Kudos Build II

[kudos]

OK, So I couldn't wait to get this sucker on the road to see what 82V 40A is like, so I strapped 20S to the handlebars to give her a maiden shake down.

OK first the good news, 20S is awesome. On my last run with voltage down to 78V the APM recorded 49mph, I'll have to re-check with GPS etc but I think this setup can get me into the 50mph club.
Checked the controller and motor after 8 speed runs or so and still very cool to the touch.

The bad news. There is a strange issue with the controller I think. Basically if you turn the throttle and keep it turned it works just fine, but the moment you back off the throttle to zero then turn the throttle on again you get nothing, nothing that is until you get down to about 5/6mph then it kicks in again.

I have no idea what's going on, I didn't have this with my other Crystalyte controller. I will have to post a separate query in the forum to get some attention on this because it's not usable in the current situation. I can't keep stopping just to get the throttle to work.

Any input gratefully received.

Kudos

 

[winkinatcha]

Hey Mate,

sorry I know nothing about your controller issues

BUT Frocking Awesome that You've got the Build On The Road

50mph!! yee Hah!




Joe

 

[kudos]

Good news!

Seems to have been a low voltage cutoff issue.

The APM doesn't seem to handle high voltages the way it should, let me explain.

I charge my lipo to 4.10V and make sure I discharge to no more than 3.65V (from Dogman's advice) although I very rarely let it get that low usually 3.8ish.

so a quick calculation means 3.65 x 20 = 73V LVC

When you set the APM you have to set a system voltage of 36/48/72/84.

I'm using a 7240 Controller so I set the system voltage to 72, however, the problem there is that my LVC is above the system voltage of 72, so I had to set my LVC as close to 72 as possible without going over which turned out after a bit of experimentation to be 71.3V.

It was this setting that seems to have cause the problem. By setting this down to the next lowest default which is something like 56Vish the problem went away.

I need to play some more, maybe I should be setting the system voltage to 84V, but the issue there is that straight away I'm 2V under the system voltage because I don't charge to 4.2V so the fuel guage reading is wrong.

Either way it's now working as it should.

The only other thing I notice is that under hard acceleration the sensorless controller seems to lose sync for a 'notch' or two making a kind of stutter, certainly much less pronounced after changing LVC though.

Kudos

 

[Cargo_Tom]

What a sexy beast!

 

[kudos]

OK, first of all I totally retract my claim of 49mph.

Upon closer investigation I noticed that the APM's speed reading goes haywire and does not read any where near true.

I did a few runs with a GPS and to be honest I have no idea how fast this will go, I gave up at 35mph-ish (which happens to be the maximum legal speed on my Island) which I decided was plenty fast enough for a initial run.

I'm still not comfortable that the rear wheel is running right and until then I don't want to go WOT and tucked!

I've ordered one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290756657298?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648#ht_635wt_1163

To see how it looks for attaching the APM centrally, should be here soon.

Kudos

 

[PPO]

Hi,

I was also thinking of building a system with H3450 and 72V lipo batteries.
I saw you had first the system running on 48V and could drive 30MPH.
But what is the total distance that you could drive? And how many batteries did you had at 48V?
2packsx6S at 5AH parallel with 3 sets for 15AH?

Thanks for the info.

 

[kudos]

Hi PPO,

Yes originally I was using a 48V system using the 48V 40Amp Crystalyte sensorless controller.

I was charging to 4.10V on my LiPo meaning 49V hot off charger.

I have been using four 6S 4500MaH packs with two in parallel and two in series to give 12S 9Ah.

Although this will get you over 30mph I usually find I travel around 20-22mph on average.

The longest ride I usually do is around 12miles with a big hill in the middle, I do very lightly pedal too and I usually get back with a little bit in reserve.

So it all depends on the distance you need to go really.

Kudos

 

[PPO]

Ok, thanks.
I have a new job near to home but it is still 18 miles; So 36 miles in totale.
So I have to go to 8x2packs of 6S for 20AH.
But I want to go also faster in my free time.
Than I can reconfiger to batteries to have 72V.
But than I need another controller.
Do you know a good controller?
I see also a lot of different chargers.
Wich charger do you recommend so I can charge at 48V and 72V?

 

[icecube57]

Ok, thanks.
I have a new job near to home but it is still 18 miles; So 36 miles in totale.
So I have to go to 8x2packs of 6S for 20AH.
But I want to go also faster in my free time.
Than I can reconfiger to batteries to have 72V.
But than I need another controller.
Do you know a good controller?
I see also a lot of different chargers.
Wich charger do you recommend so I can charge at 48V and 72V?

..Looks blankly at PPO.

 

[kudos]

PPO, you might be better to post your query as a separate thread in the forum, there are so many ways to do what you're asking for.

