--somehow even after all we'd just talked about, he thought I would agree with him? I told him to go away and leave me alone after that, becuase I could see I was never going to get thru to him--he had NO concept of sharing the roads with anyone--not even someone else with the same mode of transportation as him, whatever that might be.

And that is a common attitude around here. When I encounter it in discussions, people are always surprised that others arent' all exactly like them, as if they are in competition for their space on the road. And almost none of them will listen to any kind of discussion about it--it is the wya it is and that's that, as far as they are concerned. A few seem to see the light and start changing their attitude, or at least consider that it might be possible that another attitude could even exist.

Some poeple are different--but many are like that, maybe even most are. I'd be afraid to see the results of a survey. I try not to even bring it up anymore, becuse it just brings out the haters. If people stop to talk about the bike, I talk just about the technical bits, and where necessary the laws concerning them.


Maybe I will try discussing it the way you describe, particularly the last paragraph, and perhaps it will get thru to them. Somehow, though, I am not convinced they have enough imagination to get the concept, or patience to listen to it.

 

[full-throttle]

If a picture is said to be worth a 1,000 words, what's a video worth?
[youtube]XbN5gTv89N0[/youtube]
These are some of my personal experiences. While I could possibly tolerate cars pulling out in front, being overtaken like that has no excuse.

How to fix the problem:
Short term - stay off the roads
Long term - wear a camera

 

[melodious]

I've a dumb idea but it might work. It revolves around babies. People LOVE babies. Who'd want to hurt an adorable, innocent baby?

Okay, here is the idea. Put a child seat on your rear rack minus the baby. You'd sacrifice aerodynamics but many of us here are in the 20-50mph electric club, so no biggie. You'd also sacrifice a bit of kWh as well, but many of us here have plenty left over after a typical commute; also, no biggie. Drivers would know you as the "bicyclist with the baby on board". I'm willing to bet vehicles will begin to take notice of you.

 

[Arlo1]

Your on the right track John. We will need to catch these people at the right time and say just the right thing to some of them others it will hit home easier and some will just stay stuborn and stuck in the mud of there wrong ways. I would say some things at the end like NOW imagine that's your kid or you neice or nephew or someone close who is trying to get into shape etc. So many nerves to hit so they will imagine it even better. It would be cool to make a commercial with ICBC here in BC but unfortunatly that would be less likely to work as I HATE ICBC and I here most others do as well. But it would be nice to get a message out to masses at once.

 

[John in CR]

Full-throttle,

Thanks for sharing the montage. That reinforces my opinion that pathways are no place I want to ride....too many unpredictable obstacles. On the road I think you'd be happier if you reduce your expectations. If everyone is an asshole who inconveniences you or makes you use your brakes, then that's an unrealistic expectation. If it was clear sailing behind you, then yes some of those turning in front and blocking your way should have waited, but not something to get bent out of shape.

The only thing I saw really wrong were the few who passed and then forced you to brake. I think you'd do yourself a favor by anticipating those situations more in advance. A bit more power would probably help, but the way I'd approach it is to make the pass/no pass decision for them. Know they're coming and either speed up to prevent them from getting the position on you, or slow down and let them go earlier. Maybe I'm missing something with no sound on my computer right now.

I'm not accustomed to roadways like that. Is that a bike lane that ends before each of those little jogs to the left, or is that a full lane that curves left a bit before the intersection and back right after it? From the looks of it, they got the position on you. Sure some cut it way too close, but position is everything, and you being out of position in terms of speed and position in the lane(s) in advance of the intersection gave them the opening to gain the position on you.

Try this on you next ride. Make sure you always aware of what's behind, and try maximize the space between you and all cars. I feel the most vulnerable to getting smacked from behind, so I open up tremendous space, which gives me the full road to maneuver to avoid traffic coming from a side street, and with no one near then I have no worries while slowing to make a turn.

Look on the bright side, yes there were some mistakes on their part, but none of them were out to kill you, so don't let it stop you from riding.

