New Bafang Crank-Drives

[wineboyrider]

For sure, but I was wondering if the 50v cellman pack is compatible with the bafang 48v system out of the box...

 

[Kepler]

So from what I have read, it looks like I will need to get Dyna-Sys 10 speed cluster and matching Dyna-Sys chain also. This is becoming an expensive learning curve.

$50 for XT cassette and $30 for XT chain from CRC is not expensive. You could save a few bucks by going SLX, but what's the point?

Have a look at SRAM XX1 cassette RRP

Any 10sp chain/cassette should work
Will 10sp chain even fit on Bafang chainring?

Thanks for that.

Yes the 10 speed chain fits the Bafang chainring nicely.

Cost of going XT doesn't worry me. Just dont want to run into any more incompatibility issues seeing I have an SLX shifter already.

 

[full-throttle]

I would like to run an xt shadow+ 10spd derailleur, can you use a 11-36 cassette with 46 - 48 chainring without having problems in lowest, highest gears?

It doesn't matter what size the front ring is. Get Zee instead of XT since you don't have multiple rings up front. It will work slightly better.

Will the bafang chainring work with a 10 speed chain?

As long as the ring is ~2mm thick or less.

Will a non dyna-sys chainring work with the xt dynasys stuff?

Yes

What top speed can I expect with a 44 to 11 with a 750w at 50v cell man batt?

Now you're asking too much :lol:

 

[coachstevo]

You can use a 10 speed shimano rear derailleur for 9 speed if you use a SRAM 9 speed shifter.

+1

You're talking about the dynasys crap

Great, another neophobic..
Quoting Sheldon's site, nice.. Was he even alive when Shimano introduced Dyna-Sys??
Have you even used it?
Cause in 18 month of riding and racing I'm yet to experience a single chain drop or even a mis-shift. Unlike 9sp stuff.

Not a neophobic.
Yes I have used it, but switched to SRAM xo/xx mix for my xc, and SRAM Force/red for the road bikes. Commuters are still shimano. The SRAM stuff was kind of an offer I couldn't refuse.
I also understand why manufacturers eventually push into non-compatible designs, both from a business side and technology side.

What I miss is the cross compatability of the shimano parts. It was old reliable for quite a while.
For commuters and such it was fantastic because of that. Of course I am deep, deep into nearly zero comparability now with the SRAM stuff.

I am sure Sheldon brown was dead when dynasys came out, but that site continues to be updated regularly and accurately.

 

[Rollodo]

mushymellon wrote:What top speed can I expect with a 44 to 11 with a 750w at 50v cell man batt?

What are the lvc issues for the controller based on the 14s cellman battery?

I don't follow sorry.

I was asking how fast my bike would go if i bought a bafang 750w and ran through a 44t chainring to an 11T

But I imaging there would be no issues with the battery if you had it setup custom?

For sure, but I was wondering if the 50v cellman pack is compatible with the bafang 48v system out of the box...

@mushymelon - The top speed would still depend on several other aspects like terrain, total weight and position of weight.

@wineboyrider - the Bafang 48V has 63V capacitors. Any battery pack <=62.5V (hot off charger or otherwise) should be okay.

 

[samsavvas]

Hi Folks,

Please forgive the elementary questions below - I read this entire thread (all 46 pages) last week but I'm afraid a couple of key points about the BBSxx elude me. Maybe I just missed the info or maybe it's my age showing!

My questions:
- can I use a nominal 36v BBS01 with a 48v battery?
- will the 48V BBS02 run on 36V?
If either of these scenarios raises problems, what might they be?

You might ask 'why not just standardise with one voltage across 2 or 3 bikes?' My answer is that it seems useful to have a smaller, lighter battery option for some bikes (I'm not interested in the LiPo option) and - I imagine like many others - I already have money invested in both voltages.

Many thanks,
Savvas.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Yes to both questions, but you would have to splice-in an external controller. The stock controllers will not work with a different voltage range than the one they were designed for.

The windings in each motor are different so that the mechanical part will spin at the same speed. This means the 48V motor at 36V will spin about 25% slower, and the 36V motor when used at 48V will spin about 30% faster.

 

[Kepler]

I see it a little differently and say yes and no .

You could run the 36V BBS01 as it is on 48V however as spinningmagnets pointed out, the output to the chainring would be 30% faster and as such cadence would be way too high.

To run the the 48V BBS02 on 36V, you would need to splice in an external controller or custom program the controller to deal with 36V. Again a spinningmagnets pointed out, cadence would then end up being too slow.

Bottom line, run the drive with the voltage it was designed for.

