Re: HT Norko Aline - version mid drive, adaptto+rv100pro

[sn0wchyld]

just a small update on the build... ive been working as much as i can on the torque plates inbetween uni and the rest of life's demands. While there kinda heavy at the moment (about 3kg+ for the both ) once ive milled em down to size i should be able to knock more than half that weight off, while extending my wheelbase by a good few cm. there gonna be bulletproof too by the looks

Ive also changed my mind a little on the battery cases, i started bending and cutting some galv. iron into shape, but with my limited tools (hammer, tinsnips, plires) its taking too long and isnt going to work out well enough. So ive ordered some shaped square galv that will fit 2 batts side by side with enough space for a little padding and to run the wires. I should be able to get a near-watertight case made up fairly easily, and still be able to remove the cover easily for inspection and whatever.

out with the old (idea)...

in with the new...

ignore the ample tape, its just there to protect my bike while I figure out the position of the case...


more to come...

 

[rui_fujino]

Looking "in progress" :wink: I see u've added light for your bike (1600lm!!), where did u get such a strong light? Looking forward to hearing casing complete! Good luck with bullet proof casing

 

[sn0wchyld]

Looking "in progress" :wink: I see u've added light for your bike (1600lm!!), where did u get such a strong light? Looking forward to hearing casing complete! Good luck with bullet proof casing

its a combination of a 1200 lm flashlight from DX and 2 190lm headlamps from a local electronics store. chances are the real output is much less than this though, hence the 'manufacturer claimed'

 

[sn0wchyld]

I havent done much in recent days, got too much important stuff at uni, but as of tomorrow I should have a bit more time to hopefully finish off the bike, at least to the point that its running...

in the mean time ive been thinking of painting my controller (lyen12fet) to give it a more subtle black look rather than it's garish silver... and was wondering if there is a particular type of paint I should use I dont want to go useing a normal off the shelf spray paint only to find that it has some thermally insulating properties or something...

 

[oatnet]

in the mean time ive been thinking of painting my controller (lyen12fet) to give it a more subtle black look rather than it's garish silver... and was wondering if there is a particular type of paint I should use I dont want to go useing a normal off the shelf spray paint only to find that it has some thermally insulating properties or something...

Is there _any_ paint that will not add thermal insulation?

 

[MadRhino]

I just fume a thin spray of flat black primer, on the controller and Andersons. I also do it once in a while on scratches and everything shiny, on my 3 dirt bikes.

Only the street racer has colours and stickers. I plan a red anodized 24 fet controller on this one, monted in the front of the triple crown fork under the headlight. 8)

 

[sn0wchyld]

Delays delays and more delays!! grrrrr...

The lbs told me today that he cant find any spokes to fit my motor! the largest guage he could find in the correct length was 14g, and as a result they pull through the eyelets!

MR suggested washers as an option, but I think I'd rather do it right the first time, so Im going to be ordering spokes from the US, witch will probably take a week or so to get 'ere. Least that way Ill be able to still get SS spokes in black.

On another front, work is progressing on the custom torque plates-come drop-outs. The guys at my uni workshop have been masivly helpfull in getting the two plates of steel cut to size, bolted together and then made into swiss cheze for some weight reduction. One of them is almost complete, just needs some tidying up and have the axle hole cut to size, the other still needs to be trimmed down a bit, but I cant get onto the mill till next week. Not a big deal since I'll be waiting till atleast late next week to get the spokes.

If anyone knows somewhere closer than the US to source good spokes from please let me know, otherwise I think ill order some 13g spokes from http://www.Holmesbikes.com over the weekend. Holmes, if your reading this, thank MR for the refferall :wink:. Nothing against john, just would like to get this running asap, its so close yet still sooooooooooo far!!

Anyway, heres some new pics, I'll come back and add a short vid of the milling work a bit later...

• Holes drilled and countersunk...

Bolted up...

Mills away!

Shaping and smoothing...

Weight reduction...

 

[doc007]

very slick!! Just what I plan to do with my bike. Are those tapered nuts you're running on the other side of the bolt?

 

[sn0wchyld]

very slick!! Just what I plan to do with my bike. Are those tapered nuts you're running on the other side of the bolt?

M8's yea...

and, after about 40min with an angle grinder...

Sadly, not as much weight reduction as I would have liked... 120g so far. Hopefully with some further work on the mill I can knock off another 100g+...