John

 

[John in CR]

Your on the right track John. We will need to catch these people at the right time and say just the right thing to some of them others it will hit home easier and some will just stay stuborn and stuck in the mud of there wrong ways. I would say some things at the end like NOW imagine that's your kid or you neice or nephew or someone close who is trying to get into shape etc. So many nerves to hit so they will imagine it even better. It would be cool to make a commercial with ICBC here in BC but unfortunatly that would be less likely to work as I HATE ICBC and I here most others do as well. But it would be nice to get a message out to masses at once.

Those are good ideas too. If the attitude really exists that they think bikes don't belong on the road, that's unacceptable, and whatever has gone on hasn't worked. It's a big elephant and the only way to eat one is one bite at a time, and the more directions we come from, the more likely it will succeed.

 

[Arlo1]

Your on the right track John. We will need to catch these people at the right time and say just the right thing to some of them others it will hit home easier and some will just stay stuborn and stuck in the mud of there wrong ways. I would say some things at the end like NOW imagine that's your kid or you neice or nephew or someone close who is trying to get into shape etc. So many nerves to hit so they will imagine it even better. It would be cool to make a commercial with ICBC here in BC but unfortunatly that would be less likely to work as I HATE ICBC and I here most others do as well. But it would be nice to get a message out to masses at once.

Those are good ideas too. If the attitude really exists that they think bikes don't belong on the road, that's unacceptable, and whatever has gone on hasn't worked. It's a big elephant and the only way to eat one is one bite at a time, and the more directions we come from, the more likely it will succeed.

Yes so...
Here is my problem I never really get a chance to talk to those people. Most of the ignorant drivers that hate bicycles are long gone. I almost chased one guy down and drug him out of his truck when I was riding my scooter a couple years ago and he tried to run me off the road on purpose I was doing the speed limit actuly 5 over and her had a whole other lane empty.... A cop turned on just after so.... My thoughts instanly were all the women I know who ride scooters and it he did that they might get spooked and crash just because he had to be an ass! If I could get to know him and talk to him about that maybe show him when his kids get older (if he has kids) they will likely be trying to use a cheep form of transport to get started in life and would he want someone doing shit like that?

So yes how do we get more calm face time with these people?

 

[John in CR]

Yeah, I don't know. With face time with a real bike hater, I'd spend the time trying to understand where it came from. Maybe after getting to the bottom of it, then you might have some success with a play on emotion.

Fear might work too. That's where being armed with a video camera can help play a big role. How can we get the point across in that brief encounter that everything is recorded and aggressive or threatening moves with a car against a bike is assault with a deadly weapon from a legal standpoint? Maybe get some cards printed up "Welcome to The List" that let's them know their license plate is now in a database, with date time and one or more witnesses. Only that first offense gets off with a warning, and subsequent offenses will be pursued both through and outside of the judicial system.

 

[MadRhino]

I chose to ignore them. Even when they just been close to kill me with their stupidity, I give them a look and fly. I have no time to waste in trying to educate car drivers. Half of them are becoming psychopaths anyway, as soon as they are behind a steering wheel. People that are normal, polite and respectful in their life, turn into crazy assholes in their car. One of my ex wives was like that, and I was amazed at how different she was when driving.

One can't educate Mr jekyll not to turn into Mr Hyde, the solution has to be some sort of chemical.

 

[MattyCiii]

I've a dumb idea but it might work. It revolves around babies. People LOVE babies. Who'd want to hurt an adorable, innocent baby?

Okay, here is the idea. Put a child seat on your rear rack minus the baby. You'd sacrifice aerodynamics but many of us here are in the 20-50mph electric club, so no biggie. You'd also sacrifice a bit of kWh as well, but many of us here have plenty left over after a typical commute; also, no biggie. Drivers would know you as the "bicyclist with the baby on board". I'm willing to bet vehicles will begin to take notice of you.

Not a bad idea.
I've thought about getting a child seat rack, then making a fiberglass "baby" shaped trunk bag. The head (complete with helmet) would be on a bit of a spring like a bobble head, to realistically bounce a bit wit rough road surfaces.

 

[John in CR]

I chose to ignore them. Even when they just been close to kill me with their stupidity, I give them a look and fly. I have no time to waste in trying to educate car drivers. Half of them are becoming psychopaths anyway, as soon as they are behind a steering wheel. People that are normal, polite and respectful in their life, turn into crazy assholes in their car. One of my ex wives was like that, and I was amazed at how different she was when driving.

