phaserunner+MAC turning in wrong direction

M

MikeRD03

10 mW
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
23
Hi! I am struggling getting my new setup up and running. It's a brand new Phaserunner v3 together with a 16T/200rpm MAC and a 60V battery. The motor cables for phase and hall matches the color of the Phaserunner documentation. The diagnostic screen shows all hall sensors are working correctly. Autotune first step sensing resistance of all windings passes OK with correct values.
With some fiddling I was able to get the setup turning and autotune to complete. But since I have a motor with hall I want use it together with the Phaserunner and here the problem starts:

The autotune process runs sensorless if I understand correctly. The wheel is turning and it return hall sensor data on the result screen. After autotune the wheel is spinning correctly in the right direction. Then I am switching to hall only. Now the motor is still spinning but in the wrong direction ?! I hear it inside the housing turning since the MAC has a freewheel. Switching back to sensorless and direction is right again.

I have no clue what is going wrong here. Is the phase color matching important for a phaserunner? I remember my old controler did not match the phase colors. But I thought the phaserunner handles this automatically. Is this true?

Here are my actual settings:
phaserunner1.JPG
phaserunner2.JPG

Mike
 
MikeRD03 said:
Hi! I am struggling getting my new setup up and running. It's a brand new Phaserunner v3 together with a 16T/200rpm MAC and a 60V battery. The motor cables for phase and hall matches the color of the Phaserunner documentation. The diagnostic screen shows all hall sensors are working correctly. Autotune first step sensing resistance of all windings passes OK with correct values.
With some fiddling I was able to get the setup turning and autotune to complete. But since I have a motor with hall I want use it together with the Phaserunner and here the problem starts:

The autotune process runs sensorless if I understand correctly. The wheel is turning and it return hall sensor data on the result screen. After autotune the wheel is spinning correctly in the right direction. Then I am switching to hall only. Now the motor is still spinning but in the wrong direction ?! I hear it inside the housing turning since the MAC has a freewheel. Switching back to sensorless and direction is right again.

I have no clue what is going wrong here. Is the phase color matching important for a phaserunner? I remember my old controler did not match the phase colors. But I thought the phaserunner handles this automatically. Is this true?

Here are my actual settings:
phaserunner1.JPG
phaserunner2.JPG

Mike
Click to expand...

If you have the motor running smoothly in reverse, then the usual way of reversing direction would be to swap two hall sensor wires (e.g. green swapped with yellow), then try the three combinations of phase wire swapping, one of which should produce a smooth forward running motor.
 
you dont swap wires with autotune

if it spins backward during autotune if you have the option to change rotation
https://youtu.be/9M5U0snSKvs?t=169

something else is going on, i dont know what but i wouldnt be swapping wires
 
Hi MIke,

I would agree that the Phaserunner should sort out the correct phase wiring on it's own thru the "Auto tune" wizard.
It does sound like it "Auto tunes" in the sensorless mode.

I'm wondering if it would make any difference to have the "motor position sensor type" set to "hall sensored" before running the Auto tune wizard?
 
you could go to the phaserunner suite and with the bike connected
click the "read parameters"
then upper left corner click " file"
then go to "advanced"
click "advanced export"
and email the file to Grin with an explanation of whats happening to see if they can help you
 
Thanx for the input to far. Most suggestions were already done. Of course I tried to reverse turning direction in the autotune wizzard. Then it turns in the wrong direction sensorless - but when I switch to hall sensors it is just stuck. You hear just a rumbling noise typical when phase or hall is wrong wired. So this does not work.
Switching to hall and do the autotune ends in sensorless. AFAIK autotune is done sensorless regardless of this setting.

I checked hall sensor working in the diag screen and all OK here. The autotune delivers a result where all three hall sensors are involved - so far so good. Is my Phaserunner defective? I can't believe to run in to a problem of this magnitude since GRIN is selling the same motor just with some turns less. This can't make a huge difference. I also contacted GRIN about this problem but I am disapointed by their support so far since I got no idea from there. Hopefully this is not their last word.
Noteworthy to say perhaps it is a brand new version of the MAC with this huge torque arm developed by GRIN but with freewheel. It is sold by the German ebike-solutions company.

Mike
 
Then I am switching to hall only. Now the motor is still spinning but in the wrong direction ?
Click to expand...


why have you selected for
motor position sensor type (2) sensorless

both of mine i select (1) hall sensor start, sensorless run
 
hi goatman, if I choose (1) it starts in the wrong direction and at a certain point with full power in the opposite direction. Not good :)
I have definitely a controller that runs in two directions - never ever sawn before.
 