 

[oatnet]

JohnRobHolmes can supply you with the spokes you need:

"Custom 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 gauge spokes and Handbuilt Wheels":
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16218

 

[doc007]

i wouldn't get too crazy with weight reduction just yet. I would get the square notches/ clamping mechanism for the axle cut into the metal first. You will want to keep axle surface in contact with as much metal as you can. Especially if you plan to use regen. Once you get that sorted you can try to start milling off weight without compromising the surface contact area at the axle.

Everything looks great so far! can't wait to see the finished product!

 

[sn0wchyld]

i wouldn't get too crazy with weight reduction just yet. I would get the square notches/ clamping mechanism for the axle cut into the metal first. You will want to keep axle surface in contact with as much metal as you can. Especially if you plan to use regen. Once you get that sorted you can try to start milling off weight without compromising the surface contact area at the axle.

Everything looks great so far! can't wait to see the finished product!

Yea the pic shown has the axle hole far in the background, so there's heaps of surface area that the axle will be in contact with (each dropout will be completely enclosed and will be 20mm thick) so a total of ~ 40mm, should be enough i think . Ive actually taken off even more since then, Ive managed to shave a total of 20% off the weight so far, but now I think ill leave it until the bikes running before I jennycraig it any more.

The issues with the spokes might just have to be solved by using washers so 14g spokes'll fit, not ideal in my mind but the only other option I have is to drill/ream out the eyelets so they fit 12g or larger spokes, I'd rather go with the washers since I can always switch to thicker spokes in the future, doing it the other way around isnt really possible (starting with 12+g and wanting to switch to 14g later) ... plus it means I can get the wheel laced this week.

the other bonus with that is I might even have it running this weekend!! WOW! its only taken a half dozen or so months! Im just finishing off the bat cases, witch while a bit wider than i'd like should do the job for now. once that and the other torque plate's done (hopefully by tues/wed) ill be pretty much ready! Be bloody awsome If i can have this puppy running in time for my birthday (sat)

 

[sn0wchyld]

its been along time coming, but finally, the day has arived!! well, almost...

The torque plate-come-drop-outs are finally finished and installed! Im pretty happy with how they've turned out, particually since this is my first time trying to machine metal. Ive managed to get such a tight fit that the nuts on the axle are pretty much there just for show, I can ride around on it without em if need be. the axle wont budge a single mm. And it only took about 10hours with a combination of the uni's mill, a small array of files and an angle grinder to make.

The dis-advantage is that changing a flat will take a bit more time, since I'd have to remove the 6 bolts that hold the rear on, aswell as the breaks and the deralur. But then It gives me the advantage that in about 10 min I can change the bike back to 100% stock, with the old rear on in its place, for those days I want to use this bike as the manufacturer intended. Like that'll ever happen

The battery cases are the final piece of the puzzle. They're basically finished, just need to finish attaching the straps to hold em on the frame and a few other little nit bits and she'll be ALIVE!! Should be sometime this week when i get the chance...

so here's the motor installed on the bike... if you look closely you can see how the wheelbase has been extended by about 2.5cm (the old tire sat further forward, roughly inline with the bash guard)...

you can also see half of one of the batt cases on the floor beneath the bike too...

and a close up of the dropouts. Ill get some better pics soon, as I'll have em off again for some rust proofing and a bit more weight reduction...

I REALLY need to get the front laced into a matching rim now, looks weird having a red and a black rim...
In case your wondering the batts are going in a long rectangular case alongside the top tube of the frame, atleast untill I get something more 'pretty' made, probably from fibreglass or similar.

hopefully next time ill be somewhere between and .
till then...

ps
now at 88.888%

 

[doc007]

ohh ok, i see now! your design is a little different than mine in the sense that I will use a clamping mechanism to "bite/grip" the axle. This way I just need to loosen the clamping screws on both sides to pull the tire off if i need to change the tube.. like this:

 

[sn0wchyld]

ITS ALIVE ITS ALLLLLIIIVEEEEE MU hahahahahahahaaaa!



Its been a loong time coming, but its finally here. Dont know wether I feel happy or just plain relieved that its actually working!

Looks bloody awfull, since ive basically just ductaped everthing on in order to do a quick ride around the block in the middle of the night. Wires going everywhere too! Really shows that I need to put the batteries lower on the bike too, as its a little top heavy. Ill post some pics of the monstrosity tomorow.

The CA is proving to be a tad off on its readings. Showed me having used 1.2ah just riding up and down my street a half dozen times !! also showed max amps as 90, given my controller is limited to 45 Im thinking that it needs calibrating, and also showed -ve amps even after having been zeroed. and a pack V of just 39... witch is a bit off since im running 20s lipo @ 4.1V. Hopefully that means the AH used is 200% of what it should be too, otherwise im gonna need waay more batteries. I know I live on a bit of a hill, but even so, I think I may have ridden 500m at the most, with only a little WOT, 140 wh's a km seems a bit sad .

