LightningRods mid drive kit

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
You know in Pokemon where everything has like, 3 evolutions as they get badder and badder…
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🤣

I thought they were Synchronous-reluctance IPM? Or is that difference too minor to count?
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As I understand it that is a feature of the controller. People smarter than I in this area are discussing synchronous-reluctance controllers. Another great evolution of IPM, this in the rotor, is the Halbach array. There are companies that will make those rotors for you.
 
Yes every motor I sell now runs great with FOC controllers. Top end power is way up and rpm increases are amazing- 100% rpm increase at 50% field weakening. The old stuttering and surging issues with FOC went away completely with the new motors.
 
There are several minor variations of IPM motor, that's true. I was commenting on how the surface-mount permanent magnet motors are a design that is on their way out, and any well-researched PM motor design no longer considers surface-mount magnets.

Many different motors look the same from the outside, but LightningRods is using the latest best design on the insides.
 
john61ct said:
Also the best way to go for the low-end torque, heavy cargo climbing steep hills?
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From the reading I’ve done it was suggested that surface mount magnets might provide a bit more startup torque due to a larger permanent magnet diameter in a given rotor. Square wave controllers are also known for a big startup kick and then declining torque as rpm increases. What you would probably see real world is a quick jump from the surface mount motor and then the IPM would run off and leave it.
 
Yes since I plan to be running right up to the tolerance of the mechanicals, gearing etc

I think the smooth transitions are going to be at least as important as the power itself.

Don't like the idea of "jerky" at all
 
My initial motivation for making the move to sine wave was looking for smoother, flatter throttle response. Back in my square wave days I received constant customer complaints about the dead spot followed by huge kick on start up. The sine wave controllers are extremely smooth and linear. I can make a full lock turn and apply throttle mid turn. With 300A max power available! Try that at 60A with a square wave and it would punt you over the handlebars
 
I see LR has posted lip service to the Halback array.


"The results show that the Halbach Array configuration was the best performer, but the disparity in performance between the different magnet geometries was not that great." So maybe save your $$$?


See: https://www.duramag.com/techtalk/halbach-arrays/benefits-and-drawbacks-to-using-halbach-arrays/
 
Spinning magnets- I’ve never heard of any. Vad at PowerVelocity was talking up the virtues of the Halbach array so I did some reading and watched a few videos. Sounds pretty amazing and not all that difficult to manufacture. I found a couple of Chinese companies that will custom build these rotors. That’s as far as I’ve gotten.
 
I gotta ask LR; what's your background that led you to knowing how to make motors? I ask because I have a friend who partially feeds my interest in EV who wanted to start an E-moped venture idea, and I realized that as much as I idolize dudes like yourself or Cedric I have no concept of what knowledge base I'd have to start with. How did you "learn" to build motors in the first place?
 
I also have huge respect for the guys who can scratch build a motor. After assembling hundreds of them over the last ten years I could scratch build a motor, but I don’t. I buy the main components and make only the specific parts I need for my application. My training was as a commercial artist. My hobby has always been building fast cars and motorcycles. After 30 years of advertising work I decided to experiment with EVs. Other than asking smart friends questions and watching online how-to videos, I’m self taught.
Motors are pet rock simple compared to controllers. The guys who can build controllers from component bits are the ones who blow my mind.
 
LightningRods said:
I also have huge respect for the guys who can scratch build a motor. After assembling hundreds of them over the last ten years I could scratch build a motor, but I don’t. I buy the main components and make only the specific parts I need for my application. My training was as a commercial artist. My hobby has always been building fast cars and motorcycles. After 30 years of advertising work I decided to experiment with EVs. Other than asking smart friends questions and watching online how-to videos, I’m self taught.
Motors are pet rock simple compared to controllers. The guys who can build controllers from component bits are the ones who blow my mind.
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Ha! Good point on that; two of my best friends are python devs in the financial sector and their discussions leave me feeling like my head is just full of rocks, but then I do the same with emergency medicine to them :lol:

Have any books then that you could recommend, or sources you learned from?
 
Two things are required to learn: interest and humility. When you’re learning you feel stupid a lot.
I bought books back in the Analog Age to learn how to wire cars, motorcycles and houses. I’ve relied on the internet to learn about EVs. Endless Sphere has been a huge help. What I didn’t learn here directly I learned from people I met in here. There are so many excellent YouTube videos on any topic now. Unless you have all of the time in the world they’re a quick jump start.
 
Hi Mr. Rods, I'm in the market for a new mid-drive system and came across this thread.

Currently I have a BBS02 that works just fine, but it's showing its age and I'm planning to upgrade the system soon for more power anyway.

How much of a complete system do you provide with your kits? Motor and mounting hardware only? Controller? Throttle? Power cutoff brake sensors? Do you have a preferred battery vendor or do you leave that up to buyers?

I'll probably get a new frame to mount this all on because the current no-suspension road frame isn't going to cut it with more than 1kW of power. Are there any major frame choice limitations of your system?

I'll be using this bike to commute and run errands around town, and so far I've been really happy with how quiet the BBS02 is. How loud is your system in comparison? It's not apples-oranges because it appears yours is always set up with a fixed gear ratio, so the motor will be screaming fast at high ground speeds. I live in a very hilly area so I need to be able to power up steep hills and also cruise on flats.

I expect this kit will be more DIY than the current kit, but it looks like a fun and worthwhile project.
 