As a quick suggestion, I would re-charge your batteries at work.

I would use 6 x 6000maH Nano-Tech LiPo bricks in a 2 parallel 3 series giving you 12S 18Ah.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11941__Turnigy_nano_tech_6000mah_6S_25_50C_Lipo_Pack.html

I would buy a 2S3P LiPo harness from Ice57 on these forums.

I would use any of the iCharger series that do 6S batteries
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6792

I would use the 48V40A Crystalyte Sensorless Controller.
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16463&cat=296&page=1

This will get you the 18 miles to work with some spare as long as you don't go full throttle all the way.

Cheers,
Kudos

 

[kudos]

I'm copying a message here I had from Smudger, a lot of relevant and useful info in it.
----------------------
Thanks for dropping me a line,I do use the APM, I had some hassle setting mine up for my 20s lipo pack, ended up setting the voltage at 72v and LVC at 64v, all wrong, but that is all the APM would let me set, I am actually running at 82v off charge (4.10v per cell) and just watch the voltage drop, I go for a recharge around 73v ( 3.65v per cell) had no problems so far, bike is used daily.
I also had wrong speed readings, sussed that fitting much larger tyres ( 26x2.2) threw it well out, changed the wheel size on the APM to 27 inch which got it pretty spot on, confirmed by GPS apps, and a road test session at work with a mate driving a car alongside.
Had some serious grief with the Cystalyte throttle, started showing errors on the APM, and got very erratic in operation,junked it in the end, and just got hold of a generic throttle off eBay, worked much smoother, but, same as you I get a slight 'notchiness' for a second or 2 at certain speeds, really could do with a ' boffin set up' to get it correct, but I live with it.
I did run my controller at 45amps for a while, but calmed down a bit now, now set at 25amps, good for 35mph on the flat, at 45amps it was crazy,I work on a huge Water Utility site, plenty of straight and quiet roads,took my charger to work to get max volts in the pack, done 2 runs, 1st run down 54mph,2nd run up 52mph, GPS read 55.6mph and 53.2mph, I decided I will probably get myself in trouble with this set up, and the range went right down, so I restricted it.
Have another bike for the 'Winter' project, a Kona Coiler, plan in to mount all lipo's in the 'triangle' and fabricate some covers, will be total strip and rebuild/repaint.

------------------

 

[kudos]

Mounted the Crystalyte APM on the headtube caddy mount, so now it's central where I like it.

I'm not sure I like how much it sticks up though. Ideally I'd use a thinner headset that would allow the APM to straddle it directly and attach to the bar.

This project is stalling a bit because:

The weather has turned
I'm short of spare cash coming up to xmas
I'm struggling a bit to come up with a clean way of mounting the batteries

I do have a halo sas rim which I need to send off to Crystalye Europe to have a 3540 laced into it. They quoted me 60 Euros but I'm not sure yet if thats 60 plus the price of the motor or 60 plus the price of the motor in wheel.

I'd love to be able to build my own wheels but I'm not feeling brave enough just yet. Something to learn next year methinks.

Kudos

 

[winkinatcha]

Wow, love that"caddy mount"... never seen the like... it's sweet.

Just an idea... You could possibly use the hardware that comes for mounting baskets n handlebar bags as a base to mount the APM

I bought a bunch of these at an auction a while back, and still have a few left...






View attachment 1


Pop me a PM with yer address if ya want, and I can send over a couple, might take a while with international shipping n all but I'd be happy to oblige, n no never mind if it is a crap solution or you hack em to bits

Yah battery mounting solutions... bane of my life...

Possible suggestion, put controller on a minimalist seat post rack (you've got a bit of room on the seatpost it looks like... n added advantage of instant mudguard ) n use TINY space for bats in tiny triangle + frame supported saddlebag style solution.... I am still to try this on my Norco Atomica... kinda sorta similar lack of space frame design, but is the area unto which I am leaning...

Just a thought anyways...

joe

 

[kudos]

Joe,

Huge apologies for not getting back to you after your kind offer.

This project has been on the back burner for months due to the terrible weather we've had so I hadn't even looked at the thread. The weather should turn in the next month or so, so I started looking at the bike again and saw your post.

Excuse the ramble that follows but I'm starting to have second thoughts about the setup of this bike. In fact even using this bike at all....

I wanted to go DD hub so that I could shove a load of power in and get high speed/ acceleration. However my HS3540 does not have halls and is run with sensorless controller. This is fine upto 48V but when you run higher like 80V the controller loses sync on hard acceleration, it's not a huge issue and I could live with it, it's just not ideal.

So, I could get a new HS3540 with halls and run a sensored controller, I had always intended on getting a new motor laced into a rim to match the front wheel which I have already bought. However, after running my Mac 10T on my pub bike for a year, I have to say i like the light weight, free-wheeling nature of the geared hub.

