Please help! Need Turnigy 80-100 130kv

[mdd0127]

Hi guys,

Here's the deal. I'm building a prototype ultra light electric dirt bike with pedal assist. Why? Because someone needs to build something REALLY COOL to get the EV market to take off in the USA. The current offerings in the market are not up to par, or are extremely overpriced for what they are. The only way people will start to look at electric vehicles as a viable alternative is if they are enticed by an awesome product. Just like the Tesla came in and jump started the car market, I'm hoping that my product will stimulate the two wheeled market. I'm not an ME, EE. I build things. I've been a fabricator/mechanic/electronics repair nerd for years. I know what works and how things should go together. I've been refining my design for almost five years and now I've actually got a pile of parts building up.

I want to have the prototype done in the next few months but I've run into a couple of snags. I do have investors on this deal but my budget is extremely limited for what I'm trying to build. Little things like the Hammerschmidt not coming with a shifter or bottom bracket, and crazy shipping costs are starting to throw me off. I know that once I have a working prototype, money won't be as big of an issue. I compiled a parts list and figured prices and reasonable shipping before I started ordering. I ended up splurging a little on the suspension which took most of the wiggle room out of my budget. I just got my business account set up and finally got my debit card so now I can start ordering parts from the internet. I went to order the motor from hobby city and for some reason, the shipping is almost $50 for a $100 motor! I can't afford that much shipping! I need to get the motor ASAP so I can rewind/modify it and get it working with my controller. Do any of you guys have an extra motor laying around? I figured $120 for the motor in my budget. I know, it's only $30 difference, but this is happening on the batteries and controller as well and to be honest, I'm basically unemployed and spending all of my time getting this thing together.

I would love to post the entire build on here, but for the first time in my life, I'm actually interested in making a little money off this concept. I am not a greedy person. When this thing takes off and I have resources to work with, my main goal is to help fund others like me and help move EV technology forward. I've survived on $15K a year for many, many years, like my lifestyle, and don't want to change it too much. I feel that investing in good people and their ideas is much more important than having a lavish lifestyle. The only thing I'm doing differently than what has already been done is packaging everything better so you're really not missing out on any real technological breakthroughs. I will reveal a couple of specs though: 8 inch travel, under 85lbs, top speed governed at 45mph(pedal assist-able all the way up), 44v 20AH lipo, no derailleurs, adjust on the fly seat height, tough enough to ABUSE. The M55 has some serious competition. I would really like to get help from others as soon as the budget allows but for right now, the only way I can pull this thing off is disappearing into the cave, firing up the mill, and going at it. Sorry to type your eyes out but I really need a motor ASAP. Can anyone help? Maybe I can give you a huge discount on a bike later on or something? I'm hoping that once the proof of concept is there, I can get more funding and maybe pay some of the gurus here to help me with building a custom motor, controller, and bms.

Thanks,
Danny

 

[mdd0127]

It just occurred to me that even a damaged motor will help! I'll be replacing bearings, rewinding, etc anyway. Anyone have anything?

 

[recumpence]

I hate to sound negative. Please do not be offended by my reply. However, there are some red-flags that come up in your post;

#1 Cost. RC drives are not the cheapest or easiest solution. If you skimp, you will not be happy with the results. Also, if you are actually planning on developing something to produce, you will need a pretty deep budget for R&D, enough that $50 for shipping is not even a drop in the bucket, more like dust on the scales.

#2 Reliability and useability of a production bike. RC drives are not the most reliable setup especially if you are running sensorless. The draw of RC drives is super high power to weight ratio, not reliability or user friendliness.

Beyond that, and I must be careful when I say this, your post comes across as very arrogent, yet not realistic. For one thing, you talk about being competitive with the M55, yet a $120 motor is all you want to put into it. Also, those of us who have been doing this for a while struggle to achieve quality surpassing that of production bikes like the M55. We can beat the performance per dollar, but the quality is tough to beat. You also mention Lipo, yet you do not sound very knowledgeable in this industry as a whole and that is a hazardous combination. There are also extremely stiff federal penalties for shipping lipo packs above a small capacity at one time. This must be addressed if you are looking to produce something.

Again, please do not be offended by my comments. I believe your heart is in the right place. However, it sounds like you are totally underestimating what is involved in a project of this magnitude. It is kind of like saying "I want to compete in proffessional auto racing, but, wow, I only have $500 to spend on the whole season."