Its early days too, but somehow I dont think ill be leaving it at 2kw for long. its fun, but its hardly scary. Maybe my expectations were a little high too, given ive been day dreaming of this for months... A proper shakedown tomorow will hopefully put the 'egrin' firmly on my face, as apposed to the current 'esmile'.

In any case, Ive already bought some more batts for a 24s setup, witch means that ill also be pulling the hub apart sooner rather than later for some beefier phase wires, some breating holes and temp probes. And as funds allow probably a 18fet or something . 2 packs should mean that I can also have one sitting waiting for me when I get home from uni, ready for a afternoon joy ride !

Ill be ordering a gopro soon, so expect some footage over the coming few weeks or so... In the mean time some pics and crap video taken from my 7yr old camera will have to suffice (comming soon)...

 

[sn0wchyld]

ohh ok, i see now! your design is a little different than mine in the sense that I will use a clamping mechanism to "bite/grip" the axle. This way I just need to loosen the clamping screws on both sides to pull the tire off if i need to change the tube.. like this:

no doubt that's an advantage, something that I might do when I make the next set of torque plates. Still, I like the idea that this setup is basically never going to break, or even loosen off... pretty sure the axle'd break long before these dropouts.

 

[doc007]

wow it's almost done! congrats!

i cant believe u only have an "e-smile" ...Ive seen builds at 72v with an HS motor doing some impressive acceleration and top speed. I really hope its a wiring or programming issue bc I plan to go with a similar set-up. I know the CA can limit amps and the controller can be programmed... perhaps Lyen might have some idea of what is happening.

good luck! looking forward to the vids!

 

[sn0wchyld]

well, some good and some potentially bad today. Went for a proper ride, and after there was definatly more of an egrin than an esmile. turns out that the other day I made a stupid mistage on my first ride... I had the 3 way switch set to low power! no wonder it felt a bit sad. Things were much better later yesterday/early today, though I still think ill be upping the watts pretty soon. for today I was limiting the current via the ca to just 25a, partly to go easy on the new lipo and partly to get a feel for how hot a stock ht will get when pushed at that rate up a bunch of hills.

The short of it is it went really well! at worst the motor was only warm to the touch, as were the phase wires and the controller. I guess 25a is pretty safe since I pushed it up some ~500m hills that were probably around a 10% or more grade.

luckily, yesterday the CA WAS reading the amps at about double what they should be, and after about 10 min messing round with a multimeter Ive got the Volts displaying correctly too to within about 200mv.
Ive gone and cleaned up the wires and batt cases too, so they look a bit more stealthy and tidy as apposed to cheap and nasty. pics coming soon, just cant really be assed atm since its the end of a long day of study and working on the bike.

however...

A strange issue did arrise when I went to charge up the pack tonight though... My setup is that I basically charge the 8 5s packs that I have as one giant 5s 40ah pack. I was charging at 35amps, but after happily pumping in ~25 ahs the charger showed that the IR of the cells had jumped dramatically, from about .3mohms to about 3mohms the charger entered safe charge mode where it was only pushing in .5A. I stoped everthing, unpluged all the packs and checked the individual cells after a 5min wait, they were all perfectly balanced (as you'd expect) and seemed fine (still all at room temp, no signs of puff or anything else dangerous)...
So i figured try reconnecting and start again, and from that point on everything was fine. Cells mesured the same IR as before the spike, and happily accepted 5, 10, 15 and eventually 20 amps untill they got to 4.1v, (where I set the cuttoff too)

Heres some pics for those of you with more lipo experience to see if you can desipher what happened. My only guess is a loose connection somewhere that caused the charger to freak out (and rightly so). My only other thought is that I was charging outside, where it was pretty cold (got down to 10deg by the time i finished charging) not sure if that could cause issues either. all seems fine for now, will check 'em again in the morn to make sure i dont have a dud pack.

 

[sn0wchyld]

well after going for a long ride today, it would appear that the batteries themselves are fine. they were still perfectly balanced this arvo before the ride, and ill check em again tomorow but for now I'm putting it down to a bad connection somewhere.

