New TESLA P90D 0-60 in 2.8 sec

Doctorbass

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Elon Musk announced today that they will be producing a Tesla model P90D...!!!

This mean a 0-60 in 2.8 sec with what they call an "advanced smart fuse" that will make the pack to be capable to be drained from 1300A to 1500A and nearly 800hp.. and about 6-7% range increase on teh battery pack. This new power performance mode will be called : "Ludicrous".. liook like a blink of an eye to Spaceball!! lol

:lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:
[youtube]ygE01sOhzz0[/youtube]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...new-90-kwh-battery-ludicrous-performance-mode

I tought it was a joke.. but from all website i have read this look to be true!

This is good new as it will be pretty sure it will beat a Nissan GTR now!

Doc
 
I like how the limit to break out of was simply a fuse limit :lol:
This car is now almost as fast as a Veyron Bugatti ( v16 engine ), yet is 1/10th the cost. I think that Tesla is going to end up dominating the supercar and luxury market in 5 years if they keep this up!

Notice that luxury car manufacturers are always the ones making statements about how terrible electrics are - and that they'll NEVER make an electric car - only to backpedal shortly after?
It's just so fun to watch this all play out, man! :mrgreen:
 
Lolworthy quote: There is of course only one thing beyond ludicrous, but that speed is reserved for the next generation Roadster in 4 years: maximum plaid.

One of my favourite movies :mrgreen:
 
neptronix said:
I like how the limit to break out of was simply a fuse limit :lol:
True, ...but the new 90kWhr pack has both new chemistry, and presumably more cells (?), but as usual it's hard to get exact details of the configuration.
Also, I'm amazed they can offer the AWD option ( extra motor, trans, & controls etc etc ), for just $5k !
 
Hi,


Here's the full press conference audio with the Q&A:
[youtube]6ThrNtJm7ko[/youtube]
Elon Musk said:
About 7:30: We are able to do corners at 1g. The car will accelerate at 1.1g, "so its faster than falling".

About 8:30: The increased capacity is due to increased cell density, shifting the cell chemistry to using Silicon in the anode, a baby step... the 90kWh pack "looks exactly the same".

Elon Musk said:
Luuudicrous Mode
While working on our goal of making the power train last a million miles, we came up with the idea for an advanced smart fuse for the battery. Instead of a standard fuse that just melts past a certain amperage, requiring a big gap between the normal operating current and max current, we developed a fuse with its own electronics and a tiny lithium-ion battery. It constantly monitors current at the millisecond level and is pyro-actuated to cut power with extreme precision and certainty.

That was combined with upgrading the main pack contactor to use inconel (a high temperature space-grade superalloy) instead of steel, so that it remains springy under the heat of heavy current. The net result is that we can safely increase the max pack output from 1300 to 1500 Amps.

What this results in is a 10% improvement in the 0 to 60 mph time to 2.8 secs and a quarter mile time of 10.9 secs. Time to 155 mph is improved even more, resulting in a 20% reduction.

This option will cost $10k for new buyers. In appreciation of our existing P85D owners, the pack electronics upgrade needed for Ludicrous Mode will be offered for the next six months at only $5k plus installation labor.

It is important to note that the battery pack size upgrade and the pack electronics upgrade are almost entirely independent. The first is about energy, which affects range, and the second is about power, which affects acceleration.
 
Hi,

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-07-20/tesla-just-did-something-big-in-the-car-world
Tesla Just Did Something Really Big

Tesla has rocked the world of high-performance automobiles with the introduction of its new “Ludicrous mode” rapid acceleration feature. The internal-combustion engine business may never be the same.

Regular readers of mine usually know at least two things about me: First, I believe that all predictions are silly, more about marketing than actually trying to figure out what comes next. Second, I am a fan of sleek, go-fast machines, preferably beautiful ones from Italy, Germany or the U.K.

Thus, I am going to break with both of these traditions to make a forecast about the future of the automotive industry. Gasoline-powered cars are toast. They are over, finito, kaput, the walking dead who have not yet realized they are goners. It is highly likely that in your lifetime, you will no longer see the mass manufacturing of gasoline-powered automobiles. My guess is that by 2035, if not sooner, the majority of automobiles sold in the U.S. and Europe will no longer be gasoline-powered....

The Tesla P85D with the complete 90kWh “ludicrous” upgrade costs about $100,000
. The upgrade gives it a 0 to 60 mph time of 2.8 seconds. To put that into context, to get that sort of acceleration from a car previously required a Porsche 918 Spyder (0 to 60 in 2.3 seconds) or a Bugatti Veyron (2.6 seconds) or a Koenigsegg One (2.5 seconds). They each cost $1.1 million, $2.9 million and $3.8 million, respectively.

You can save some money by buying a Lamborghini Huracan ($237,250) or the Ferrari 458 Italia ($239,340), but both are slower than the Tesla. That makes the McLaren 570s a relative bargain at $184,900, but it, too, is slower than the Tesla.

Think about what this does to the high-end segment of the auto market. Tesla founder Elon Musk could put a sexier body on the Model S -- low-slung, fat tires, gull-wing doors -- and steal share from Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche, Bentley and Bugatti. Or, he can sell entire drivetrains to those companies and let them clad the cars with their own bodies. Or both. Whatever happens, the sports-luxury market just had a huge shot fired across its bow....
 
this is the first polysilicon anode in a production battery cell. this has to be part of where their new battery plant is going. we are now gonna be able to see lipo cells with 2-3k cycles life times with little degradation in performance.

they will rule the battery world with this.
 
seems like they are now using the ncr18650ga

“It’s a baby step in the direction of using silicon in the anode,” Musk said during a press conference call. “But we will increasing the use of silicon in the anode.
 
dnmun said:
this is the first polysilicon anode in a production battery cell. this has to be part of where their new battery plant is going. we are now gonna be able to see lipo cells with 2-3k cycles life times with little degradation in performance.
If they can solve the problem of the degradation caused by the silicon swelling, Panasonic has been fighting that issue since about 2010.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/417084/tesla-to-use-high-energy-batteries-from-panasonic/
Tesla to Use High-Energy Batteries from Panasonic
By Kevin Bullis on January 13, 2010


One of the new cells in particular will require extensive testing, since it relies on silicon-based electrodes. In theory, silicon electrodes can hold much more energy than the carbon electrodes they replace, but silicon electrodes tend to swell and break apart. They’ll need to be tested to make sure these problems have been overcome.
 
Ummm... yeah looks like NCR18650GA

NCR18650GA outperforms NCR18650BE (current cell) in both DCIR and capacity. It's a straight up badass cell.
20A burst would be no problem whatsoever for the GA.
270 Wh/kg on the cell level. Still amazing power... 1500 W/kg. Woot.
 
There you have it, straight from Elon: 1300 amps or only 17 amps per cell on the old p85d

I was right:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66514&start=75#p1007033
READ IT AND WEEP.
500HP.
 
okashira said:
Ummm... yeah looks like NCR18650GA

NCR18650GA outperforms NCR18650BE (current cell) in both DCIR and capacity. It's a straight up badass cell.
20A burst would be no problem whatsoever for the GA.
270 Wh/kg on the cell level. Still amazing power... 1500 W/kg. Woot.

Do you have a datasheet for it, by chance?

I found this info:

- Rated Capacity: 3300mah (0.67A discharge at 20°C)
- Minimum Capacity: 3350mAh (0.67A discharge at 25°C)
- Typical Capacity: 3450mAh (Reference only)
- Nominal Voltage: 3.6V
- Discharging End Voltage: 2.5V
- Charging Current (Std.): 1475mA (other source 1675A)
- Charging Voltage: 4.20V (+-0.03V)
- Charging Time (Std.): 4.5 hours (other source 4 hours)
- Continuous Discharging Current (Max.): 10A
- Weight: less than 48.0g
- Dimensions: (D)18.50*(H)65.30mm
- Operating Temperature
Charge: 10~ +45°C
Dicharge: -20~ +60°C
- Storing Temperature: -20 ~ +50°C

Edit: i found this info too, from lifeforphysics.

R5pdfHn.jpg


Not very exciting at 10A.
 
Might need to get your glasses adjusted, because that's excellent performance at a very high drain (100% to 0% in 20 minutes flat), especially for a state of the art capacity cell.
 
Dropping from 4.2v to 3.8v in an instant on 3C ( a 10% loss of the cell's total energy ) is a condition i'd never want to see a battery in for very long, if ever. Your 98% battery efficient cruising point where you see minimal voltage sag and don't have thermal issues to conquer is more like 0.5C on that battery, which is acceptable if you are OK with significantly oversizing your battery to have 2 hours of runtime in order to maximize performance and cell life ( cycles ).

Are you thinking in terms of building some type of low power ( 30mph or under ) touring or long distance ebike? because that is what a cell like this is good for.. in that case, that makes sense.

Here's my application:
My bike sees 45mph continuously ( no bike lanes where i live ) and runs at an average 3000W, so i'd need a 100AH 60v pack of these for good performance and no worries of the battery reaching super high temps, especially in the center of the pack. But i don't know where i am going to fit 6kw-hrs of battery on my bike, nor do i really want to pay for 6kw-hrs :lol:.

The minimum battery for a person like me is a cell that runs at 2C continuous without significant voltage sag, capacity loss, and heat.
I currently run a 1.15kw-hr ( 46v, 25AH ) 15C Lipo pack at a maximum of 3.5C.

