Prodeco Phantom Knockoff!!!

[ecowheelz]

As a potential dealer for a line of e-bikes, this is the last thing we want to see!



http://www.shopgbike.com/products/stealth/index.html

A picture of the updated 2012 Prodeco Phantom:

For a company that touts it's years of research and developement, and states "USA built is the only approach" -- this Chinese knockoff looks eerily similar to the Prodeco Phantom. I realize the parts are all sourced from China, but obviously the design is in no way original. Actually, it looks exactly the same with almost all the same components. The only advantage Prodeco has is that their bike is a little more appealing style-wise and it's selling for less.

I realize to most people here this really doesn't matter. But as an e-bike dealer, the last thing we want to see is someone selling a knockoff brand of the products we sell. Not only does it create more competition, but it brings the value of the line in question if other people are producing the exact same products. You'll be hardpressed to find an exact match to any of the e-bikes we carry. We try to choose companies with unique designs and styling.

Anyways... just thought some of you might find this interesting since Prodeco has been discussed on this board a lot recently. Along with all the delays and other problems at Prodeco, this is just one more reason we won't be carrying their line of e-bikes right now...

 

[ecowheelz]

OK... I'm not 100% sure this is a Chinese knockoff. The company founder is listed on Linkedin and his profile described him as being in the "Import / Export" business. Wonder if these are actually coming from China -- or Prodeco?

Either way, as a dealer we really don't want to see our brands be diminished like this...

 

[Ypedal]

prodeco ripped off ( my personal opinion and the bitching session seen on yahoo groups ) the pedego name to begin with.. more of the same.

 

[grindz145]

How can you say knockoff, when these are all just rebadged chinese designs?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

How can you say knockoff, when these are all just rebadged chinese designs?

Couldn't have put it better myself. Prodeco are just another importer/rebadger AFAICS, as all their "designs" are available in similar form from China. I don't doubt that they ensure the spec of the bikes they import is tighter than the generic bikes available all over the place, maybe they even do some of the assembly and checking themselves, as this is traditionally the weakest point of a lot of Chinese stuff, but they don't claim to be a manufacturer, do they? Nothing wrong with importing stuff to an assured quality and reselling it with a warranty, in my view.

 

[rdvi5]

According to a post on the Prodeco Facebook page by the CEO, the frames are their own unique design. Either that is not true, or their design has now been copied. Not an uncommon practice in China it seems. I recall reading a Motorola web page, listing procedures regarding how to spot inferior fake Motorola products.

 

[Russell]

The price appears to be a bit higher than the Prodeco so no advantage there, besides Prodeco has cuter models



-R

 

[ecowheelz]

...they don't claim to be a manufacturer, do they? Nothing wrong with importing stuff to an assured quality and reselling it with a warranty, in my view.

You're right, there's nothing wrong with importing generic products from China, conducting your own QC and providing a warranty. Unfortunately, almost everything is manufactured in China or Taiwan these days (Taiwan being higher quality). No matter where it's made, we tend to choose companies that develop their own unique products with their own distictive designs. Nothing wrong with generic stuff, we just try to stay away from it since it's often cheaper and lower quality.

What I do have a problem with, is companies that claim their products are U.S. designed and built -- when in fact 90% of the work is done overseas. Directly from the Prodeco website (where the terminology has changed multiple times): " After spending years on research and development, we believe USA built is the only approach."

What exactly does "USA Built" mean? Prior to discovering this exact replica, I assumed Prodeco created their own unique designs and had all the parts manufactured in China. Then, the parts were shipped to the U.S. where they assembled and QC'd the bikes themselves -- hence "USA Built".

But if this knockoff bike was imported from China in this exact configuration, then the "USA Built" claim is even more in question. Someone in China just happened to put together the exact same bike with all the exact same parts? Seems kind of fishy. Of course, we still don't know if this knockoff was provided by Prodeco itself (and not a Chinese factory). Would be nice to know. Think I'll contact the seller

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Thats one of the downsides of doing business in China. Knockoffs are everywhere. My view of "Made in USA" are hands of paid American workers creating something that would otherwise not be there.

Some company in China makes those bike frames. Im sure whomever makes them sell them wholesale at a discount to companies that simply put their own stickers on.

 

[rdvi5]

If Prodeco did design the frame and had it manufactured in China, it would be easy for a factory to copy and distribute to others. Even if Prodeco had a patent on the design, how easily can they sue a foreign company in a communist country?

