New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

[John in CR]

If things are getting too hot, stop. to some extent you'll get 'faster' cooling if your moving at a decent speed on the flats, but the fact is some small% of the power will still be going to generate heat, and if your close to burning something its safer to stop and wait.

It's better to stop, lift the wheel and give it some throttle. Cooling faster is always better. Roasting magnets for longer is worse. If you stop and shut it down the magnets will get hotter first before beginning to cool, because the turbulent air flow that was cooling things off and more rapidly transferring heat to and from the covers is now gone, but the stator is still very hot. At no load with the wheel up there's drastically better cooling with little energy input much of which is creating the fan with the spokes and tire. The difference is getting your motor out of the danger zone in tens of seconds instead of further into the danger zone and staying there for minutes. It's not even a close call.

On a hot day which will feel better, sitting still roasting in the heat, or using a little energy and fanning yourself with a nice folding fan?

Its the temp of the windings that are important.

It's the temperature of the magnets that is important. The thermal limit of the magnets is lower than the coating on magnet wire.

John

 

[Alan B]

Halls cook first.

Winding temperature drives heating.

 

[itchynackers]

I was testing my spare thermal probe yesterday (off the bike). Unfortunately, its the insulation of the probe wires melts first. This is supposed to be good to 572F, but the insualtion began melting way lower. Now I have to open my motor to "improve" the probe that is in there. I should have tested it off-bike first!

 

[parabellum]

It's the temperature of the magnets that is important. The thermal limit of the magnets is lower than the coating on magnet wire.

Halls cook first.

I have cooked HS motor 3 days ago, burned cooper winding( insulation fell of in several places and few burned strands). Hals still work, magnets are still strong (it was difficult to get the stator out, stepping on the wheel with my 200+ lbs)

 

[Alan B]

Yes, depends on how quickly things heat up. Quick overheat gets insulation or solder, slow gets halls, magnets may overheat but less common.

 

[parabellum]

Yes, depends on how quickly things heat up. Quick overheat gets insulation or solder, slow gets halls, magnets may overheat but less common.

Have opened other tread to not highjack this one.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33703

 

[miro13car]

drilling holes in side covers of HT/HS is it good idea?
What about rain, if you cought in the rain?
Weather is so impredictable !
So HT/HS powered ebike only dry weather transport, right?

 

[theRealFury]

No its not just dry weather riding. The motor its self can run totally submerged under water... only problem you have with a motor is that the repeated wetness and then drying out can cause the insides to rust over time. If you live in Europe or just want to be able to go out in the rain when ever you feel like it then i would advise to treat the insides of the motor with something like corrosionX or some other type of any corrosion spray.

That being said i have not treated the insides of my motor and i live in the UK. I have run in all weather types and have not had a single problem, there are only slight signs of corrosion inside my motor after 1000 miles, i will open it up again next spring (wen i try to upgrade phase wires and install a temp probe) and see what a winter of riding has done to it.

The main component you need to keep dry is the controller, as if that gets wet then it will let the magic smoke out no doubt.

As for drilling holes, well lots of people do but it mainly depends on your climate and your power levels as to if you need to or not. I have found that here in the UK with temeratures usually between 10-20 degrees C in the summer we have just had that i can run all day at the ~2KW input that i use. I do take some hills, and some long WOT riding at 30MPH+ and have not fealt the motor get uncomfortable to touch. I don't have a temp probe in there yet but i would be very surprised if the motor was any where near close to overheating.

If your ambient temps are in the 30-50 degrees C bracket or you are runing 3KW+ then i would immagine you would need to ventilate the covers at least.

 

[Hugues]

if you ride always on paved roads, holes are ok i guess,

but if you ride on dirty trails, with mud, small rocks, grass, you name it, then I'm not sure it's such a great idea.
The probability that something hard enters the hub and damages it is high in my opinion.