One can't educate Mr jekyll not to turn into Mr Hyde, the solution has to be some sort of chemical.

LOL! I like that analysis, though I'd argue that Dr. Jekyll can have some subconscious effect on Mr. Hyde's actions. That's why I like the idea of us bringing the topic up in casual group conversation away from the road. At the very least it will make for interesting discussion.

If it's true that things have gotten worse, then it's reasonable to expect it to get worse still, because no change will come if we don't force it. Getting mad about it is likely to add to the problem, but getting mad enough to force common sense change is what we need.

 

[Kingfish]

+10 full-throttle; seeing that in spades every day. Sometimes I get the angry driver behind me too, honking their horn when I’m doing the speed limit. :x

Personally I’m for just adding a camera front and rear so that when my remains are picked up off the road the cops will have video evidence of the culprit that ran me over. Briefly looked at GoPro at CycleGear last month; I have no experience in bike cams, but would appreciate a recommendation or thread that covers the subject so we don’t get too far OT.

Thanks, KF

 

[rjoe]

+10 full-throttle; seeing that in spades every day. Sometimes I get the angry driver behind me too, honking their horn when I’m doing the speed limit. :x

Personally I’m for just adding a camera front and rear so that when my remains are picked up off the road the cops will have video evidence of the culprit that ran me over. Briefly looked at GoPro at CycleGear last month; I have no experience in bike cams, but would appreciate a recommendation or thread that covers the subject so we don’t get too far OT.

Thanks, KF

+1 on the camera thread

 

[John in CR]

+10 full-throttle; seeing that in spades every day.

You guys need the ability to out accelerate them to gain space, and learn how to claim position on the road with the space you create. Being quicker than they are keeps you from being an inconvenience too, so they're happier, and for those in a hurry you chose the right time to move to the side and allow the pass.

Also, add movement in your lane to your repertoire. I don't mean weaving like drunk, though that is almost always effective to back off those following too close. Much of the time I do it to make myself more visible, and for those behind you appear unpredictable and they give you more space. I think a lot of Full-throttle's late passes could be eliminated with this technique. Even if they don't care about hurting you, at a minimum they still don't want the inconvenience of a crash or scratches on their car.

As far as horns go, those who ride their horns should always be met with the opposite of what they are trying to achieve, and make it clear that honking caused the slowing or additional delay. That's how you break that habit. Horns are for emergency alert purposes only, and is otherwise just offensive noise pollution.

 

[Kingfish]

I hear you on horns; often too little too late.

My M.O. is to have roving eyes: one in the rear-view mirror (left or right) and one on the road ahead. If no one is behind me, I’ll take the road over the margin. If there’s room to the right, I’ll move over to let traffic by; I have no problem with that. If there is no shoulder – sorry Charlie… I’ll be out of the way as soon as possible – even if I have to take a pullout to let you by; no problem with that either.

As such my bike tops out about 36 mph. I could use the over-clock current setting to take me above 45 mph, but that’s wasteful and not nearly as fun. I’m a bike, not a motorcycle; I have to behave like a bike if traffic moves faster. I don’t have a problem with that. Much as I'd like more speed - it's not going to happen with this frame; I'd rather do a whole new build with all the cool stuff :wink:

Frankly I struggle with aholes in metal vehicles that overtly use them as weapons of road superiority. The only rational non-violent solution I can think of is to document their behavior, and if the threat was extreme, seek civil prosecution. Swearing like a sailor helps, but it doesn’t get these fools off the road. The only other defense I could think of is to wear body armor. :|

~KF

 

[John in CR]

Not necessarily more speed, but if more gets you pacing traffic then by all means yes. You simply cross paths with far fewer cars. Try the lateral movement thing while they're still a good distance behind, and see them give you more space, it's natural to want to steer clear of something less predictable, just like cars distance themselves from a drunk driver.