The only 18650 that would work for me is the Samsung 25R, because that cell is happy to do 2C all day. But the slower charge rate, higher cell cost, and more complexity in building the pack is why i am still a fanboy of the turnigy multistars.

What is your application? what are you trying to build?
 
I thought this discussion was about the Tesla Model S, not a high-powered, short range ebike?
 
Punx0r said:
I thought this discussion was about the Tesla Model S, not a high-powered, short range ebike?

Given that this is primarily an ebike forum, and we are interested in battery developments as it pertains to the vehicles we use, are you surprised that the discussion ends up heading in that direction?
 
A little. The discussion seemed to have gone "Model S now using new cell" > "said cell is inferior to RC LiCo in a 20 min discharge" ergo "Model S should use RC LiCo?". Just seems OT. Perhaps a separate thread discussing the general applicability of tge GA cell would be better?
 
neptronix said:

LOL, I was just f-king with you.
Many of us are well aware of your anti-[high quality, high performance 18650 cell], and pro-[crap quality hobby grade lipo] zealotry. Don't confuse my and other's lack of engagement with your posts with lack of disagreement with your views. It's just that replying to your baffling quantity of posts, nonsensical arguments, and lack of proper analysis is a waste of time.
This thread had nothing to do with your "views," on batteries, and it is a shame you had to bring that crap in here.
 
You must have not read my comment all the way. I said that the Samsung 25R would work well.
.. and said that this cell was 'straight up badass' and capable of 20A and posted some official info that contradicted you.

You're not my wife, so i don't have to agree to disagree when you get emotional over things and pretend i'm wrong though, :mrgreen:
I'm entitled to my opinion, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to verbally abuse me or anyone else here.

I may be in the wrong for following the bait to taking this thread in another direction by talking about the cell in the car. I had no idea that anyone would object to that. A lot of us lust for these newer cells when salvaged from newer electric cars after all, so i figured it wasn't off topic..
 
i think if anyone can solve the problem of the polysilicon anode distortions it will be JB Straubel. his TED lectures are just staggering to comprehend how much they looked into the world they were building when they first designed the tesla roadster.

they have the best battery talent and type of organization that will let them succeed. this new pack is being built in the tesla manufacturing factory now but eventually that will occupy the entire mega plant in nevada so expect that these cans will become the cheapest and best cans around.
 
dnmun said:
they have the best battery talent and type of organization that will let them succeed. this new pack is being built in the tesla manufacturing factory now but eventually that will occupy the entire mega plant in nevada so expect that these cans will become the cheapest and best cans around.

Good point!
Yeah, i like the fact that the cells they're looking to make will be a little bit larger in form factor. That means less tab welding to deal with too. Shame that they didn't go with an even larger form factor though... or space saving pouch cells.

I bet it doesn't matter to them since they have robots doing all the cell welding.
 
neptronix said:
dnmun said:
they have the best battery talent and type of organization that will let them succeed. this new pack is being built in the tesla manufacturing factory now but eventually that will occupy the entire mega plant in nevada so expect that these cans will become the cheapest and best cans around.

Good point!
Yeah, i like the fact that the cells they're looking to make will be a little bit larger in form factor. That means less tab welding to deal with too. Shame that they didn't go with an even larger form factor though... or space saving pouch cells.
.
If you have read the background, you will know why they chose a small format, metal canister , cell.
It's Unlikely they will stray too far from that philosophy.
 
Hi,

http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/teslas-cheaper-car/
Tesla’s road to a cheaper electric car has always appeared to lead straight to Reno, where the electric automaker is building a $5 billion gigafactory designed with enough capacity to reduce the per-kilowatt-hour cost of its lithium-ion battery packs by over 30% by the end of 2017.

Many companies are already planning concepts around the promise of cheaper, higher-capacity batteries. But, it turns out that Tesla TSLA 0.40% has more than one path toward its ultimate goal of an electric car that’s 50% cheaper than its luxury Model S.

Tesla’s road to a cheaper electric car has always appeared to lead straight to Reno, where the electric automaker is building a $5 billion gigafactory designed with enough capacity to reduce the per-kilowatt-hour cost of its lithium-ion battery packs by over 30% by the end of 2017.

Many companies are already planning concepts around the promise of cheaper, higher-capacity batteries. But, it turns out that Tesla TSLA 0.40% has more than one path toward its ultimate goal of an electric car that’s 50% cheaper than its luxury Model S.

During a call with reporters last week, CEO Elon Musk said the company had improved the battery by shifting the cell chemistry for the pack to partially use silicon in the anode.

“This is just sort of a baby step in the direction of using silicon in the anode,” Musk said during the call. “We’re still primarily using synthetic graphite, but over time we’ll be increasing silicon in the anode.”