I am being frank on this because I have researched this myself, as well as being approached by over a dozen bike and perspective bike manufacturers regarding manufacturing a production E-bike using RC equipment. You are looking at many thousands of dollars to prototype a decent bike that is production worthy before even considering marketting it and that would be only if you already have an intimate knowledge of every aspect of this, can do ALL the work yourself, have contacts in various fields who can get you products at cost, and already have access to a distribution network. Plus debugging takes alot of time (even if you are extremely gifted in this). Then there is arranging production. I do not think you even want to hear how much money is involved in actual production of more than one bike. The tooling alone will cost many decades worth of your income. Beyond that, any production bike will be required to a maximum limit of 20mph and 746 watts of output to be federally legal in the states and only 200 watts in the UK.

From what it looks like to me, this is a project beyond what you are assuming...........

Sorry for the negative comments, but, you may be biting off more than you can chew, at least with the budget and understanding you have at the moment. You tend to come across as arrogent, yet not very technically knowledgeable. Your comment about the M55 having some competition is truely something you obviously have not actually done any research on to make such a comment.

We, on this forum, are all here to help each other out, however. Just realize, you need to get your head out of the clouds and be realistic.

Matt

 

[mdd0127]

Hi Matt,

It's nice to correspond with you in a thread. I appreciate all of your comments and even thought about contacting you about your drives. I can assure you that I've fully researched this and the project is moving forward. I realize that what I'm trying to do sounds impossible but most things I do sound impossible. I built a fully exocaged, supercharged, custom toyota rock crawler, in a few weekends, for around $2,500 and drove it 26,000 miles before I got bored with it and parted it out. No one thought I could pull that off until I showed up in Moab with it. I'm a resourceful guy. I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence or dedication. The M55 is amazing. When I saw it, I freaked out and told my wife, "Someone's in my head!!!" I almost gave up completely. I've been thinking about this/ researching it for years but had absolutely no chance of producing it until now. Once I looked at the M55 a little deeper, I saw some very distinct issues that I believe I have improved upon. I also think I can make something, that maybe not quite as "high tech", will be more capable and cost less. I have a pile of the best downhill bike parts, a full array of catalogs, reference books, and text books sitting right next to me. I may not have memorized every calculation, spec or detail for every aspect of the operation, but I know exactly where to find them and how to use them. I will be learning as I go along to some extent but a lot of it will be more like remembering as I go along too. I know I don't come off sounding reasonable because I can't give every exact detail but I'm very serious and will have something pretty cool to scoot around on pretty soon.

Although my budget is very limited now, I have no doubt that it will increase as I bring what's in my head into reality. I've designed the whole thing with upgrades in mind so maybe I start with a $100 motor that I spend another $100 and a few days on to prove the concept, then get a custom motor built when the funds are available. Motor manufacturers will take me a lot more seriously when I say, "Hey, I need a motor for this-shows bike-, and I need a thousand of them." The bottom line is, I need to get it together. I'll be doing all fabrication and R&D myself and only few more parts to locate so the R&D budget is up to me. As far as shipping Lipos goes, I really hope I can get a few from the hobby store to my house without spontaneously combusting. I don't know the first thing about setting up production and manufacturing. My investors do. And for a very simple explanation of my budget, they're just being careful with their money until they see what I've come up with.

How can people decide not to build/market something that doesn't exist because there aren't laws catered for it? The high power bicycle/ultralight motorcycle category hasn't been dealt with legally for many reasons. There is low demand because either designs aren't up to par or they are too expensive so many people haven't even been exposed. Out here in SW colorado 99% of people have absolutely no idea that bikes can have electric motors. Seriously, how can you expect there to be laws that make sense at this stage. We'll be releasing the product officially as offroad only but from the research I've done, it won't be hard to register one in most states. It's just like registering a custom chopper. I've spoken with Farmers insurance and they already have policies in place for high powered electric bicycles.

So here I was feeling all good because I just talked to a guy about getting some motors made and he seems really cool and interested in what I've going on and I come back on here to see if anyone's offered any help. I come to find that someone that I respect very much , having very little exact knowledge of what I'm doing, or who I am, has tried to rip my dream apart. Matt, sorry to waste all of your time.

Anyone in the USA have a dead or alive extra turnigy 80-100?

Thanks,
Danny

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

o here I was feeling all good because I just talked to a guy about getting some motors made and he seems really cool and interested in what I've going on and I come back on here to see if anyone's offered any help. I come to find that someone that I respect very much , having very little exact knowledge of what I'm doing, or who I am, has tried to rip my dream apart. Matt, sorry to waste all of your time.

I'm sure Matt wasn't trying "to rip my dream apart".

But you have to admit that building a ground breaking Ebike when you can't even afford the postage for a cheapo motor doesn't sound very realistic.

It's more expensive but this motor might be better for your purposes?:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16728

12 kw rc motor

SPECS : 60V 200A = 12 KW
75 KV

AROUND 250 BUCKS

 

[mdd0127]

I can definitely see that what I'm proposing sounds crazy. I'm not mad at Matt or offended in any way. I was just a little let down to have the first post be negative because I hadn't seem much negativity on here. Even when people have no idea what they're talking about, the response here is usually, "Build it! Post pics!"

Mitchji,

I was following that thread and that motor is honestly a little overkill. Maybe it will work in my next build though? The 80-100 is a little overkill and won't be getting run at it's peak ever. I always like to overbuild a little so when new batteries, controllers, and transmission goodies come out, upgrades will be easy. I do have good news though. I just received news that my specs are being delivered to a couple of manufacturers. I should have quotes soon! I'll definitely let the forum know what we come up with. As for now, due to time constraints, I still need a turnigy to play with.

 

[mdd0127]

Let me again, clarify the budget issue. I have a certain budget allotted for parts. I have most of the parts I need purchased. I'd like to accomplish certain things before asking for more funding. One of those things is getting a working power train together. Quite a few little things have gone slightly over budget for this period and it's just adding up on me. I need to try to save a few bucks everywhere I can. Also, I didn't make clear that the higher cost isn't the only issue, they are also currently out of stock and I need something very soon.

 

[liveforphysics]

The 12kw outrunner motor in this thread mentioned by Mitch:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16728

This motor will save you money in the long run.

To get the big HXT motor up to a level I considdered to be trustworthy and solid, it required making a custom shaft from a proper high-stregnth steel (rather than the china butter-steel shaft they come with), and spending more than the entire motor cost just in replacement upgrade bearings.

If you go with that 12kw outrunner, you will have something special, and you will never need to worry about motor-heating or bearing or shaft related issues. It also is in an RPM range that enables an easy 1-stage 5-6:1 gear reduction.

 

[recumpence]

There are many reasons I posted as I did. First, you will find many people who are "Excited" about a perspective E-bike and insist they will back you financially. Then, they vanish and never return. I have had 4 separate existing manufacturers tell me they were flying engineers to my shop to discuss production. They gave me dates and times they were to arrive and none ever showed up or called after that. I have had schools send out engineering students and teachers to my shop, I have been invited to speak at EV conventions, I have had many true investors offer to setup production including one man worth over 100-million dollars who is heavily invested in full scale EV development. Yet, nothing ever came of any of it. So, I speak from experience in this. Second, you just seem to have an arrogent tone to your posts. You basically come accross as saying -----Everyone in the world sucks, and I have it all figured out..... That is the way it sounds. I am one of the few who will actually be straight with a person about this type of thing.

Let me give you some numbers from my personal experience;

My recumbent was my first foray into RC bike development. That bike cost me $3,000 in materials to build along with about 200 hours of time and that was with an existing understanding of all equipment involved. Besides that, I spent over $5,000 on basic machining equipment to build it and ahuge number of hours learning to run that equipment. Next, I developed my reduction unit. That cost me $5,000 in CNC programming, prototyping, materials, R&D and overall trial and error to get off the ground. Then there were many stages along the way in refinement to get the drive advanced and efficient enough for true production. All that for just the drive unit alone. On top of that, I was given a huge amount of advice I did not have to pay for from many guys on this forum and elsewhere. Also, I believe I lucked out in guessing right the first time in a number of gambles I made in this. Developing an entire bike is an order of magnitude harder than this. There are many brilliant people on this board who put me to shame in their knowledge and skill as well as education and some of them are pushing for production of various components. HAL is looking at building an entire bike. He is really struggling to do it and he is beyond me in mechanical and electronic ability. So, when I see brilliant people like him struggling to develop a bike, as well as my own understanding of what is involved in product development and liability issues, I tend to be a bit cautious in my words in regard to advising someone to produce something like this. What I mean by that is, I do not want to see someone going down a path that may be a huge money pit or time vacuum without warning them first.