I am coming closer to the problem. Sensorless runs fine - hall does not. So it must have to do with the hall sensor order.

This is the hall sensor pattern detected by autotuning when turning in the right direction (sensorless):
hall pattern.JPG

It says the order is 0-2-2-4-5-3

Note the position two and three - double ??? not possible!
Now I go to the diag screen and turn the wheel very slowly so I can read the real hall sensor data one by one. And what I see seam very correct. First one hall, then two hall together with the next and then the next hall alone. The third sensor the same thing. Just as is should be.
When I plot the hall sensor pattern numbers as displayed it reads:

5-4-3-2-1-0

Which is logical right to me and shows the motor hall sensors are working totally correct.

The question is now - why is the detected and the real pattern order different? No question this is the cause, but why? Software malfunction?
Or my personal explanation: With the 67 Volt system the motor with its 80 poles is turning very fast in autotune mode. Perhaps autotune is not able to sense with this amount of speed? So we are back to software fault or PC too slow? (6 year old Thinkpad)

What do you think?
 
its not a Grin motor but a German motor
is it a chinese knock-off of a Grin or did the germans get it from Grin?
i think Grin wires their motors to match bafang wire code

id open up the motor to see how its wired
to see if phase color BYG order matches
the hall BYG order
you might need to flip hall wires?
 
All MACs are made in China but with different setups and features. But electrical base is similar. So my motor wasn't made in Germany but China, too. They just call it Puma (cougar) but it's a normal MAC.

I also tried to swap the phase wires, but Phaserunner swapped it back, so the result was identical. I now tried to power it with only 24V but the result is still the same - backwards on hall with the same wrong hall mappping.. :(
 
The self learn is part of the autotune, right? So I swaped the phase wires, run the autotune and everything was identical.
 
MikeRD03 said:
The self learn is part of the autotune, right? So I swaped the phase wires, run the autotune and everything was identical.
Click to expand...

You might try getting it running smoothly backwards, then treat it like a simple dumb controller (don't autotune) and swap the wires to get it running forwards. At least that gets you riding.
 
Not bad the idea. Problem here the autotune has deteced a double hall pattern which can be "build". Does a factory reset delete these patterns?
 
I followed E-HP proposal and loaded the MAC default setting without touching the autotune. Well, all I had to do was swapping the blue and green hall wires and it turns correctly ON hall. So far, so good!
But it had some minor side effects: Sensorless is turning now in the opposide/wrong direction and the speed+rpm is displayed in diag with minus. So the controller thinks it is turning backwards.
After saving the config I retried autotune because I was curious and bamm the same wrong result!! Here is something wrong with your software, GRIN. And? :wink:

So it was no point landing, but a success so far. Thank you all! Although this is ridable i hate this kind of mysteries left. So, if someone has an idea... 8)

Mike
 
As said I hate unkown mysteries so I decided to hunt down the cause. Well, I found it. This is an oscilloscope view of the +5V power line going into the motor. And it is not surprising that the outgoing signal are garbage -> Phaserunner is defective, case closed for me.

PXL_20210423_134637185.jpg
 
Maybe you tried this, but here's the sequence I was thinking to try:
Connect normally
Run autotune until motor spins smoothly backwards
Swap phase wires
Test (don't run autotune)

Test result?

May run, but controller seems defective.
 
MikeRD03 said:
As said I hate unkown mysteries so I decided to hunt down the cause. Well, I found it. This is an oscilloscope view of the +5V power line going into the motor. And it is not surprising that the outgoing signal are garbage -> Phaserunner is defective, case closed for me.

PXL_20210423_134637185.jpg
Click to expand...

what does that mean?
ive never used an oscilloscope
is that hooked up inline?
the +5v is constant isnt it
 
Yes, correct. The +5V line should have a steady plain signal which would be visible as a straight line on the screen of the osci. As you can see this is far away from a line. This kind of bad signal is called ringing and cause bad side effects. In my case a total malfunction of the autotune feature. An oscilloscope is a device which can measure a voltage over time and display it as a graph. Is it usefull to analyse fast changing signals like the hall sensors.

Mike
 
youre just measuring the 5+v from the PR without the motor connected
 
Jep, just the +5V from Phaserunner, but with motor connected. The spook begins when the PR's throttle enters the motor start phase. But it needs no movement. Before that the power signal is stable. So the motor itself can't be the problem. Its sensors are powered and working always.
 
you might want to move throttle start voltage from 0.8v to 1.1v

from your second picture of the thread
it says brake voltage 0.8v they have to be seperated

you might be triggering something
the first picture bottom left shows your reverse speed of 6km/h how fast does it spin backwards?
 
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