 

[Melbourne]

mushymellon wrote:What top speed can I expect with a 44 to 11 with a 750w at 50v cell man batt?

What are the lvc issues for the controller based on the 14s cellman battery?

I don't follow sorry.

I was asking how fast my bike would go if i bought a bafang 750w and ran through a 44t chainring to an 11T

51.6kph/32.1mph....

Calculate yourself...26inch/tire 1.25/Cadence 110(????)/44T/11T
26inch/tire 1.25/Cadence 90(????)/44T/11T = 45.6kph
http://www.bikecalc.com/gear_speed

 

[Kepler]

Well sorting out the correct derailleur for my setup ended up being a little more involved than first anticipated. So following advice from this thread and a heap of reading on various web sites, I think I finally have my head around it and have actually placed orders with Wriggle.

So I already have an XLS Dyna-Sys shifter, 10 speed unidirectional KMC chain, and 10 speed 105 cluster (11-28).

Ended up ordering a Shimano Deore XT M786 Shadow Plus Medium cage Derailleur and Shimano Dyna-Sys Deore XT 10 Speed Cassette (11-32)



Couldnt get any solid confirmation on whether or not a specific Dyna-Sys cassette was necessary. I suspect not. However I decided not to take any chances for the sake of $80 bucks. I have been wanting to swap out the 11-23 cassette on my road bike for an 11-28 anyway.

Also considered the Zee strongly but had trouble finding a wide ratio version in stock.

Hopefully this will solve both my indexing and chain jumping problems.

 

[mushymelon]

Thanks for the info guys and it looks like Kepler's gonna test run a similar setup, awesome.

 

[rodgah]

I might be a bit ignorant of mtb stuff....mainly because I am no where near an athlete that can take full use of top end stuff, but why do you insist on using 10sp Kepler apart from the clutched derailleur? I could see it worthy if it had a crazy 1st gear hill climber, or a top speed low t count advantage, but the gearing spread is rather the same for a 7-8sp. And since that stuff is lower spec replacing clusters and chains is cheaper and I would think would last longer.

I'm not being judgmental just interested in why you made that decision.

 

[rp3]

I can't speak for Kepler, but the only reason I'm looking at the 10spd stuff is for the clutched derailleur to stop/help the chain dropping.

 

[Kepler]

Fair question rodgah. Few reasons for going in this direction. Firstly I really wanted to get the most out of the mid drive on an XC platform and as such was keen to have a good spread of gear ratios that would allow me to cruise fast on flat ground and still have a high enough ratio to climb the steep stuff. Also wanted to keep the steps between ratios nice small so the transition between ratios would be nice and smooth. As I am sure you understand a smooth change means less strain on the gear system which is especially important with mid drives.

I was going to stick with a 9 speed to keep costs down however another problem came up being that I was losing the chain off the chainring under rough downhill unloaded conditions. Normally you can fit rollers or guides to alleviate this problem however with the 48 tooth chainring and swing arm layout of this bike, it proved to be not so simple to add effective chain guides.

So it was then suggested that i consider a clutch derailleur. Great solution for the chain bounce issue however clutch derailleurs only come in 10 speed and in the Shimano range, use the Dyna-Sys system which is not backwards compatible.

Also investigated whether 10 speed systems are weaker than 7 and 8 speed systems. General consensus is that they do tend to wear out more quickly due to increased side loads associated with the tighter gear spacing however actual breaking strength is very similar to any other chain good quality chain.

 

[joshseitz]

Great information about the clutch derailleur - definitely sounds like a worthy upgrade if it works as designed.

So have we determined that there aren't any chain-line issues when running the largest cog (32-34T) in a full cassette with the Bafang?

 

[Kepler]

Chain line is OK but not ideal. Distance is 50mm from the centre of the BB. All gears select on my current 10 speed setup.

 

[rodgah]

interesting, I had not counted the speed of gear change an issue but I haven't ridden a multispeed mid drive yet either. The thing that gets me is I can go for a ride on my HT bike and go 30kms on 160whs (considerable pedaling) and never feel overly exerted, yet if I ride a pure pedal bike I feel like am going beyond my limit in a few minutes and I couldnt imagine going 30kms. Most of my riding in the bush is coasting downhill and powering/pedaling back up, something I definitely wouldnt be able to do under my own power alone....maybe I need to loose the weight and try one of these. What would be your thoughts on trying this on a freeride/dh bike?