We know most of the Prodeco bikes parts are imported from China. It would be much easier for a Chinese company to acquire the same parts cheaper locally, and assemble the bikes themselves (although quality control may be inferior). The higher price may be due to Chinese greed, or perhaps the overseas shipping costs of completed bikes, not to mention possibly higher US import duties. The price could also be due to the greed of the US dealers, but why charge more than Prodeco if not necessary.

Importing one of these bikes to Canada from a US dealer would be more expensive than just the higher purchase price. According to NAFTA terms, a product imported from, but not built in the US, would be subject to Canadian custom duties. That would not be the case for the Prodeco bikes, which are built/assembled in the US. For Canadians, the Prodeco bikes are still the better choice of the two similar ebikes...

- cheaper price
- no duties
- likely better quality control
- longer warranty period

 

[ecowheelz]

What normally happens in China, is they take an expensive brand-name product and produce it for less. I have a really hard time believing a company in China would take the exact same frame and parts, and create a knockoff that's more expensive than the so-called original. What would be the point? I'm guessing that these bikes are coming from the exact same place. I'm trying to get ahold of the seller to see if I can get some more information. Are they coming from Prodeco or a Chinese factory???

 

[rdvi5]

I doubt Prodeco is providing them, they can't even meet their own demands without months of delays. Of course, it's possible they gave manufacturing permission in exchange for royalties. It is also possible the local non-Prodeco US dealer had special ordered the bikes made, hoping to challenge Prodeco for sales. However that would be a failed attempt considering the higher price.

So far we only know of the US dealer selling the bikes. There may be yet undiscovered European/Asian dealers who can sell the bikes cheaper locally than importing overseas from Prodeco. If so, Chinese manufacturers would build the bikes as long as they think they have a market available. Perhaps this is just getting started.


...Just took a closer look at that ad. The $1449.99 price is MSRP, and only $50.99 more expensive than Prodeco's $1399 MSRP. It is possible they could still challenge Prodeco for sales in the US, depending on the actual selling price. However the warranty, and possibly quality control will not compete with Prodeco.

 

[Jason27]

No one's been able to beat prodeco on price. They sell some really cool looking bikes for cheap. I wonder what it cost to make a phantom?

 

[ddk]

prodego/co might be using the same business model as behringer (a cheap audio manufacturer).
One of the ways behringer undersells other manufacturers is by buying factory 'down time' between larger factory runs. Of course this means huge lead-times if behringer is out of stock on any particular model.
Perhaps it's why there's such a high lead-time between prodego/co delivery?
...who knows *shrugs*

 

[Jeremy Harris]

What I do have a problem with, is companies that claim their products are U.S. designed and built -- when in fact 90% of the work is done overseas.

I agree, and have made the point here before about another product that made a similar claim. The problem seems to primarily be a US one, I believe, as here in the UK (and across the EU, I believe) the law prohibits such claims by advertisers, with fairly tough penalties for misleading advertisements. To carry the tag "Made in UK" for example, the major part of the manufacturing process, not just assembling components manufactured in the Far East, would have had to have been done here. In fact we have a requirement for the country of origin to be marked on pretty much everything sold here, including food, so consumers can make an informed choice when purchasing. I'm generally against excessive legislation, but in this case I believe that forcing clarity as to the true origin of products is generally a good thing.

The remaining big grey area here is Ebay, where sellers fraudulently claim to be in this country when they are really in China. I got caught by this earlier this week, when I specifically filtered an ebay search for a UK supplier, found one apparently 30 miles away from me, yet ended up dealing with someone in China after I'd committed to buy. I'm taking action with Ebay to try and stop this, because it removes a great deal of buyer protection - returning stuff to China under warranty is so expensive as to make any warranty worthless, plus it can't be enforced under UK law, as the seller was outside the country.

 

[Jason27]

I totally agree that eBay is full of scammers.. it's a waste of time in my opinion

 

[Hillhater]

I totally agree that eBay is full of scammers.. it's a waste of time in my opinion

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Frog]

No one's been able to beat prodeco on price. They sell some really cool looking bikes for cheap. I wonder what it cost to make a phantom?

About $900 to 1000 to build the bike they make most of the profit from the accessories. These bike only work for someone that has no idea how to build a bike but I bet in a few years these same bikes will be selling for $2000 once they have more of a market.

 

[ambroseliao]

Did you folks see the other cool bike that gbike sells? :lol: :wink:

http://www.shopgbike.com/products/chopper/index.html

 

[anthony_prodeco]

As a potential dealer for a line of e-bikes, this is the last thing we want to see!



http://www.shopgbike.com/products/stealth/index.html

A picture of the updated 2012 Prodeco Phantom:

For a company that touts it's years of research and developement, and states "USA built is the only approach" -- this Chinese knockoff looks eerily similar to the Prodeco Phantom. I realize the parts are all sourced from China, but obviously the design is in no way original. Actually, it looks exactly the same with almost all the same components. The only advantage Prodeco has is that their bike is a little more appealing style-wise and it's selling for less.

I realize to most people here this really doesn't matter. But as an e-bike dealer, the last thing we want to see is someone selling a knockoff brand of the products we sell. Not only does it create more competition, but it brings the value of the line in question if other people are producing the exact same products. You'll be hardpressed to find an exact match to any of the e-bikes we carry. We try to choose companies with unique designs and styling.

Anyways... just thought some of you might find this interesting since Prodeco has been discussed on this board a lot recently. Along with all the delays and other problems at Prodeco, this is just one more reason we won't be carrying their line of e-bikes right now...

PRODECO TECHNOLOGIES RESPONSE: Hi, this is Rob Provost, the CEO of Prodeco Technologies. The dealer who is offering this bike we come to find out buys the bikes from us and then places decals over our name. The bike is 100% a Prodeco Technologies Phantom but this dealer pretends it is his bike. He will be getting a Cease and Desist letter next week. Something of this sort was brought to our attention a few months ago and the dealer was told to stop but obviously he has not if it is the same character. We do not allow any company to use our designs and we do not manufacture for companies who will place their name on our bike. Our company has 100% designed our bikes and build them in the USA. There are no other bikes like them. Our bikes cannot be purchased in Taiwan or China and as of now, we know of no knockoff's which actually ship. Our bikes consist of years of R & D and the frames are unique to only us. Our bikes are built the exact same way Trek, Cannondale, Specilaized, Optibike and others build some of their bikes and we do it in the USA. We will be showing photos of our USA production facility in our 2013 catalog for those who are not believers. Our local news station did a broadcast and showed it on TV in South Florida. It is on youtube also. This past year we also had to file complaints with The Ministry of Commerce for the Republic of China due to trading websites fraudulently offering our bikes stating shipping from China. We were furious and still are. It is almost impossible to monitor those thieves that offer our bikes. If someone tries to buy them, they will be taken. Our company does not relabel Chinese or Taiwan bikes and sell them in the USA as almost all other companies do. Some of these other companies consider themselves manufacturers because they picked colors and what the label looks like along with saddle style. They repack them in new boxes and say "Look at our new bike". We take up to 2 years to develop a model. Bikes start as drawing I do personally myself and then they become the final product. The Stride for example was a completely different frame but the engineers told me I had to be careful how we were forming the frame. We knew of no other 26" step through bike that folded. There are 22" and 24" (wheel size) bikes but never a 26". It took so many test and revisions to produce that frame. Each supporting component such as brakes, BB, Headset, spookes, rims, etc.. are ordered individually by anywhere from 1,000 to 10,000 pcs and shipped to our facility. We have 6 guys who all day long lacing wheels and recently purchased Hollan Mechanics wheel building machines to support faster in house production. I hate I have to come on a DIY forum to defend myself but if someone could not tell that was our Phantom X bike with decals over it, then I had no choice. This is not even the forum for these types of posting but since the moderator left it up, I must defend our position on it.

There are many people on this forum who are just so negative to begin with and given 1% of information, they try to turn it into fact. It is just amazing how they try to do that and I still not understand the negativity. Thankfully there are a few who have logic and reasoning abilities who come to our defense or are openminded to hear the truth. We gave 48 jobs these past 2 years to USA Americans who most would be out of work otherwise and giving another 50 jobs over the next 18 months. We get people out of there cars and on a high quality electric bike that is priced correctly and honestly. Everyone especially on this forum understand an electric bike in the simples terms is a traditional bike with a motor and battery system. Yes, we have to develop the frames differently and the frame cost is higher but we are amazed a some of the ebikes out there with the component grade they have and the price charged. Especially the companies who mix a few high end parts for name's sake but the rest of the parts are typically found on $150-$200 bikes. Last year one of our internet dealers did a huge report on competitors bikes and the parts they used. He was showing me how many of them use parts which are found on the $99 Walmart bikes, yet they addded 1 or 2 expensive parts, a nice saddle and grips and then sell for twice what it should cost. We see bikes out there selling for $1500-$2000 which should be about $699-$799. Some of the $2000-$2500 should be $1299. We felt the DIY community would be the community who would appreciate our bikes the most since they had the knowledge but what we get is a predominate negative response. We understand many of the positive comments posted get deleted because they are believed to be written by our company. We never once have written a false review and never once written any review on our bikes and posted them anywhere. We have over the past 3 mon ths been monitoring the reviews left on our bikes. We have find out some our from competitors and those same competitors extensively leave false reviews on their bikes. It is amazing. Those are same type who don't allow comments on videos and such.