 

[bikesport1000]

I have got my HT and HS now. I took the 2 plastic pieces at the wire outlet off immediately and - no surprise really: isolation is already cut up to the 3 phase wires on both brandnew motors. Puuuh! Must have occured during manufacturing already! It's really tight in that slot - no space at all despite of no halls.

First thing now: The mods on the phase wire outlets!
I am not so convinced about the '180 degree turn the first plastic part mod and dremel new wire outlet in the top of that plastic pice' as offered by Ken in that special thread here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29731&hilit=cut+wire+crystalyte#p429300
Anyone any positive longer time experience with that mod?
Guess that the 2 plastic pieces will come too high thereafter, as they now already unmoded come up to the end of the turns on the axle.

Question
What about removing both plastic pieces entirely, take 2 cable straps around the axle directly at the seal to keep the phase wires down and simulaneously put a thumbnail from 0,5 mm aluminium over the phasewires and under the seal, whereby the aluminium thumb nail could be holded down by the cable straps at the same time. No glue - no problems later to remove the side cover for further mods and still sealed.
Anyone has experience with such kind of mod? Or any other quick solution without need to open up?

cheers
Bikesport

 

[Hugues]

- i've done the 180 degrees mod and got rid of the seal with the metal part inside, replaced by hand made rubber seal.
- dremel ALL the sharp edges along the axle groove, entry and exit
- installed Doctor Bass torque arms

No problem since, but it's been a month only since the torque arms, although a lot of riding.

So far so good.

 

[bikesport1000]

Thanks Hugues,

that must have been a lot of work for you but your mod just sounds perfect.

I noticed that you drive LiPos with regen. I got no answer from anybody on my previous question 'if regen will harm LiPos'.
It is only because the strong discharging on e.g. even hot LiPos uphill will be followed by (strong current) loading downhill and then strong current discharge again followed by strong loading etc. etc. /
Normally any kind of accumulator batterie does not like this treatment, at least not in hot condition, and answers with shorter life time.
As you are in hilly Switzerland apparently this must be the maximum stress factor for your LiPos. And you drive often. Any bad experience on the lifetime of your LiPos by using regen?

I am really looking forward to my first rides on these new Crytalytes
Bikesport

 

[Hugues]

Probably no issues to use regen with LiPo's, but I say probably because:

- myself i've been using regen since ~august only. No issues but i cannot say if it has an impact on their longevity
- anything in relation to LiPo's must be done with the right knowledge and skills, and on this aspect i still have much to learn
- controller must be adapated to your LiPos to be sure not to over charge them, i think you need a HVC, high voltage cutoff

Having said that,I've been following this forum since july and i don't recall anyone saying regen and lipo are not compatible.

 

[bikesport1000]

LiPo Amps:
The specification of my RC-Lipos, wich I will use for biking too, are max 20c for discharge and max 1 c for loading. A 10 AH pack could be discharged with 200 Amps (no problem to be expected on the battery side at least) but loaded with only 10 Amps (that could well be a problem with regen).
Non RC LiPo specs (e.g. those offered for biking) often are only less than 5 c for discharge - then you need to be carefull with 40 Amp controllers etc.

LiPo Voltage:
For LiPo loading the absolut maximum voltage is 4,2 Volt per Cell - higher will result in a nice and very rapid firework, which I happened to see already once .
For discharging the limit is 3 V per cell. Lower will simply destroy the LiPo for ever.
Balancing the LiPos in a pack must ensure above mentioned Voltage limits are NEVER over- or understepped for each individual cell.

Your Magura brake switches: Have you build them on your own? I'll place Maguras 33. Any idea how to come to brake switches on these?

bikesport

 

[sn0wchyld]

/...
Question
What about removing both plastic pieces entirely, take 2 cable straps around the axle directly at the seal to keep the phase wires down and simulaneously put a thumbnail from 0,5 mm aluminium over the phasewires and under the seal, whereby the aluminium thumb nail could be holded down by the cable straps at the same time. No glue - no problems later to remove the side cover for further mods and still sealed.
Anyone has experience with such kind of mod? Or any other quick solution without need to open up?

cheers
Bikesport

Ive done exactly this. You can see details if you need on about p2 or 3 of my buld thread in my sig... works like a charm, no need to mod the plastic bit (since I didnt have a dremiel at the time) done near on 1000km already and no issues. I prefer it since it means there is no chance of anything cutting your wires, versus 'hoping' that the 180 mod will hold em down :wink:

 

[Hugues]

....Your Magura brake switches: Have you build them on your own? I'll place Maguras 33. Any idea how to come to brake switches on these?

bikesport

We're getting off topic a bit here comnpared to original title of this post,

you can find the details of the brake switch here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30376

you can PM me for details if need be.

 

[bikesport1000]

/...
Question
What about removing both plastic pieces entirely, take 2 cable straps around the axle directly at the seal to keep the phase wires down and simulaneously put a thumbnail from 0,5 mm aluminium over the phasewires and under the seal, whereby the aluminium thumb nail could be holded down by the cable straps at the same time. No glue - no problems later to remove the side cover for further mods and still sealed.
Anyone has experience with such kind of mod? Or any other quick solution without need to open up?

cheers
Bikesport

Ive done exactly this. You can see details if you need on about p2 or 3 of my buld thread in my sig... works like a charm, no need to mod the plastic bit (since I didnt have a dremiel at the time) done near on 1000km already and no issues. I prefer it since it means there is no chance of anything cutting your wires, versus 'hoping' that the 180 mod will hold em down :wink:

Hey Sn0wchyld,
this looks perfect and simple. How long in mm is the thumbnail you took finally (the one nearer to the camera in your pic)? Is it 0,5 mm or even thicker alu? Looks more like 1 or 1.5 mm...

This is a great forum - you always get quick and excellent answers! Thank you all .
bikesport

 

[sn0wchyld]

/...
Question
What about removing both plastic pieces entirely, take 2 cable straps around the axle directly at the seal to keep the phase wires down and simulaneously put a thumbnail from 0,5 mm aluminium over the phasewires and under the seal, whereby the aluminium thumb nail could be holded down by the cable straps at the same time. No glue - no problems later to remove the side cover for further mods and still sealed.
Anyone has experience with such kind of mod? Or any other quick solution without need to open up?

cheers
Bikesport

Ive done exactly this. You can see details if you need on about p2 or 3 of my buld thread in my sig... works like a charm, no need to mod the plastic bit (since I didnt have a dremiel at the time) done near on 1000km already and no issues. I prefer it since it means there is no chance of anything cutting your wires, versus 'hoping' that the 180 mod will hold em down :wink:

Hey Sn0wchyld,
this looks perfect and simple. How long in mm is the thumbnail you took finally (the one nearer to the camera in your pic)? Is it 0,5 mm or even thicker alu? Looks more like 1 or 1.5 mm...

This is a great forum - you always get quick and excellent answers! Thank you all .
bikesport

not sure of the thickness, it was cut off some scrap... about 1mm from memory. and yea, a great forum. I've learned so so much from this place compared to where I was 12 months ago.

 

[bikesport1000]

The Sn0wchyld Thumbnail: 20 minutes of work with 0,5 mm Alu from RC shop / took the sides some millimeters shorter than in picture and with a drop of silicon oil the positioning is easy. The 2 plastic pieces in position as before with 1,5 mm more space needed, which is exactly there. No worries anymore to cut the wires
Thank you Sn0wchyld

Bikesport

 

[bikesport1000]

Trial run yesterday evening: Ht has a lateral runout (wobble) of ca 0,5 mm which I hope I can compensate by the forthcoming lacing job.
The HS has a scratching sound inside the cable side probably at the knot where the phasing wires originate. AGRR :x - Will need to open that one up to fix it.
Any experience with that kind of mod ?

