Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Bullfrog]

Can anyone tell me the diameter of the spoke hole circle for the Leaf 1,500w motor?

I asked Leaf and they gave me the spoke length for two different rims but I am not using either rim.

E-HP posted something not too long ago but I haven't found it yet.

I need the circle diameter to calculate my spoke length unless somebody is running the SE Bikes J32S 24" rim and can tell me what spoke length I need .

Thanks

 

[Bullfrog]

I got all of my issues (speed limiting, display turning off, wheel diameter, PAS settings, etc.) resolved by programming via my S830 display...well everything except the controller amperage. My display says 29.0A max when I go wide open throttle from a standstill yet it is supposed to be a 40A controller and I have my display set for a max of 50A (highest setting available). I plan to do some testing on flat ground and then compare to the Grin Tech Motor Simulator to see how many amps I should be pulling at a given top speed and that should tell me how many amps my controller is actually putting out and whether the 29.0A is correct.

There are a bunch of youtube videos and web sites that have the manual for the S830 display...they are good resources to help you with programming a S830 display.

On roads that are not very flat, my top speed varies from a high of 39 mph with some downhill to 28 mph on a climb. I am guessing on level ground I'll get about 32 mph at least that is what the Grin Tech Motor Simulator says, actually 31.5 mph if I limit my battery amperage to 29A. It also says 34.5 mph if I am limited to 40A so it should be fairly simple to check once I find a flat road that is long enough to reach my top speed.

 

[yantra yatra]

Can anyone speak to relative benefits of getting one of these rather than a BBSHD (torque sensing M635)? It seems that with enough power they can power up hills no problems. Probably can also go faster.

I have to go up some longish and steep hills, but also want to go fast. Was planning on the mid-drive but think the hub would have a higher top speed. But combining speed and hill-climbing with the hub could be the challenge, making the HD a safer option

 

[E-HP]

Can anyone speak to relative benefits of getting one of these rather than a BBSHD (torque sensing M635)? It seems that with enough power they can power up hills no problems. Probably can also go faster.

I have to go up some longish and steep hills, but also want to go fast. Was planning on the mid-drive but think the hub would have a higher top speed. But combining speed and hill-climbing with the hub could be the challenge, making the HD a safer option

The BBSHD will go nice and slow up hills. They cruise nicely on the flats, but then need to downshift for steep hills, at which point they become a dot in my rear view mirror.
If you have a slow technical climb, the BBSHD would be superior.

 

[yantra yatra]

Not technical or slow climbs, just up roads in the range. Sounds like the leaf could do the job. I saw you are looking at building a mid-drive though, @E-HP , is that why you are getting one?

 

[neptronix]

Can anyone speak to relative benefits of getting one of these rather than a BBSHD (torque sensing M635)? It seems that with enough power they can power up hills no problems. Probably can also go faster.

I have to go up some longish and steep hills, but also want to go fast. Was planning on the mid-drive but think the hub would have a higher top speed. But combining speed and hill-climbing with the hub could be the challenge, making the HD a safer option

- 12lbs for a 1kw rated motor versus 16lbs for an almost 2kw rated motor with 8% higher efficiency is a no brainer.
- I have regenerative braking while descending that huge hill i climbed, the mid drive rider doesn't - that's a safety hazard for a high speed bike
- No constant bike drivetrain wear, only 1 rotating part, way less maintenance and stuff that could break.
- No funky pedal offset, maintains stock pedaling width.
- No problems getting a tall enough chainring to pedal at high speed.
- Costs less
- Absolutely kicks ass if you have a small wheel diameter or don't have prolonged >7% grades to worry about.

As for speed, I hit 59mph on the Leaf. The limiting factor of top speed was the wheelbase of the frame and the then state of the art for motor control technology ( couldn't tune out power wheelies ), so i never found out what the true maximum speed was.

PS i live in the mountains where we can have 5-15% grades for miles and miles. I wouldn't scale to the top of a mountain with a leaf unless i had a 20" wheel, but i was never nervous about less heroic feats with the leaf. It has an excess of available power and this helps offset the increased load during climbing.

 

[Bullfrog]

Can anyone speak to relative benefits of getting one of these rather than a BBSHD (torque sensing M635)? It seems that with enough power they can power up hills no problems. Probably can also go faster.

I have to go up some longish and steep hills, but also want to go fast. Was planning on the mid-drive but think the hub would have a higher top speed. But combining speed and hill-climbing with the hub could be the challenge, making the HD a safer option

IMO the BBSHD and the Leaf have two totally different operating environments if you plan to fully utilize their capabilty.

If you are going to ride off road any...I'd go with the BBSHD. It allows you to change gears and operate the motor in the efficient range at all speeds.

The Leaf will shine on the pavement if you want to cruise at speeds above about 28 mph...I would recommend some additional cooling like Statorade and Hub Sinks if you plan to run over about 35 mph for very long. The Leaf is too heavy for off road because it gives you a serious weight bias towards the rear and that affects the handling, braking, and ride quality.

On the pavement up to about 28 mph, I'd go with a MAC or a GMAC. You will enjoy the extra acceleration...the MAC/GMAC put out more torque/thrust per battery amp than any ebike motor currently available BUT they will over heat much easier than the Leaf if you push it above about 28 mph. The MAC/GMAC clutch and gears can handle a LOT of power so I wouldn't worry about that but if you hammer them hard off road riding over roots, there are some small parts inside the motor that can get knocked out of place.

I own a MAC, a Leaf, and a BBSHD powered bike and I use them exactly as I described above .

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I have to go up some longish and steep hills, but also want to go fast. Was planning on the mid-drive but think the hub would have a higher top speed. But combining speed and hill-climbing with the hub could be the challenge, making the HD a safer option

How fast do you want to go on flat ground?

One reason I ask is because with enough watts the leaf (especially with a small diameter tire) will climb surprisingly well. It's only when it is saddled with the stock 1500w controller (or something around the level of the stock controller) that the BBSHD will be the better choice for climbing. This because at stock watts (I.e. 48v x 40 amps) and with enough weight and enough slope grade the leaf will be climbing at a speed that is very inefficient for the motor. In contrast, a more powerful controller will allow the motor to be in a more efficient part of its operating range.

Notice how in the following example even though I am using the faster 4T winding* (vs. the default 5T winding) the 52v/60amp 35mm 4T motor actually climbs a 20% grade almost twice as fast and with much less battery consumption per kilometer than the 48v/40amp 35mm 5T motor:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

And that is just 60 amps at 52v. Increasing volts and/or amps widens the gap even further.

*4T at 48v/40amp with 26" tire is a worse climber than the 5T at 48v/40amp with 26" tire.

With that noted, I have wondered why people in this thread favoring high power configurations embrace the 7 speed Leaf 35mm over the single speed leaf 35mm? The Single speed 35mm is vastly superior to the 7 speed 35mm for so many reasons. This especially if a person wants to optimize motor performance through small diameter tires.

 

[yantra yatra]

Do you guys run torque sensors with the Leaf? I definitely want to go more than 28mph. Currently can pedal meaningfully along with the DM01 at 67km/h on a slight decline. But that motor has given up. The hills I climb are not too steep when extended. Typically riding 10-35km on country roads. To get places. So like decent speed (~60km/h+ on flats is great) and hill climbing ability.

Leaning towards the m635 as mids are what I know but would love to try one of these out. Having one of each would be great. Thanks for the input and info

Edit: it seems like apart from lack of familiarity the Leaf would be a good option, or a better option for me. But it opens up a new world of DIY’ing with controllers and battery specs that is a bit out of my comfort zone at the moment. Any go to advice on where to find these that would cover my needs? Decent speed and hill climbing ability, and range? Sometimes it would be good to go to the beach abut 20km’s away and back. Can you run 96v with the Leaf, with two 48v packs running together? I saw somewhere that the 1500w model can’t handle 96v but another Leaf motor can

 

[The Toecutter]

Do you guys run torque sensors with the Leaf?

I do. I use the Sempu with 68mm square-taper BB and a 115mm spindle width in both my mountainbike and trike. The mountainbike has a 4T wind Leafbike 1500W with a 7-speed cassette, and the trike has a 3T wind Leafbike 1500W with a 7-speed freewheel. I may upgrade the mountainbike to a front motor at some point as well for dual-wheel drive, and the trike is in the process of being upgraded to all-wheel drive in the hopes of trolling Hellcats.

For my Milan SL, I'm going to install a Grin all-axle with the torque sensing built into the motor itself, but that's not a Leafbike motor.

 

[999zip999]

Is there a leaf 40mm thread ?
Neptronic how much is the Mac 18fet controller ?
Leaf also has a CA option for it's controllers and Regen it no 3 SP ?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Personally...if my 35mm Leaf gets boring, I plan to go with a Crystalyte H+55100 motor.

145 Nm torque! At a weight of only 10 kg:

pmdc cc

This in contrast to the QS205 50H which is only rated 5 Nm more torque but it is listed at 14kg/15kg:

qs-motor.com – QS205 50H V3 3000W E-Bike Moped Hub Motor

I wonder why the QS 205 50H V3 weighs so much more? It's weight isn't that far off the QS 273 40H.

Seriously if I was going to build a 20" diameter tire wheel QS already made the choice for me and that is the QS 273.