I summary, our bikes are not sold in China and cannot be purchased there. Our bikes are built in the USA with components coming from 22 suppliers as of this month. The frames are our own unique designs along with our new battery system. Since there are no middle channels, our bikes are 35% less expensive. The battery is also built by being direct with the cell producer which is one of the world's largest and case company who makes the case for us. There is no middle channel and this allows us to build the battery with LiFEPO4 Cells and still be less expensive than any other company. Everyone knows for Ebikes, LiFEPO4 cells are the best for longevity but if trying to be the lightest bike, they are too dense. The cost is much higher for LiFEPO4 but worth every penny for long term.

There is also i this thread someone who commented on our company name and stated we copied the name. It is just incredulous we have to even defend that. A little background on us: In 2006, we had a company named ECO TECH. This was with another partner and our first venture into Electric bikes. There was also another company we had which was manufacturing electronics so we understood the manufaturing process. During that period, we also started another company in 2008 offering individual bike components and this was to further learn the industry and build relationships with component manufacturers around the world. In 2009, due to one of the main partners having to leave, ECO TECH cease to exist and the partnership broke up. We had to make a critical decision at that time whether to move forward with electric bikes or give up on electric bikes and concentrate on the electronics company. Then we were bringing in bikes from overseas and doing what most manufacturers (which are really distributors) do today. We decided to close down our electronics company and went full steam ahead with developing only electric bikes. We knew though we had to scrape buying from other manufacturers and concentrate on our own designs. We started developing the first prototypes under our bicycle components company. We started looking for backers for the company at the same time. We even met with Daymond John, the guy who started Fubu and now on the show Shark Tank. We settled with a fam ily friend who invested the 7 figures needed to get production started. We also needed a new name come 2010 with testing completied of the prototypes and the release of the first 4 models. We decided to use my last name and the 2 other founders last names (Daniel Del Aguila and Richard Acosta) to form the company name. Prodeco Technologies is based on the following name: "PRO" Provost, "DE" Del Aguila, "CO" Acosta. What we liked about the name is we kept ECO TECH in it. Our website is prodecotech and the last 7 characters are the same as our 2006 company. Just my name and Daniel's name was added if looking at it that way but it also included the 3rd founder. The company at that time was owned by 4 founders and their wives. Our entire life was in this company and that is why we chose the name. People have stated the name has no meaning and we should have more of a bike or green name but the names means everything to us and all the blood, sweat and tears that went into building this company to where it is today and no other reason. A bonus with the name when we decided on it was that we also wanted the name to work for our design. Our design is an Art Deco theme (think 1930's - 1950's big round automoible fenders), which is the curved frames. We are in South Florida, the Art Deco capital of the world and when designing the bike 26" bike, we were looking at doing a quarter round of 80 degrees from the rear axle to the head tube. I hope the name is understood now because someone on here mentioned we copied the name which is the most ludicrous statement and makes no sense. The bikes are our own unique designs using the highest quality components at prices 30-40% less, so why would we possibly associate ourselves with any other company or name.

 

[anthony_prodeco]

I totally agree that eBay is full of scammers.. it's a waste of time in my opinion

PRODECO TECHNOLOGIES RESPONSE: Hi Jason, I also believed eBay was full of scammers. I never liked ebay and thought if buying on there it was a gamble. A year ago someone changed my concept of it. We do allow them to sell the bikes on their and they became one of our largest independent dealers. We try our best to work close with them and give good service. We do however monitor ebay as well as other sales channels for the possibility of a scammer. A few weeks ago one popped up but we had him shut down within 4 days. We are now monitoring the internet more than ever. We have many case files started and hiring additional office people to also assist with that. Talking about hiring people, if anyone is in South Florida looking for a job, please come by. We have many spots to fill. When we move in October/November, we will need up to 50 more people over the next 12-18 months. Our move should be finished in December but we will be up and running there in November. If someone is out of state but has an incredible background and resumer and looking to make our company a career, we would also pay all moving expenses and assist with getting set up in South Florida. - Robert Provost, CEO, Prodeco Technologies.