 

[greenspark]

We just took delivery of 23 BBS01 motors, set up to 300W to be New Zealand legal, all powered by CellMan batteries. Some folks in the buying group wanted the Samsung 29E battery, which is half the weight, double the power and cheaper than the A123 battery I bought a year ago (although I understand the A123 will last long and handles extreme demand better). Others were happy trying out the less expensive but heavier 2C NCM cells. Two days from now we will have an installation party where everyone brings their bikes, we share tools and knowledge and hopefully everyone rides home (but no guarantees... finding out you need a longer chain, or something else can always delay the install). In the three bikes we built, it worked out to about a 2-3 hour job for each bike, mostly dealing with stuff on the old bikes, like grips that would not come off without lifting the rubber and spraying in silicon. Removing bottom brackets can be a nightmare as well, but if the shaft is true, slipping the new motor in is a 2 second job. Then a lot of time was spent with zip ties, trying to make the job look as invisible as possible. With the built in controller the spaghetti mess of wires is history; just one to the controls, one to the battery and one to the rear wheel speed sensor.

Prior to this we were using the Bafang prototypes. They have made some nice improvements with the production units.

The shaft is now steel and slightly smaller diameter. This helps in installation, although the Velorbis still had sufficiently sloppy welds that we had to take a rotary grinder (a big Dremel) to make it fit. The water proof cabling, that was good before, is better now, with colour coding to idiot proof it even more. Our units came with battery cables that matched the batteries for a more OEM look and the cables overall fit better (not extra feet of cable that has to be stuffed somewhere). The test ride found that the motor is quieter... indeed you can hardly hear it at all. We ordered most of ours with Thumb Throttles, and find it gives a power boost, even though the factory says the pedelec 3 setting is supposed to be 100%. One of the motors came with a different display unit, the C695 that also shows how many watts in real time.

We were most delighted to install it on a new Pashley, where it blended in very nicely. The battery fit on the steel rack under the basket, held down with a few zip ties. As you can see, the battery is too small for the rack... which means instead of an 11.2 Ah, we should order a longer-range one. We also reckon it will be better if we build a small wooden box for it because the plastic does not fit the otherwise tweedy look. For those who don't know, Pashley has been making bikes since 1926, and their current design will look completely familiar to someone who rode a bike 50-75 years ago, complete the classic Sturmey Archer Thumb Shifter on the handlebar. We were most pleased that the chain guard was able to be fitted with just a 1" extension because the brace had to be off angle to fit the motor. When we next installed one on the Velorbis, we put the brace on a grinder and cut away the conflicting steel.

Performance wise, these are motors for people who want to flatten hills, not the performance crowd. They will extend riding range and bring in a whole new class of buyer... by class I mean people who buy for transport, not as a hobby. Motors like this extend range, flatten hills and get people from point A to B in the most efficient way possible. BTW, we installed one of the prototypes on a 62 year old Raleigh DL-1 and then added a NuVinci N360 hub to this 28" x 1.5" huge bike. It rides like a 1960's Cadillac, as the relaxed front fork and huge tyres cushion road shock. We put a huge Lepper Dutch leather saddle (actually, this one can properly be called a seat) that makes the ride even more pleasant. It absolutely beats any modern bike for comfort. The NuVinci hub is amazing, with plenty of low end gearing for hills, but a tall high end so it still is pedalling going down the long hill to the ferry. Of course, the motor, battery, hub, front hub with brake and generator, steel fenders and rattrap rack all add up to a seriously heavy bike, but unless the battery runs out of juice, it does not matter... and probably would give an opportunistic bike thief pause as it is too heavy to carry away when the wheel lock is on. Here's a pic of the Pashley...

 

[ErikDK]

Show us the vintage Raleigh too, please.

 

[Warren]

greenspark,

You need to put some chrome steel cranks on there. The flat black alloy cranks look really out of place.

http://www.jbimporters.com/web/checking_product_description.php?part_number=22030

 

[greenspark]

Anyone have any idea why the download is not working? The image can be found at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=129042 but the forum entry is not picking it up.

 

[Samd]

I think images less than ~150k in size are linked not shown?

 

[greenspark]

Show us the vintage Raleigh too, please.

Raleigh DL-1 (1951) NuVinci N360 internal

Bella Ciao (New) 3-speed Shimano internal

Velorbis Scrap, bought used, 5-speed Shimano internal

Gazelle (1980's) 3-speed SA internal

 

[greenspark]

greenspark,

You need to put some chrome steel cranks on there. The flat black alloy cranks look really out of place.

http://www.jbimporters.com/web/checking_product_description.php?part_number=22030

Yeah, we need to get Bafang to offer them. I suppose I should paint them ivory to match the bike.

But it's low on my priority list.

 

[Miles]

Do it like this, Greenspark: