Motor not running, very small torque

P

poeli

10 mW
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
26
Location
Belgium
Hi all,

Bought an Ebike kit from em3ev a whlie back, the 500W 20". I also bought a 48V 20ah battery from ebay. Connecting everything together and putting on i get the following: when giving throttle i feel a véééééry light torque and after nothing (even when applying throttle: nothing happening). I'm completely new to the ebike world so don't really know what the problem might be. I don't have ebrakes yet or use a hall sensor, but that in essence should not cause the problem should it? I've been extremely busy last weeks with work so i didn't had a chance to watch it yet. I did buy a multimeter, but as we're working with lipo battery's i'm a bit afraid of doing measurements which would cause fire or destroy my battery.
At first, I tried running the motor with a 36V 13Ah battery i still had lying around: the same problem, so I thought it was the battery. After i bought the 48V battery but he same problem keeps on occuring and i don't really find what it can be looking on the net. The motor wires are well connected i guess ( i can post pictures if someone thinks the problem might be there). When looking on how to measure lipo batteries i mainly find things from the RC World and not for ebikes... I have got some tips from the seller, but to be honest, it's all chinese to me. The only thing coming out of the battery are the red and black wire. Can i measure the voltage directly on these with the multimeter i have? As it's not charged i suppose the amps would be low?
I really wanna work on this ebike so i can finally use the kit i bought so long ago. If anyone has tips or knows what the issue might be let me know. I can post pictures and do measurements, but as i'm totally new to this it would be good to have clear instructions. Edit: just measured the voltage at the end of the battery wires i made which are connected to the controlor. It measures 53V...

Thanks in advance,
 
Well just to console you my 1000W DD hub has little to no acceleration esp. from stand-still, however I do only have Lead Acid Batteries giving me 48V and just 10Ahr - not the best set-up I know, as really I should have Lithium Batts rated at about 20Ahr with a good C (Discharge) Rating!
Once I have momentum alls good and the top speed is an easy 30+mph but if I'm faced with a steep hill and little momentum then assist with the pedals is a must (Flat terrain and small inclines once I'm at speed is not a problem).; This is in contrast to my old 250W 'Geared' hub which accelerated fine and tackled a hill climb quite well!! * but top speed was feeble.
With my 1000W hub I figured out that if I start off with initially pedalling and in Lowest Assist Mode (there are 3 Levels of Assist on the Bike) and then gradually work up to the third/highest level as speed increases, then that gets me there.
Getting the Right Battery is crucial to Performance but there are tweaks that can help improve the situation, such as a simple 'Shunt Mod' which if done correctly will boost the Amps your Controller draws.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31643

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PotpG-cVoU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35bCvc2kIY
 
poeli said:
The only thing coming out of the battery are the red and black wire. Can i measure the voltage directly on these with the multimeter i have? As it's not charged i suppose the amps would be low?
Click to expand...
Yes..you can measure the voltage on those two wires. There is no danger that putting a multi-meter on will cause any problem.

You said the battery is not charged? Charge it fully and try it.
 
First of all there are many posts/ new posters that appear to not have clear understanding many people may take for granted. I'm unsure how to help or where to point (subject(s)) for basics.

Hi op, these are the useful bit's I am getting from your post. They're not enough for me to understand a valid tech problem much less how to help solve it, due to possible communication and basic technical knowledge issues between us.

I'm completely new to the ebike world

(I) Bought an Ebike kit from em3ev a whlie back, the 500W 20".

I tried running the motor with a 36V 13Ah battery

I don't have ebrakes yet or use a hall sensor

..i get .. (very) light torque

i (tried) 48V battery but he same problem keeps on occuring

As it's not charged i suppose the amps (could) be low?

The only thing coming out of the battery are the red and black wire. Can i measure the voltage directly on these with the multimeter i have?

just measured .. 53V
Click to expand...

Any additional info or for future: try for clear and simple when possible. Info, info, info. I'm not sure if this is normal torque for your kit, if your battery is capable or not, or charged or not, or if you might be trying to charge it with a potato. :?: :wink:

Answer to the last question is 'yes', but you've figured that out. Also, make sure you read and understand your multimeter instructions, or any other electrical basics you might not be clear on.
Answer to amps question: not evident problem by the voltage that you have measured.

Some basics in problem definition are missing, limiting possible help.
Be careful of overheating motor, controller, or battery.

Does bike drive?
What is total weight of bike and rider?
How long does it take to go any certain speed on flat ground, from stop?

What is the battery?
Specifically: amps capacity.
What is the charger?
What is the kit?
Specifically: motor and controller type/setting.

That should help help alot.
 
Hi all,
thanks for the great support and i will try to clarify it a bit. Situation before:
36V14Ah battery with 250W motor: works fine. Bought following kit:
Upgrade EM3ev vers. Mac , 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit
- Controller Type: 9 fet 30A (36-52V, IRFB3077)
- Motor Speed: 320rpm loaded @36V 8T Upgrade
- Front/Rear Motor: Front
- Wheel Type: 20" Alex DM24 CNC
- Spoke Type: Sapim Upgrade (Black)
- Throttle Type: Thumb Throttle
- Ebrakes: HWBS Sensor (1pc)

Tried this kit with the same 36V battery, turning it on: feeling a very very small movement when giving FULL throttle (but bike is not even moving, wheel just just advanced maybe a cm). Thought it was the battery so i bought a 48V 20Ah battery which i charged at least 8hours before trying it on the kit. But the same problem is occuring. The Voltage at the end of the wires is 53V if i measure it. So basically the bike does not even drive (apart from the initial +-cm when giving FULL throttle). Weight of the bike is around 24kg, even when i'm not sitting on it (75kg) but standing to the side holding it the result is the same. The controller I let in the default settings when i bought it. The battery charger is 2A 54,6V with a max discharge of 30A following the specifications...
Just took the wheel back off and redid the wiring. Now when i turn it on i hear like a click when giving throttle but for the rest nothign, no response
 