Hi David,
I’ve been working with the High Voltage Group www.highvoltagekits to provide plug and play high performance systems. They include controllers tuned for my motors, wiring looms, throttles, regen throttles, and displays. I don’t know about brake power cutoff switches. HV group also offers performance boosting controllers for the Bafang if you’re looking for a pedal assist. My belt primary drives are comparable to the Bafangs for noise. The chain primary drives make chain noise.
My least powerful motor (Small Block) is 2x the Bafang HD. The next one up (Big Block) is 4x as much power and pretty much the limit of what good DH bikes can stand. If you want to step up to a Qulbix or ELEEK frame, I have 13kW and 18kW motors. All of my drives are compatible with regen braking. The HV controller kits also support regen.
My drives are built simple and strong from premium materials. I prioritize performance, serviceability, simplicity over pedelec features like torque sensing PAS and other gadgets. Some users choose to add those kinds of accessories but that is definitely DIY. I also make complete high end single speed final drive lines using 219, 415H and 420 chain and custom made stainless steel sprockets. Comparing my drives to Bafangs really isn’t a comparison. It’s a decision about what type of mid drive you want.
 
A regular customer of mine found a LMX frame with a dead battery. Since LMX pilfered my old square wave motor years ago, my new IPM motors that are compatible with new high tech controllers like ASI will drop right in to the LMX frame. To their credit LMX did a good job designing their lightweight alloy frame. It weighs about half of what most Enduro type ebikes weigh. Here is what my 13kW IPM motor and an ASI BAC4000 will do in a LMX 161 bike.

https://youtu.be/8AnYikE9_vk
 
Thanks for the feedback LR.

I didn't realize that even your small block is that much more powerful that the Bafang options, I may need to reconsider some of the other design options given that much more power.

Most of the bells and whistles you listed aren't something I'm interested except the brake cutoff switch. I run my bikes as close to standard motorcycle controls as possible including a full twist throttle and use the left brake lever as the cutoff as if it were a clutch. I didn't have it at first and almost sent my bike into an intersection or two from accidental throttle input. Sounds like I'll need to contact High Voltage to get details on that.

I appreciate your focus on rugged and simple systems, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

How much do you charge for a small block system including sprocket and adapters? A ballpark number is fine, I just want to make sure I'm not looking into something that's 2-3x what I'm expecting. And do you have a rough idea of what a controller system from High Voltage goes for? Their shop only shows their BBSHD upgrade controller.
 
Hi David,
Sorry for the slow reply. I get saturated with social media occasionally and have to step away for a few. It was nothing about your post.
The small block drive with all of the mounts, ISIS BB, cranks, complete chainwheel with 219 primary is $650. I'm sorry that I can't really tell you what HV is going to charge for their kit for my motors. If you are happy with the power level of the BAC855 you can expect a very similar price to the Baf kit. I want to run the small block with a BAC2000 myself, but I doubt that it really needs the full 250 phase amps that the 2000 puts out. The BAC800 was puny but I hear that the 855 is more robust.
I've been off of the small block for a while. The new IPM version will be a different deal than the old external magnet motor. I have ten of them arriving in about two weeks. I'm going to have some fun with them and see what I can come up with. I got one of the last ELEEK Lite frames out of Ukraine before that turd Putin invaded. I'm thinking that the small block might be very happy on that frame.
The brake cut off switch is a simple circuit interruption switch. I'd think that you could wire one into the ignition circuit if the controller didn't provide an ebrake circuit. I commonly run both an ignition switch and handlebar kill switch on my builds. You can have as many interrupter switches in the circuit as you want. Any one of them goes open, the power shuts off.
Cheers,
Mike
 
Hi Mike,
Sorry for my own slow reply. I haven't checked back here in awhile. High Voltage was on vacation most of March so I wasn't able to get any info on controllers yet so I would have been waiting anyway.

When you've had a chance to test the new small blocks I'm very curious how their performance is.

As far as frames go, I'm thinking a fairly standard full suspension mountain bike might be my best bet. I don't plan on using a ton of battery so fitting one into the front triangle should be viable.

I'll have to ask HV about brake cutouts on their controllers. If they're meant to be replacements for the OEM Bafang units then its likely its built in already. If not it's good to know there's a fairly simple DIY option.

I'm still gathering some info and deciding on a budget. When I've got a real plan together I'll get back to you if I decide to go with your system.
 
Greg (Mr High Voltage) has been working on the tune for my motors since last August. Right as he got everything ready to go ASI went out of stock on virtually everything. They’re saying August before they have more stock. Global chip shortage, etc. Very bad timing.
My Small Blocks have been stuck in US Customs for a week. I have several controllers that I’m eager to try out with the Small Block, including a HV tuned BAC2000.
 
Fardriver Siaecosys

raw notes dump

high currents
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1708818#p1708818

72180 controller

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1705858#p1705858

841800 controller
http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_read/New%20Arrival%20SiAECOSYS%20Programmable%20SIAYQ72180%2072V%20180A%20Controller%20for%20High%20Power%20Electric%20Scooter%20Bike/943.html


72180 controller

which has a low price and 660A phase amps, but I am a little hesistant at the programming

fardriver controller, it’s a different company designing and making these, no connection to Votol

?? also Fardrive ???
ND72850
ND72850 which is supposedly 450A battery and motor 850A

Far Driver

QS https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1686990#p1686990
 
Thanks for this info. Sounds really promising. Anything Live For Physics is excited about has to be completely insane power-wise.
I got seduced by ASI because of 1) Smooth throttle response 2) Big phase grunt for single speed launch and 3) Phase weakening for extended single speed top end. The complexity of tuning and the odd issues caused by interdependencies between unrelated features makes working with them much harder than necessary. They’re not DIY controllers.
 
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