The ride today was much better. Managed to figure out the ebraking, witch is great since I still only have a front break, and the pads are on their last legs. Went for about 1.5 hours ride, and only managed to use ~5.5ah. And since my CA is still reading 55amps peaks it would seem that its still overreading the amps/ah used a tad.

motor was only warm to the touch the whole ride, witch was 90% hilly terrain, with a few 20% pluss grades, even one short one that would have been close to 40% (its hard to walk up). lots of WOT. the ht did it all, at only 25A. after a final 500m climb up a ~5% incline and after sitting inside for a minute the motor did warm up a bit more (no more airflow), the outside was measured at 40degC. while riding though I doubt it'd have ever gotten over 30 or so. Phase wires were in much the same range. Ill start turning up the power over the next week or so but untill I get a temp probe in there and maby some holes/bigger wires im gonna keep it pretty conservative. 25amps is still fun on the trails anyway.

Unfortunatly, the vids i made today turned out as utter crap. The new sd card I bought was supposed to handle HD vid, but even 720p has it droping frames and adding heaps of noise and artifacts to the video. so for now, pics will have to suffice...

going to start work on a fibreglass case to hold 24s 15ah if I can figure out a way to do it while keeping it subtle.

 

[rui_fujino]

oh i see...here i thought you are happy with individual battery charging and not bulk charging... but now your looking for bulk charging...well, i sent you message on other thread so let me know how your going around to it! :wink:

 

[sn0wchyld]

oh i see...here i thought you are happy with individual battery charging and not bulk charging... but now your looking for bulk charging...well, i sent you message on other thread so let me know how your going around to it! :wink:

thanks for the feedback on bms mate, will buy from 'em soon i think.

ps,
im still bulk charging, I just need to reconfig the pack from a 20s 2p to a 5s 8p each time. Only takes about 5-10 min but would be nice to just come home and just plug it in, with a few battery medics from HK to keep the cells in check. that way I'd only have to reconfig once a month or something for a proper balance charge. with the 1.3kw charger it only takes about an hour and a half too!

 

[rui_fujino]

Hey, if your thinking of getting hk battery medic buy them from ebay, its cheaper and free shipping unlike hk!

 

[sn0wchyld]

Hey, if your thinking of getting hk battery medic buy them from ebay, its cheaper and free shipping unlike hk!

thats the plan!

whats the go with the bMS shipping? there's a cheap option there for 3-5 day shipping DHL in hongkong and just below 'australia express' 5-12 day for about $10 more... im guessing I have to select the australian one since that's where im shipping too, but I dont really want to pay an extra $10 if I don't have too... tightass i know.

 

[rui_fujino]

whats the go with the bMS shipping? there's a cheap option there for 3-5 day shipping DHL in hongkong and just below 'australia express' 5-12 day for about $10 more... im guessing I have to select the australian one since that's where im shipping too, but I dont really want to pay an extra $10 if I don't have too... tightass i know.

You can chose DHL no problem they only show you options that they can deliver to you.
I've accidentally put down wrong address and they didn't give me any choices...

 

[sn0wchyld]

whats the go with the bMS shipping? there's a cheap option there for 3-5 day shipping DHL in hongkong and just below 'australia express' 5-12 day for about $10 more... im guessing I have to select the australian one since that's where im shipping too, but I dont really want to pay an extra $10 if I don't have too... tightass i know.

You can chose DHL no problem they only show you options that they can deliver to you.
I've accidentally put down wrong address and they didn't give me any choices...

ha cheers mate. 240W and a 900W will be ordered shortly.

in other news ive made a rather important discovery. my controller's 3 way switch was not setup as I thought at 30 100 120, but at 30 66 100. here am I thinking ill have to switch to 24s+ before ill be able to get to some exciting speeds and im running around at 66% of my top speed!!!! I'm sure I asked lyen to send out the controller with these settings as defult but like a few other things I guess they got 'lost in translation'. Also explains why my range has been huge (~30km wot on 10ah), and why I haven't had any problems with heat (The hottest ive had the motor was ~45 deg C on the sidecover). Im ordering the last of the batts that I need to get a 20s 20ah pack running, though 24s 15ah is very tempting. when this rain clears a bit ill go for a decent ride at full power and see how I feel...

a question about motor efficiency cropped up though,

everyone I think knows that the optimum efficiency is around 80-90% of no load speed, but looking at justin's simulator it shows that with less throttle the efficiency curve moves lower by the same amount. is this actually the case in the real world? ie there's no real disadvantage in efficency at the same given speed for different voltages?

for example, 20s wot on the sim gets me to ~50 km'h, 80% throttle with 24s gets me to around the same speed and the efficiency curves look about identical the amp draw is proportional, as is the range and other factors. if this is the case there's little reason not to go with 24s?

the whole reason I ask is that im concerned with overheating the motor on trails and the like... but if I can simply limit myself to say, er, 66% throttle :wink: would this mean that im effectively riding around with ~16s, with the lower speed efficiency curve to match?