Have you Considered/Checked the three 'Phase wires' - I found that on my previous E-Bike that I had to mismatch them i.e. swapped around the Green & Blue Wires, before the Motor would respond!! trying different combinations sometimes helps. Am clutching at straws here :)
I got some good tips on my own Posting - Check this out https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Determining_the_Wiring_for_a_Brushless_Motor

also this was good advice I got from 'John in CR', Quote:
"It sounds like an incorrect hall/phase wiring combo. If so, then it's a false positive in the right direction, so swap 2 and only 2 hall wires, and then find the right combination of phase wires of the remaining 5 possible. Use small throttle pulses. You do this with the wheel off the ground and chain off, so the pedals don't whack you with a fast reverse. Consider yourself lucky to not have done damage from overheating with a bad wiring combo, which results in low torque and high current.

Beforehand check the no-load current, which will be relatively high with a wrong combo. Valid wiring should be low current at WOT with no load. Poor torque and noisy startup are symptoms of a false positive wiring config."
 
Hmm as the motor and controller are bought together, the paper said it is color matching (red yellow and blue) so i just connected the wires of the same color together. Anyone else think that this might be a problem?
The problem is that it's not noisy just in the beginning like a mini sound(will record it once) and after nothing anymore. Image of the connections:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-IGTtSTr_yvRXNtTzlzeDZ0Ylk/view?usp=sharing
 
'Phase Wires' are always Green, Yellow and Blue (to the best of my knowledge) - no Red!!
'Hall Sensor wires' are the thinner 5 wire combo - which includes a Black and Red (NeG & Pos), which should NEVER be swapped around. If you have no luck with the Phase Wires then you'll have to remove the pins of the Hall Sensor wires from their plug and try interchanging them also * But remember NEVER the Black & Red ones

Check out the further info I just Posted.

btw, its fine to swap them around - except those Red & Black smaller Hall Wires.; My old E-Bike also said to 'Match them up' (color coordinated) in the manual, but it seems that's not always the right way to go!!?
p.s. swapping around Phase wires is perfectly safe - no permanent damage, but watch out for those pedals and motor spinning backwards as you try to find the right combo
 
bobsyleck said:
'Phase Wires' are always Green, Yellow and Blue (to the best of my knowledge) - no Red!!
'Hall wires' are the thinner 5 wires - including a Black and Red (NeG & Pos), which should never be swapped around.

Check out the further info I just Posted.

btw, its fine to swap them around - except those Red & Black smaller Hall Wires.; My old E-Bike also said to 'Match them up' (color coordinated) in the manual, but it seems that's not always the right way to go!!?
p.s. swapping around Phase wires is perfectly safe - no permanent damage, but watch out for those pedals and motor spinning backwards as you try to find the right combo
Click to expand...
yes sorry i was wrong. Gonna try swapping them.
 
Weird, switching them makes the wheel indeed spin (although slowly: switched the blue and yellow one). Gonna mount it back on my bike this afternoon and check it completely.
 
Good deal poeli :!: The info provided so far is an excellent start.

Check the kit power (voltage) with any on/off switches, and confirm proper 5v going to halls, along with proper green/blue/yellow combinations for halls and also for the thicker phase wires. It's usually best to avoid any extra connections like ebrakes, regen, and pas for the troubleshooting. I'm very happy you're on track.
 
Well, we can try to explain Paul/Em3ev's advice if the customer can copy it here. Ultimately the buyer will have to communicate with the seller if things aren't working right.
 
From EM3ev, the wiring should be color to color. it sounds like maybe a pin backed out of the white hall connector. when you changed the color it might of repositioned it. Check and make sure they are straight and not bent over.
that's just my experience with my MACs. Paul makes sure they are right.

Dan
 
I had some advice from Paul testing the battery, but it's obvious to me now that this is not at fault. Switching the colored wires with each other gives a noisy rotation (at least a rotation compared when i follow the color code). What is odd is that there is a 6 'pin' connector from the motor (hall) with indeed a white wire coming from the motor. Looking inside the one to which it should be connected: no white wire visible (see photos)
What is weird because yesterday i got a smooth rotation, only now i want to install it on my bike and i unplugged everything the problem is poping up again. And to be honest,
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-IGTtSTr_yvRWNJLWlZSnd2NDQ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-IGTtSTr_yvSTJJaE5nQUNXOFU/view?usp=sharing

For a first time builder the information which came with the kit is not clear enough (at least not for me :()
Youtube movie of the 'noisy' spinning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMIzvGgRaHc

I know it might sound all noobish to you guys, but I'm learning :) To be clear, the noisy spinning is only with the green in the blue wire and the yellow the same. If i connect it following the correct color codes from the kit, nothing happens (not even spinning). I guess there's another problem causing this...
Who oh who will be the final solver of the mystery :). I will read a bit further in the links bobysleck gave me too.
Thanks!
 
The white wire is extra, so don't worry about it. I think it's for a temp sensor.

A word of warning on testing: do not ever test it that way loose and letting the axle spin around! The phase and hall wires will be damaged and shorted by twisting around. Instead, install it on the bike and secure the axle with the nuts so it can't spin. Or you could use a bench vise, if you have one. Customer support is the job of the vendor, so don't give up on troubleshooting with them.

edit: you can mount and test with your bike upside down.
 
Had this problem turns out that the three wires to the motor were hooked up wrong.
 
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