You accused me of slamming that which I know nothing about. I may not know about your particular project, however, I DO know about the technology involved with this and it is from that knowledge that I speak, not from a LACK of knowledge. I am not a perfect person. However, I do understand this quite well. I also am trying to counsel you on how best to communicate. You came onto this board with nothing but -----I am great and I know how to cure everything----- type of talk without getting to know anyone or offering anything but personal bragging and this bragging is done in a way that seems to communicate that you are actually lacking in knowledge. Taking time to speak respectfully, not arrogently goes a long way. Saying something like "I am new here and want to introduce myself. I would ultimately love to produce a good E-bike, but am just starting my prototype. Can you guys give me some advice?" That would come accross much better than the very forceful manor in which your first post was written. Then, when I point this out, you accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about. There are plenty of people on this forum who know alot more than I do. However, I do have a large amount of understanding about manufacturing and the E-bike market as a whole. Before I was involved in E-bikes, I produced RC helicopters and upgrades. I have shipped thousands of orders, have mantained web sites, have arranged production of products in 6 machineshops over 4 countries, worked out packaging, arranged distributor contracts, and did absolutely all engineering for 90% of my products. So, again, I DO know what I am talking about. I do not want to brag, I am merely answering you in the manor you are speaking to us here. You may, very well, have a good product planned. However, you really need to learn to humble yourself and communicate respectfully. I looked over your other posts here and you come across the same there as well. Then again, maybe I totally misread your first post. In any event, I am not trying to hurt you. I am trying to give productive advice. I do wish you all the best in your project. You may be the real deal. I hope so. If I am out of line, I am sure I will get PMs telling me so.

Matt

 

[mdd0127]

It's just too big. Really freakin awesome, but for this bike, too big. I'm fine with modding the 80-100 for my project. I have to order a bunch of bearings for the frame anyway and even have a few totes with different sized bearings laying around that I can go through. Basically, the big turnigy will get modded and be a temporary solution until I can get the "right" motor designed and built. I'd be running that 12KW motor at 1/4 power max and it wouldn't justify the extra weight/size/inefficiency. 85 Lbs is already a fat piggy to be pedaling around, but it's the lightest I could cut it down to and still be safe/stable at high speeds. I've been dreaming about a 4 wheeled electric off road fun creation for a while though and a couple(maybe 4?) of those big motors might be just the thing there! I have to get the bike done first.

 

[mdd0127]

I'm sorry that my confidence comes off as arrogance. I speak and type bluntly. I didn't mean to say that you didn't know what you're talking about in general. I simply meant that you don't know me or my specific project. You never know, I could be the next Einstein(not). Heck, I could be an alien. Maybe I do have it all figured out? Maybe I'll build a 5000watt weld blob bird turd yard sculpture? You don't know. I didn't ask for anyone's opinion on whether or not my project will work??? I have no need to prove my abilities to people online. I think you're a little touchy about this for some reason. I'm sorry that your investors were flaky. I'm also sorry that I didn't come on here, introduce myself, and ask everyone to help me build an e-bike. I just did the research, and stayed up many nights thinking things out. The funding costs you're talking about aren't unreasonable. My parts budget for this build is around double what you spent on your recumbent. Expensive downhill stuff eats money up fast though. If my investors bail, I'll just have to build the frame out of chromo, do an Aussiejester, catch a buzz and get friendly with the band saw and grinder(wow). It might take a lot longer but I'll build it. My experience as an industrial maintenance tech has given me some insight into drive systems and speed reduction is not rocket science. Building a frame also, is not rocket science. Mellow out man. Don't be so negative. If you don't like my ideas, the way I type, or what I post, just don't read my posts.

Anyone have a motor?

 

[recumpence]

Wisdom is taking advice from those who have gone before you. It seems to me you are unwilling to take any constructive advice unless it is in total agreement with you.

I will cease advising you.........

I wish you the best.

Matt

 

[mdd0127]

I have searched for advise that I needed and thank everyone on this site and in this field for what they do. I wish you the best as well.

