Metacycle died... need help

[unyun]

Hey all - new member here. I got stuck on a back road with my Metacycle yesterday. Road turned to dirt with potholes and huge puddles. I was pushing it out of a ditch and the motor died. Had to get it towed home. It does power up, but won't go into Drive or Sport. I removed the battery and charged it, have not put it back in, yet. I'm not sure what happened. Maybe something got wet? I'm worried it may have overheated, because I was riding quite slowly on the dirt road. I bumped into someone that told me that the motor is more likely to overheat when driving slowly than when driving fast. I didn't know that. I also noticed that while I was pushing it, every 100 yards or so there would be a short, dragging or rubbing sensation coming from the back tire/motor. I've never felt that before. It lasted only about 1/8 of a tire rotation, and then it went away, but reappeared in another 100 yards or so. I wish I could give more info, but that's all I know right now. Any advice? I'm not sure exactly where to start... TIA!!

 

[amberwolf]

Does it feel like the motor wheel has more resistance to turning than before? Does it feel "clunky" or "draggy" if you lift it off the ground and rotate it by hand?

Did any part of the bike feel hot when the problems started?

Does the system have an error log in the display?

 

[unyun]

Thanks for your help! No, it does not feel draggy or clunky, but if I roll it, every 90 or 100 yards there is a brief rubbing feeling, for about 1/8 of a turn of the wheel. No errors are displayed. I didn't check the hub motor, I should have, but was not expecting overheating at low speed. The battery cover did seem somewhat warm to the touch, but it was also sunny. I can't really lift the bike to try and rotate the wheel, but it seems to push and roll normally without resistance.

 

[amberwolf]

If you can't lift the bike and it has no full stand to put it up on, you could lay it down on it's side on blankets or something, enough to get the motor wheel where it can't touch anything and should rotate freely.

While I would expect this to be every rotation instead of such a long distance, here's some thoughts: (geared hubmotors could exhibit such issues over longer distances due to their internal gearing, but not usually DD hubmotors)

Does the tire touch the frame or anything else at any point in it's rotation?

Does it still feel that way if you remove the brake caliper? (the rotor could be bent and rub the pads sometimes)

If you unplug the motor from the controller, does it still feel the same under the same rolling conditions?

If so, there is probably a physical issue in the motor, such as a magnet that has come loose or broken, or otherwise has debris stuck to it, so it rubs periodically as the never-perfectly-spaced rotor/stator pass each other.

If it stops after unplugging, then something in the controller is causing it. If it happens whether or not the battery is connected, it could be a FET that has failed in some incomplete way, so that it only causes a partial short across a winding such that when voltage gets high enough (motor charging caps slowly during rotation) it triggers the fault (or the same mechanism triggers the controller to try to turn on briefly and during the POST process the controller tries to make the motor do something, then the charge is used up and controller is off again, etc).

 

[unyun]

While I would expect this to be every rotation instead of such a long distance, here's some thoughts:

Does the tire touch the frame or anything else at any point in it's rotation?

Does it still feel that way if you remove the brake caliper? (the rotor could be bent and rub the pads sometimes)

If you unplug the motor from the controller, does it still feel the same under the same rolling conditions?

If so, there is probably a physical issue in the motor, such as a magnet that has come loose or broken, or otherwise has debris stuck to it, so it rubs periodically as the never-perfectly-spaced rotor/stator pass each other.

If it stops after unplugging, then something in the controller is causing it. If it happens whether or not the battery is connected, it could be a FET that has failed in some incomplete way, so that it only causes a partial short across a winding such that when voltage gets high enough (motor charging caps slowly during rotation) it triggers the fault (or the same mechanism triggers the controller to try to turn on briefly and during the POST process the controller tries to make the motor do something, then the charge is used up and controller is off again, etc).

Thanks! I'll check that out and report back!!

 

[unyun]

Ok so I jacked up the bike and got the rear wheel off the ground. Turns out, it is constantly under drag by the brake. But the rotor does not seem damaged at all. Another user on FB forum said that this was a normal antitheft feature... do you know anything about that? Meanwhile, I removed the battery and even the controller, and tried it again, and when everything is disconnected, the brakes are even tighter and the rear wheel drags continuously and it's very hard to turn. I think that does seem like an antitheft mechanism, not sure...
So now I have the controller out and I'd like to test it... do you know how? I could use the wiring diagram for the controller but I don't see that one on the siaecosys site.... any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[unyun]

Hi all! My Metacycle died and I think it's the controller so I pulled it but I need the wiring diagram for the EM200-2sp controller from VOTOL... anybody have that? TIA!

Edit: NVM I think I found it here, just in case anyone else is looking: http://www.siaecosys.com/upfile/202102/2021022633524391.pdf

 

[amberwolf]

Ok so I jacked up the bike and got the rear wheel off the ground. Turns out, it is constantly under drag by the brake. But the rotor does not seem damaged at all.

Is it hydraulic brakes, or cable-operated?

If it's cable-operated, there could be a damaged cable housing pinching the cable and keeping the brake engaged.

If it's hydraulic, then to fault this way it would need the lever itself (like if it's bent or a bit of debris is caught in the lever housing) to be keeping the master cylinder providing pressure to the brakes, or a mechanical issue at the caliper or pad(s) causing friction with the rotor.

If the brakes were dragging, the controller might detect the extra load (or have a sensor on the brakes detecting they are engaged) and prevent motor operation.

Another user on FB forum said that this was a normal antitheft feature... do you know anything about that?

What does the bike manual say about it's antitheft stuff? It should describe what functions it has in that regard.

Meanwhile, I removed the battery and even the controller, and tried it again, and when everything is disconnected, the brakes are even tighter and the rear wheel drags continuously and it's very hard to turn.

The mechanical brakes should not be affected by the electronics; if they were it would mean that it would always constantly use power to keep the brakes *not* applied except when you were actually braking, and that would complicate the braking system in a non-failsafe way that could cause a serious accident if there were ever a glitch in power supply, etc.

Some antitheft stuff could "lock" the motor electronically (I have a controller that does this) but only when the controller is connected to motor and battery.

So now I have the controller out and I'd like to test it... do you know how?

The only thing you can really test for is if the FETs are shorted, but if they were it would cause drag on the wheel. Since you get *more* drag with the controller *removed*, then this is highly unlikely to be the case.

With the controller installed and connected normally, you could test if the controller powers up and provides voltage to the motor halls (or other sensor) and throttle, etc. And test the halls (or other sensor) for corrrect output as the motor is manually turned.

Beyond that, you'd need to connect the controller to a computer and use Siaecosys' setup / diagnostic software to see if there are any error logs, etc.

 

[unyun]

Hm thanks! Now I'm wondering what the "normal" resistance to spinning the back wheel is...? I'd never actually tried it until the thing broke down, so maybe it always has some resistance, I don't know... it sure doesn't spin like a bicycle tire... I'd say I have to exert as much force as maybe mixing paint in a 5-gallon bucket or a bit more... it feels like it's dragging, but maybe that's how it was before?

 

[amberwolf]

It should spin relatively freely. Not as freely as a regular bicycle wheel, but about as freely as a motorcycle wheel (it is heavier so there is more inertia, but more resistance in the bearings). So your front unpowered wheel should spin longer than the powered rear wheel, but they should both spin.

If it's working correctly, it should be able to be spun by hand so that it continues to spin a bit; the normal magnet/stator interaction will cause it to slow and stop more quickly than bearing drag would, but it shouldn't require your hand on it moving it to keep moving at least a little bit.

If it does, then there is either unusual mechanical or electrical drag to investigate.

The first thing to eliminate is brake drag, and the easiest way is usually to unbolt the caliper from the frame so it can't touch the rotor.

Next is tire touching frame or something else mechanical outside the motor.

After that, it's electrical drag in the motor--the most common place is damage within the cable from motor to controller, especially where it comes out of the motor axle. It might not be a visible short between phase wires, but if you see scuffing or other damage to the cable exterior, it can indicate damage at that point inside the cable.

Because the phase windings inside the motor all connect to a common point and are very low resistance, you can't do a simple continuity test between phase wires to check for shorts, as they will all read shorted. This leaves visual examination or more exotic testing / measuring methods.

If there are no electrical issues, it could be a mechanical issue--faulty motor bearing, or a magnet broken off inside the motor dragging on the stator, etc. (but often those will make a quite audible noise, even from outside the motor, scraping, squealing, etc).

 

[MDG]

Metacycle uses Votol controllers!!? I’m honestly shocked.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

This is a sweet thread, not only for Amberwolf being worth their weight in gold but also to see some of the inner workings of the Sondors. I imagined after owning a Sondors Thin that they'd kind of "parts bin" the electric motorcycle together, for better or worse.

I hope to see more pictures of this and it's internals so we can get a big running thread on maintenance and repairs. Honestly it began deliveries and then I didn't hear much about it, which either tells me it's a quiet success or not many are buying them.

 

[speedmd]

Glad you made it to the forum. I am the guy that ran into you and suggested you post here for help. To check the controller FET fail as amberwolf suggested, just check the resistance between the three power feed legs on the controller. This will rule out shorts or open legs on the controller. You also mentioned it getting tipped over a bit much at one point, so I would rule out a tip sensor if it has one. Bike looked like new and it did not have any overheating smell to it so I doubt the slow moving on the relatively flat forest road did the motor in. May have tripped the BMS so make sure your getting full and continuous voltage to the controller. They do fail relatively often. The anti theft system is one for the manufacturer to help sort out IMO. Check with them to see if there is a bluetooth-smartphone program possibly to help with diagnosis. Most likely some intermittent that showed up from the wet bumpy road or current overload from moving over the deeper rutted spots from near dead stops.