 

[electricwheels.de]

Trial run yesterday evening: Ht has a lateral runout (wobble) of ca 0,5 mm which I hope I can compensate by the forthcoming lacing job.
The HS has a scratching sound inside the cable side probably at the knot where the phasing wires originate. AGRR :x - Will need to open that one up to fix it.
Any experience with that kind of mod ?

I would recommend two things:

1.) - take the Stator out and use a plastic hammer to gently tap down any high points of the windings, on both sides. If nessessary, use tweezers to undo a high knot and place it into a position more out of the way. Secure knots with isolating varnish if you have some.

2.) - The outer 'magnet ring' I found to be running good in most of the motors I have opened. It's the side covers that cause the wobble, mainly because the bearing seat in the cover does not line up with mounting surface of the cover.

Try the following:

Clean all mounting surfaces on covers and 'magnet ring'. Find out which of the side covers fits a little looser and can be turned inside the magnet ring. Only then mount the stator with the side cover.
Start with the sprocket side. If you can turn it, mount it with all screws, but no sealant.
If the brake side cover fits more loosely, use this side.
Put some sealant on the opposite cover mounting surface.

Now grab the axle end on the outside of the cover and insert it into the hub.

WATCH YOUR FINGERS!!! The stator will snap into position quite suddenly.

Insert the 9 screws and tighten them up.

Now spin the wheel. If you can hear scratching sounds, STOP

Make a mark close to any screw on cover and ring to indicate the position of the cover, then undo all screws and turn the cover by one hole.
Insert all screws, tighten them and spin again.
Ideally, make a list with numbers 1 to 9. Try all nine positions to see if any of them makes a scratching sound. The list could look for example like this:
1 - Y
2 - Y
3 - N
4 - N
5 - N
6 - N
7 - N
8 - Y
9 - Y

Here you can see that position No. 5 seems to be the furthest away from the scratching spots. Now take your cover off, put on some sealant on and to mount the side cover with its mark on position No. 5.

Also note that the scratching sound can originate between the stator and the magnets if the stator itself has excessive wobble on the axle.

If all fails there is another way of overcoming this problem... :wink:

 

[DimGr]

please excuse me for the question...but what's the maximum KW that HT3525 can handle?
I'm planning to use 100V battery and 50A controller...

 

[sn0wchyld]

please excuse me for the question...but what's the maximum KW that HT3525 can handle?
I'm planning to use 100V battery and 50A controller...

Im running that right now, acceleration's a bit muddy below 10km/h or so, but after that.... woooohoooo! hehe. I try and ride pretty conservatively, some have burnt these motors (more the HS) at levels lower than 3kw, so be very carefull, and try and only use bursts of power that high, rather than running round at wot 24/7. Given that my motor covers havent gone over 45deg yet, im planning on upping the amps soon... but I stress that I try and be easy on the motor 90% of the time, and I'll be adding forced air and temp monitoring before upping the amps any more.

 

[bikesport1000]

Wow - ok, it's winter in Northern hemissphere and anyway to cold for biking for some time to come - and it's a hobby, so I will take my time. The hubs are cheap compared to European or US products with nearly unequaled power possibilities; and such an amount of neodym magnets (one of the 17 rear earth) e.g. are excellent stuff.

Tks for the wealth of experience - I will certainly use it

I'll do the lacing job first now on both hubs in order to get a good handle for the magnet outer ring.

Is there any heat resistant isolating varnish you could recommend for the job?

What about silicon as sealant later?

Does anybody has already a temperature measurement device to place at the windings (I open anyway now)?
Ideally with some kind of instrument at the handle bar where you can see the red region coming (eg. 80 to 120 Celsius = red).

bikesport

 

[theRealFury]

please excuse me for the question...but what's the maximum KW that HT3525 can handle?
I'm planning to use 100V battery and 50A controller...

I have read that the saturation point of the stator is around 10KW but anything over 2-3KW (depending on ambient temps) will need to be thermally monitored to prevent overheating. 5KW will definately need monitoring as others have cooked the windings on less power than that.