 

[enoob]

if you were serious youd be looking at getting at least 2 motors .

cant prototype and expect perfection outta the gate . if im wrong and your able to cobble together a competitive crawler for 2500 then your investors would have the faith to get behind you and buck up the needed $100 or so.

seems to me a prototype needs a motor before much else . id say commit to the cromoly frame and pray AJ will still give you advise after that unwarranted jab

if the bikes a ripper then you can move from the cromoly to what ever the hell it is that your planning . any savvy investor will see past the cromo if the design is worth it

 

[mdd0127]

enoob,

Very wise suggestions. I have no idea who AJ is but I truly meant no offense and can't see where I made any jabs. I think I've found a motor. One of the awesome members here just pm'd me. I know I got out of order with the parts ordering process but the process has just evolved from a quick meeting. I found some nice deals on bike parts and needed them for measurements for the frame so I got them first and decided to work on the more tricky stuff as I go. Can't order pulleys until I determine final kV, etc. Let's just say, the process might not be perfect but I'm working on it. As for asking for a few more bucks, I'm sure it will eventually happen. I'd just like to have certain things done before I do.

Thanks again for all the help.

Here's a pic of the crawler:

 

[mdd0127]

Oh! AJ! I get it. I totally meant no offense to Kim! That was a compliment. He's a genius. I've been following the cruiser build forever. Ha. I guess it really is hard to get things across online. I suck at talking on phones too! I'm not even a cruiser guy and that bike is sick. I love the cobalt blue. I was going to suggest that he try an old Orion Cobalt 225HCCA amp case for an esc heat sink. I think I have one in a tote buried in snow somewhere. Shipping to Australia though?

Anyway, lighten up guys. I wish there was such a thing as an internet pub so we could all sit, have a brew and a chat. I'm not mean. I just type mean I guess???

 

[recumpence]

There is another side to this that you are unaware of;

There used to be a guy on this forum (do a search under the name "Safe") who used to hammer people to death with "I am perfect" talk. I came on-board right at the height of his folly. So, I got sucked in. We are all gun-shy now, including me. On top of that, there has been some personal hammering on this forum in the last few days and everyone is getting a bit short.

I appologize, Man.

My wife communicates in an odd way by email. She is always asking me to edit her emails to people especially when there is a specific beef with someone. I have been guilty of it too. I think much depends on an established relationship (even on-line). Like if Kim or Miles said something to me like "Your idea for X is really stupid" I would know they are kidding around. But, that is because I have a good established relationship with them. In another thread I told someone off too harshly for a rude response and he took it awesome! I couldn't believe it! I thought he would just hammer me back.

These things generally work themselves out.........

Matt

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Jeesshh... Some folks are very touchy these days. We could all stand to chill.
I quit drinking coffee. It has mellowed me nicely.
But, I went off one day on some poor dude for a simple comment about triangulation of a frame. I'm no better. But damn.

I've got a motor. IT's the old style with no bell /skirt bearing.

12mm hardened shafting is easy to obtain and you don't have to have class 7 bearings although they would be nice
if you wanna drop the dough.

PM me if you don't have one yet.

 

[mdd0127]

I used to spend a lot of time on pirate4x4.com/forums back in the day but it changed. At first, there were a bunch of knowledgeable guys on there and as long as you searched first and didn't ask a bunch of already asked questions, you'd be alright. The flaming was pretty bad and it was a pretty rough site but it worked. Now, there are a bunch of people on there that just get on the internet to fight and argue. All of the questions that got asked too many times are everywhere now and it seems like the people on there that did care gave up. The hobby was growing like crazy but now that the cynical, immature crowd has taken over, it's been stagnant for a while and people are getting out of it altogether. I didn't see as much of that happening here. I thought that most of the people on here were here in a good mood, building fun stuff. I haven't seen too much drama here yet. I hope it doesn't get bad here too but the web is a reflection of the real world so we'll see. Even the deal with kIM and JohnCR makes me uncomfortable. I didn't read the whole thread but so it might be one of those friendly trash talking rivalries? Anything I post here will be constructive or positive. I probably won't post a whole lot because the last few days reminded me why I laid off the forums before. I get sucked in! Between building the bike, blabbing on the forums, doing what little work I have and living, I have no time left for my wife. I type really slow and read my posts a few times before I post them to make sure I don't come off mean or stupid. I'm waiting on a pm from mechanix and ready to send money so hopefully I'll have a motor soon. I'll make sure and post a quick writeup about the rewind because I haven't seen a thread about that here yet.