I also use lateral motion to help ensure cars entering from the sides ahead see me. Even though I'm typically far out ahead and alone, it's still easier to miss seeing something so small. Think about the cars they miss seeing and crash. The lateral motion is a movement that makes you far more noticeable, like a wave "Here I am, so make a good decision about whether to go or not. That lateral movement also give more spacial queues so they can better judge your speed as being much faster than a pedal bike. Riding in a straight line is no good in terms of safety, except when someone is next to you, and I try to minimize that time as much as practical....Next to a car, or especially a bus or truck, no thanks, so I keep those durations down to a second or 2 except at very low speed where there's no way they can drift and squash me.

John

 

[hydro-one]

yeah , i like johns mind control "treatment" but i also agree with madrhino, the cure has to be some kind of chemical, mabye the love drug or weed (works for me). I turn into a maniac when i get behind the wheel of anything, thats why ebikes have become a happy medium for me. the danger to me and others is minimized.

Keep your eyes open , keep your escape routes planned, and stay off the main road, find a nice back road or scenic route....

people often think trice about messing with someone with a fullface helmet. if they cant see your face they might be a little more scared of you,. also try wearing blue and white , cop like outfits. also have a very police like reflector on your bike. this helps in profiling you , you will gain much respect from them .

my buddy has a white kona ebike and a white bucket and it looks like it should say police across the front , cars give him lots of room. i myself mistook him for a cop on a bike. which isnt uncommon to see in summer

 

[Kingfish]

my buddy has a white kona ebike and a white bucket and it looks like it should say police across the front , cars give him lots of room. i myself mistook him for a cop on a bike. which isnt uncommon to see in summer

That happened to me as well with the black and white fairing, white helmet and dual Blinkies: The gal pulled over right in front of me! Arrrg :x :lol:

Seriously - I had been considering swapping out the white for canary-yellow (like I had for the last "P0" fairing) so it wouldn’t happen again.

Last Wednesday I was off towards CycleGear in Lynnwood, WA, and right as I was heading through the heart of Redmond a Motorcycle Cop yelped his horn to get through the intersection and pulled in right behind me. “Crap!” I thought – here I’ve gone over 3000 miles on this 2WD and have NEVER been pulled over before. I tried not to act nervous… then I heard him snicker “he's got a propeller on the back…” The signal light turned green so I faked like I HAD to pedal the bike hard ...and he blew right past me. <big sigh> That was a close one. :wink:

The Propeller is nearly clipped out of the frame all the way to the right.
I tell people who ask that it's a "Diametric Coriolis Inductive Regenerator"

Breakin' the Law! KF

 

[John in CR]

The last cop to pull along side of me was a few weeks ago, a pair of regular cops on their typical dirt/street crossover 125's (I think). They were gawking and smiling, and we're doing maybe 20mph with nothing but open road ahead. I asked the one in front "carrera?", race in spanish, and gave him the hit the throttle signal, and he did!, so I felt completely at liberty to hit mine. It was over so quickly it almost wasn't fun...almost. I let off the throttle when I hit 50 with a 40-50ft lead, since it wasn't an appropriate road for really high speed and we went thru the sweet spot of my acceleration anyway. They pulled back along side smiling and eyes like saucers, nodded bye, and took off to go hassle a teenager they saw wheelie from a stop sign while crossing the street we were on.

There's some transit cops that live nearby. I see them on their motos all the time, but I haven't worked up the nerve to challenge one and that big highway cruiser. I'm sure I could get them for the first 100m, but I don't know about the 2nd. Plus while they see me on the road, I don't think I want them to know my bike's real capability.

John

 

[gestalt]

I would like to see video cameras on bikes as common as dash cams are in Russia. Have a website where people upload videos of dangerous drivers behavior to words cyclists. Organize it by license plate number and forward it to the authorities based on frequency or severity. Call it "douchetube"

 

[The fingers]

IMHO, if the lycra packs would ride single file and stay within the bike lane motorists would be more considerate of all cyclists.

 

[HAROX]

IMO if you spent a day here, you'd understand cyclist "relations" completely, John

 

[John in CR]

IMO if you spent a day here, you'd understand cyclist "relations" completely, John

Doubtful since I'd ride the same kind of machine I do here. ie I'm not riding around presenting myself as a slow moving target, especially to idiots in cages who drive like they got license at a Kmart blue light special.

note- If "idiot" is still politically correct, then revise my wording to "idiot-retards", because I feel compelled to help desensitize the overly sensitive who have somehow been put in charge.