 

[unyun]

Glad you made it to the forum. I am the guy that ran into you and suggested you post here for help. To check the controller FET fail as amberwolf suggested, just check the resistance between the three power feed legs on the controller. This will rule out shorts or open legs on the controller. You also mentioned it getting tipped over a bit much at one point, so I would rule out a tip sensor if it has one. Bike looked like new and it did not have any overheating smell to it so I doubt the slow moving on the relatively flat forest road did the motor in. May have tripped the BMS so make sure your getting full and continuous voltage to the controller. They do fail relatively often. The anti theft system is one for the manufacturer to help sort out IMO. Check with them to see if there is a bluetooth-smartphone program possibly to help with diagnosis. Most likely some intermittent that showed up from the wet bumpy road or current overload from moving over the deeper rutted spots from near dead stops.

Hey yes! Thanks so much for stopping by and sending me here, etc. I have been in touch with Sondors, and they thought it was due to water between the battery and frame, which causes a short. The fix was to remove the battery, repaint the attachment pieces and insulate the connections with teflon tape. My bike was also giving some type of "error message" by flashing the lights and blinkers 4 times every 10 minutes or so. The bike is still hard to push I think the antitheft is "on". I don't see any misalignment or damage to the brake, caliper, or rotor. There is also an siaecosys software for controller settings, which I attached, but it was unable to connect to the controller. It is quite a chore removing the controller, the biggest challenge being the cable and wire management in such a tight space. Glad I took pics before I disassembled! Some have suggested that I may have burned the MOSFET by giving it current while the back wheel couldn't move. I don't know. Sondors next step for me is to remove the battery and reconnect it outside the bike so is completely isolated, and try it again... if that doesn't work it's probably the controller I guess. I'm gonna work on it some more this weekend. Thanks again, I'll let you know what happens!

 

[unyun]

Here's a shot of the controller. Any idea exactly where to test it and what to expect? Thanks!

 

[unyun]

Also, FWIW, once I did the fix and replaced the battery and turned it on, the back wheel spins completely freely now.

 

[unyun]

And others have commented that there is no tip sensor on the Metacycle. He knew because it "burned a hole in his leg" when it fell over on him!

 

[unyun]

Here's the controller before I removed it if that helps at all...

 

[unyun]

Update: I redid all the wiring again and turns out I had made some mistakes, so now I have everything working except it still won't move. Now I have lights, signals, horn, P, D, brakelights. I jacked up the bike and it feels like the antitheft mechanism is locked... back wheel is very draggy, now... Progress! But still not quite there... any thoughts?

 

[unyun]

If you ever need to take apart your Meta, it's good to have pics of all the connections before you take anything apart. Not all of the connectors are unique; it's possible to plug them in wrong. It's cramped in there! Here's the inside of mine.

 

[unyun]

I'm getting closer. I just noticed that there is a warning icon on the speedo - has anyone ever seen the Motor icon on before and what does that mean?

 

[amberwolf]

My bike was also giving some type of "error message" by flashing the lights and blinkers 4 times every 10 minutes or so.

What does the manual say this code is for?

If it's not in the manual, what does Sondors say it is for?

The bike is still hard to push I think the antitheft is "on". I don't see any misalignment or damage to the brake, caliper, or rotor.

Does it spin more freely when the caliper is removed? (it does not have to be misaligned or damaged to cause drag, just having the pads touch the rotor).

If the problem happens when the battery is removed, and controller disconnected from motor, it cannot be an antitheft function unless it is mechanically braking the wheel.

In that event you can remove the caliper to prevent this from happening to verify if that is causing the drag problem.

If the tire or wheel is not touching the frame in any way, and no debris is between the motor and frame or axle, and the caliper is not attached to be able to touch the rotor, and the motor is not connected to any part of the electrical system in any way, but the wheel still drags, then there is a mechanical or electrical problem inside the motor itself or it's cabling.

 

[amberwolf]

I jacked up the bike and it feels like the antitheft mechanism is locked... back wheel is very draggy, now...

Disconnect the motor wires from the controller one at a time. If it stops being draggy, then that phase of the controller has blown FETs in it that are shorting phase wires on the motor, loading it down.

If it never stops being draggy with all motor wires disconnected from the entire system, then remove the brake caliper from the frame to ensure it is not mechanically locking up the wheel, and verify the tire and motor and wheel are not touching the frame or any other part of the bike.

if it's still draggy, and especially if it feels "clunky" like the draggyness is worse in certain positions, then there is a short in the motor windings or cabling.

 

[unyun]

What does the manual say this code is for?

If it's not in the manual, what does Sondors say it is for?

It's not in the manual, but someone on FB found it on the SIAECOSYS website: SiAEcosys DKD Display manual, that icon means "Motor failure: When the Hall is faulty or the motor is out of phase, the indicator lights up."

 

[amberwolf]

It's not in the manual, but someone on FB found it on the SIAECOSYS website: SiAEcosys DKD Display manual, that icon means "Motor failure: When the Hall is faulty or the motor is out of phase, the indicator lights up."

Well, that would be for the motor indicator on the display.

I don't think the display manual has codes for the bike's signal light flash codes though, which is what I was asking about by quoting that part of your post.

That error code could be for a completely different fault (probably is).