Although I like the idea of being able to 50mph which the HS3540 is capable of with the right setup, the reality is with a 35mph max speed limit on my island, I'm only ever likely to do this once or twice ever. I could always dial the power down of course.

I'm also feeling a little put off crystalyte seeing as my current HS3540 does not run true on its axle, it wobbles as it turns meaning I can't use a disc rotor. It's not a right off though, I can always use rim brakes so ill use it on another bike. Just annoying because these motors aren't cheap and I don't want to buy another one only to find its the same or worse, i need to use disc brakes on this bike.

So the temptation is to switch to a Mac8T and volt it so the max speed is 35mph.

Then there's the issue of when I'm going to actually use the bike. It's a great off road mountain bike that will not be used off road. That seems like a shame. It's too good to be used as a daily commuter/ pub bike because it'll get scratched up in bike parks, so it'll be a weekend bike. At the weekend I always do a lap of my island which is 24 miles with at least one decent hill, this means ill need at least 20Ah of batts which I won't be able to fit on frame where I wanted.

So everything seems like a compromise right now.

Perhaps I should just turn this bike back into a regular MTB and choose a different frame that can hold a lot of batts like the greyborg.

Undecided.

Kudos

 

[kudos]

OK well I finally decided to give this another go.

I've just ordered an upgraded 8T Mac with 12fet.

I think I'm going to house the LiPo between the cranks, nice and low. Probably run 14S.

I'll be using one of migueralliart TA's too.

Kudos

 

[winkinatcha]

it's alive!



Joe

 

[kudos]

Small update to this build.

The Mac 8T Upgraded arrived and was assembled.

I threw everything together and she turns so that always a good sign.

The motor is fixed in place with one of Miguellearts curly torque arms.

I had always intended to put the controller in the frame triangle, however, after seeing a few people mounting them from the back of the seat post I thought I would give it a go.

I have ordered up some of Miguellart's controller plates and a few bottle holder mounts.

The controller has two grommets with two sets of wires coming out, I plan to have each set of cables sheathed and routed down each side of the frame to keep it neat.

I'll probably have to cut the cables to length, remove the connectors and solder, something I've never done before.

Kudos

 

[winkinatcha]

Cool stuff man.

I reckon you'll be fine with customising the harness and doing all the soldering n stuff.

Personally I'd suggest maintaining connectors Somewhere between the controller and wheel for the halls and phase wires, ideally closer to the wheel for ease of removal. Andersons are the bomb for the phase wires, no specific recommendation for the halls, you might be able to use the existing connectors that come with the controller and wheel, cutting them off with reasonable length wire still attached, then reattach closer to the wheel, somewhere easy to tie back to the swingarm.

I always feel a bit in awe of customising and permanently changing a wire harness for a build.... kinda cements as a finished singular vehicle.... Not a bad thing... but sometimes hard to wrestle with... no more fiddling and tweaking??... wierd...

Joe

 

[1KW]

[/quote]


You are very lucky sir! Im sure living by the ocean does get old after a bit?

 

[kudos]

I've been removing the huge white connectors that come with the Mac kit and replacing them with the standard jst 2.5 xh connectors.

This has been a major PITA. Difficult, frustrating, finicky and something I'm not keen on doing again anytime soon.

So far I've replaced all but the hall wire connector, but I'm not sure I can face trying to crimp those super thin wires.

I'm thinking of using spiral wrap to hold all the wires but even with only one white connector it still looks like a snake digesting a meal.

Kudos

 

[winkinatcha]

Snake digesting a meal... cool analogy

I've used removable DH chainstay protectors (flexy material with velcro enabling you to make a "tube" around the chainstay to stop dings n stuff from chain slap...) They work well, I thin grin Cycles sells similar dedicated wire wrapping sleeves....
With the hall wires, they are only carrying signal voltage, you don't need huge connectors for em...

With the halls, if instead of using connectors, you cut the bastards off, strip about 1 cm of insulation from each wire, thread about 2cm of thin heat shrink on one side, twist like coloured wire from controller with like coloured wire from wheel. Fold back twist onto wire and slide heatshrink over twist join... heat heatshrink...
Conection will hold without problems and provides good contact during normal bike use... to "disconnect" apply firm pull on wire grasping wire either side of heat shrink covered join, and slowly apply more pressure, twist will un twist and wires seperate under hand applied tension... remove old heat shrink, add new, retwist and... all connected again.

joe

Edit: Oh and another think... If you "stagger" the connectors before you wrap them, you can get a "smoother tube" so to speak

 

[kiwiev]

Hi Kudos

that's a nice build I think you have just given me an idea to mount CA I never did like it off to the side of handle bar clamp I should be able to get a bolt thru the top of the head set cover and into the bottom of the CA

Cheers KIWI