Compare Q 273 with 14" 100/80 tire (tire diameter 20.3"):





To Q205 with 16" 80/80 tire (tire diameter 21.1")



P.S. Since this is the Leaf 35mm thread perhaps Leaf Bike should make a 273mm diameter stator version. In this way they can continue to reap the advantages of a perfectly centered single speed wheel on 135mm that works with fat tire and narrow q factor cranks. Wouldn't that be a great EU moped motor? Remember in the EU a moped has a 4000 continuous power limit. So there is plenty of room to add power for that class of ebike. Stealth B52s, a legal EU moped, also uses a powerful direct drive motor for this role:

STEALTH Electric Bikes Are Now Street Legal Mopeds in EU

Stealth electric bikes from Australia came to EICMA 2021. in style packing 2 NEW homologated electric mopeds, new 250W ebikes, and the older models! The company has shown city traffic-worthy versions of their popular electric

evnerds.com

 

[yantra yatra]

I do. I use the Sempu with 68mm square-taper BB and a 115mm spindle width in both my mountainbike and trike. The mountainbike has a 4T wind Leafbike 1500W with a 7-speed cassette, and the trike has a 3T wind Leafbike 1500W with a 7-speed freewheel. I may upgrade the mountainbike to a front motor at some point as well for dual-wheel drive, and the trike is in the process of being upgraded to all-wheel drive in the hopes of trolling Hellcats.

For my Milan SL, I'm going to install a Grin all-axle with the torque sensing built into the motor itself, but that's not a Leafbike motor.

Wow, sounds like you have some really cool bikes. I’d love velo with the rain here

 

[Bullfrog]

145 Nm torque! At a weight of only 10 kg:

pmdc cc

This in contrast to the QS205 50H which is only rated 5 Nm more torque but it is listed at 14kg/15kg:

qs-motor.com – QS205 50H V3 3000W E-Bike Moped Hub Motor

I wonder why the QS 205 50H V3 weighs so much more? It's weight isn't that far off the QS 273 40H.

Seriously if I was going to build a 20" diameter tire wheel QS already made the choice for me and that is the QS 273.

Compare Q 273 with 14" 100/80 tire (tire diameter 20.3"):


View attachment 352099


To Q205 with 16" 80/80 tire (tire diameter 21.1")

View attachment 352096

P.S. Since this is the Leaf 35mm thread perhaps Leaf Bike should make a 273mm diameter stator version. In this way they can continue to reap the advantages of a perfectly centered single speed wheel on 135mm that works with fat tire and narrow q factor cranks. Wouldn't that be a great EU moped motor? Remember in the EU a moped has a 4000 continuous power limit. So there is plenty of room to add power for that class of ebike. Stealth B52s, a legal EU moped, also uses a powerful direct drive motor for this role:

STEALTH Electric Bikes Are Now Street Legal Mopeds in EU

Stealth electric bikes from Australia came to EICMA 2021. in style packing 2 NEW homologated electric mopeds, new 250W ebikes, and the older models! The company has shown city traffic-worthy versions of their popular electric

evnerds.com

The Stealth bikes are using the Crystalyte H+55xx motor last time I checked.

The QS205 is the best motor for an ebike if you want to go fast and have the best reliability. It is heavy because it has a lot of copper in it and it is the best quality motor I know of if you want a big DD motor. IMO the QS273 is too big and heavy.

This article by @spinningmagnets covers the DD motors I'd consider: Five Large Hot Rod Hubmotors for Street E-bikes, the Double D’s

 

[Bullfrog]

Question for anyone running the S830 display....what value are you using for P07 which has something to do with the number of magnets in your motor? I know the 1,500w Leaf has 46 magnets but I did not annotate my settings before I started making changes and if 46 or 47 is good then when I set it to 100 it should be a little more than twice as good (insert emoji showing me being foolish here). I just don't know exactly how the controller uses the P07 information...does a higher value make it more sensitive or just make it wrong. You can play with the wheel diameter and the P07 value and they both affect what the speedometer reads.

I am trying to get my speedometer to match my GPS and so far I have gotten it close but I'd like to get it closer .

Thanks

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

The QS205 is the best motor for an ebike if you want to go fast and have the best reliability. It is heavy because it has a lot of copper in it and it is the best quality motor I know of if you want a big DD motor.

QS 205 is a great motor but with its 16mm diameter axle with 12mm flats and 150mm spacing needs a Stealth bomber, Qulbix raptor, Vector Vortex or similar type frame to use.

That massive thick axle is probably one of the reasons the QS 205 50H weighs so much more than the Crystalyte H+ 55xx which with its 137mm spacing likely uses a 14mm axle with 10mm flats.