For the unfamiliar, this might sound like minor tinkering. It’s actually an important and challenging step for Tesla (and other battery manufacturers) that could lead to a better, cheaper battery.

“It’s a race among the battery makers to get more and more silicon in,” said Jeff Dahn, a leading lithium-ion battery researcher and professor at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia who recently signed a 5-year exclusive partnership with Tesla. “The number of researchers around the world working on silicon for lithium-ion cells is mindboggling. A large number of academics and industrial folks are working really hard on this problem.”

Batteries 101
A battery contains two electrodes: an anode (negative) on one side and a cathode (positive) on the other. An electrolyte, essentially the courier that moves ions between the electrodes when charging and discharging, sits in the middle.

Graphite is commonly used as the anode in commercial lithium-ion batteries. However, a silicon anode can store about 10 times more (per unit volume) lithium ions. In theory, if you replaced a lot of graphite in the cell with silicon, the thickness of the graphite negative electrode could be reduced. There would be more space to add more active material and you could, in turn, increase the energy density—or the amount of energy that can be stored in a battery per its volume—of the cell.

In other words, you could pack more energy in the same space. Plus, the silicon used in the battery space doesn’t need to be the same quality as what’s used in solar cells and integrated circuits, which means it’s cheaper. The more silicon you put in the battery, the easier it is to drive costs down.

That’s the goal of battery makers everywhere: to improve their product while reducing costs.

Sounds easy enough, right? Hardly, says Dahn, who is currently working on a project funded by 3M and the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada to develop longer lasting, lower cost lithium-ion battery cells. Their exclusive partnership with Tesla will begin in June 2016, once Dahn has completed the 3M research project.

The trick is that when you add lithium to the silicon you end up with almost five times the original number of atoms you started with. And that causes all kinds of problems.

An Electrode Particle Walks Into a Party
Think of the battery electrode as a room and a lot of electrode particles—or people— are packed in there for a party, Dahn explains. Now imagine that everybody in that room suddenly becomes obese; the people aren’t going to fit anymore.

“If everyone is already packed in there and they all become 400 pounds, you’re in big trouble,” says Dahn.

This is what happens when all the particles in the electrode are silicon. But if only a few people in the room become obese, it’s not so bad because they can shuffle around and make enough space for these obese folks.

“This is why only a small amount of silicon is being initially added,” Dahn says.

That’s not the only issue with using silicon. To take the crowded room analogy a step further, imagine these obese people (or electrode particles) shrink when the battery is charged and then blow up again when it’s discharged. That enormous volume change causes another issue. The surface of every silicon particle is in contact with the electrolyte, and the protective film on the silicon is continually being stretched as the size of those particles change. When it shrinks it can flake off, which can impact the lifespan of the battery.

This means that the more silicon you put in, the more challenging it is to maintain cycle life, Dahn says.

Which brings us to where battery makers and researchers are today.

“Right now, you put in a touch—a little pixie dust—and it’s tolerable,” says Dahn. “Over the years, more and more will go in and that’s a good thing because it means these products are going to improve and get better.”

Dahn’s research team aims to increase both the energy density and the lifespan of lithium-ion cells, which could, in turn, help drive down costs in automotive and grid energy storage applications. They aren’t the only ones. “There are quite a few companies around the world that are starting to put silicon in the negative electrode,” explains Dahn. “And it’s not just Panasonic, Tesla’s supplier. Samsung and other companies around the world are doing this too.”

Most batteries today, even those in consumer electronics, have tiny amounts of silicon, says Sam Jaffe, a longtime analyst, formerly of Navigant Research, and now CEO of startup Cygnus Energy Storage.

The question is what percentage of silicon is Tesla using. The industry standard is between 1 to 3% silicon in battery recipes, Jaffe says. He believes Tesla has figured out how to use more.

“For them to have made a significant change in the energy density of the battery and then to publicly say it’s the silicon increase makes me think—and this is speculation now—that they’ve made progress getting higher percentages of silicon into the cell,” Jaffe says.

Model X and Tesla as a Supplier
“There’s a lot of incentive to continue to improve this battery technology for everyone in the industry,” Karl Brauer, a senior analyst at Kelley Blue Book, told Fortune. “It’s certainly the lifeblood for Tesla.”

Tesla had to increase the battery capacity for the highly anticipated Model X SUV because it’s heavier and without it, the vehicle would have lost range, Brauer says.

Brauer also believes the focus on battery tech isn’t just to improve the cars, but to set the company up as a supplier.

With many companies already anticipating the use of cheaper, more powerful lithium-ion batteries and competing to apply that technology to residential and commercial power grid applications, Tesla’s move could put them at the forefront of a newly revolutionized energy industry.
 
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