I think Conan O'Brien hit the nail on the head on his last show. He asked everyone to stop being so cynical. Wouldn't the world be a cool place if people's default response was a smile and encouragement instead or doubt and questions.

I read some of Safe's posts but must have missed the bad ones.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Jeremy Harris]

One of the problems with a big, multi-national, forum like this (in addition to the common problem of written comment being prone to misinterpretation) is that we have the added challenge of dealing with national traits and sensitivities. Some here are also dealing with the added challenge of using a second language, adding to the potential for misunderstanding.

My take on posts here will, inevitably, be coloured by my nationality (British), my normal use of the English language (which is often a bit different from North American or Antipodean usage) and what is or is not "normal" behaviour from my own perspective.

I guess we all need to be aware, and tolerant of, the way that other forum members will read what we write and adjust our thinking (and writing) accordingly. In the main, this seems to work OK. Most of us can adjust for the laid-back piss taking that typifies some of our Australian members, the rather direct approach of some of the North American members and the language difficulties that some of our non-English speaking members struggle with.

Jeremy

 

[matt_in_mtl]

One of the problems with a big, multi-national, forum like this (in addition to the common problem of written comment being prone to misinterpretation) is that we have the added challenge of dealing with national traits and sensitivities. Some here are also dealing with the added challenge of using a second language, adding to the potential for misunderstanding.

My take on posts here will, inevitably, be coloured by my nationality (British), my normal use of the English language (which is often a bit different from North American or Antipodean usage) and what is or is not "normal" behaviour from my own perspective.

I guess we all need to be aware, and tolerant of, the way that other forum members will read what we write and adjust our thinking (and writing) accordingly. In the main, this seems to work OK. Most of us can adjust for the laid-back piss taking that typifies some of our Australian members, the rather direct approach of some of the North American members and the language difficulties that some of our non-English speaking members struggle with.

Jeremy

and don't forget our British members propensity towards using words like Antipodean? :lol:

Good post Jeremy, well said.

-Matt

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Well, Matt, we (the British) did sort of create the amalgam of tongues which has become the English language, so I guess we have a duty to exploit it to it's fullest extent......

The other point I missed was timing, because this forum really is a sphere. Contributors to this forum span just about every time zone around the World, as far as I can tell. It'd be easy to think a post was being ignored and perhaps get a bit miffed when the reality is that the person most likely to give a useful response is tucked up in bed, because it's the middle of the night for them. The exception seems to be AJ. Just look at the crazy times (by Western Australian time) that he posts. Do you ever get any kip, Kim? I'm also a bit in awe of the late night posts that some of our North American contributors make. It must skew perspectives a bit when I'm posting here at 7am and for the person replying it's midnight.

Jeremy

 

[dontsendbubbamail]

Boys drink more beer and post pictures of you ebikes!!! Less talk and more pictures please!!! Bubba likes to watch.

Bubba

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Bubba,

I saw you coming from a mile away.

 

[AussieJester]

Bubba,

I saw you coming from a mile away.

Hard to sneak up on anyone with the screaming sound of the mighty outrunners
on bubbas build

The exception seems to be AJ. Just look at the crazy times (by Western Australian time) that he posts. Do you ever get any kip, Kim?

HAHA yeah i do mate, im an early to bed early to rise type, usually in bed most nights ~8.30-9-30pm and up at 4.30-5am

mdd0127-i must admit i didn't think your initial posts were very impressive with the attitude and lack of technical
knowledge that 'appeared' to be expressed, Matt.S is one if not the most experienced custom fabricator
of precision cnced parts on this forum, he has built ALOT of high end ebikes he's not only very experienced @ making
parts but sourcing others and organising the funding for costly projects, his reply was one based on experience and
shouldn't be brushed aside as again, it 'appeared' at first you were doing mdd0127 Alas it is true words are taken
the wrong way, a way not intended by the person expressing them, i myself fell victim recently because of my
misunderstanding to another members comments.

I thankyou for your kind words regarding my own project and abilities I wish you all the best in yours, *subscribed*

KiM