Re: HT Norko Aline - version mid drive, adaptto+rv100pro

[sn0wchyld]

quick update -
no load down to about 2.6A (77V)! I'd been worried about the adaptto working well with these revolt motors given the little bit i'd found online (>1kw no load for the rv120!!!) but it seems they just need some tuning, as the auto setup doesn't work well at all. still yet to put the motor under load, so its yet to prove itself, but running fairly well now (if still a tad noisy for my liking). I think that may be due to the whole bike resonating at certain frequencies though, and maybe the motor not being as well balanced as it could.

however, to achieve this i've had to limit the motor speed (in the settings) to about 90% of maximum... if i dont the no load current jumps dramatically (and gets very noisy) at 100%. I'm guessing that its because the controller is approaching 100% pwm and doesn't have any room left to manage the motor, but im not sure (and kind of surprised that the controller doesn't limit to below 100% anyway...)
anyone know if this is the case? or something else?

 

[Wheazel]

The controller should have pwm room left.
49kV times 77V ~ 3800rpm
3800 times 12poles ~45k erpm, adaptto should handle up to 60k erpm.

I got my rv120pro to between 5A and 7A noload at ~70V and 100% throttle. This was with settings that were not 100% tuned, but good enough I think.
(Measured before the final tuning sessions, and didnt measure it afterwards before I swapped to a lower power hubbie)

 

[sn0wchyld]

another small update
first shakedown today! only a few runs up my street, but the maxe and rv100 seem to be working pretty well together!
unfortunatly, my motor mount needs work.... lots of work
as soon as any significant power is applied it twists and the chain goes rather slack. it doesn't twist much, only a few mm or so but its enough to ruin the chain alignment and cause the chain to skip under regen.
ps variable regen is amazing.

had the thing limited so far to about 60A/120pA, acceleration is pretty lax at low speeds (needs more phase amps i guess, lucky this motor has very good cooling!) but improves once your get above 15km or so.

I think ill have to figure out something that keys into the swingarm to stop the motor mount moving...

in the bottom left corner of this pic you can see a large hole (about 12mm dia) going through the swingarm - my first thought is to put a large round bar through that, and a couple of bolts out either side to the motor mount plate to provide better resistance to the pull of the chain... but not sure yet.

 

[sn0wchyld]

So the fix seems to have worked well...

there just happened to be a 18mm dia hole through the swingarm, so i can now key the motor mount into the frame securely. doesn't budge at all now!

which gave me a new issue!
this motor heat soaks depressingly quickly. Good heat disipation, decent power, but a couple of hard launches after punting around and it started smoking!! not sure however if it was something non-critical like the bamboo strips or something more important, it didn't feel that hot, but thats just feeling the outer shell which isn't really thermally linked to the stator. I guess ill have to open it up and put in the thermal probe, that should at least stop me cooking it properly. but 220 phase amps is too much for this little thing

turning the phase amps down helps a lot, but then the torque, particularly low down, becomes rather anemic. Still kind of hoping that its something (else) in the controller settings.

if its any consolation, the old HT3525 and a lyen 12fet at 40A wouldn't be much cooler under similar conditions - i was launching hard in the streets round my house, and i live on a hill so its harder than it would be on the flats. Still a bit disappointing though, i'd been hoping it'd outperform the old setup, where this is more on par (WAY less un-sprung weight though).

oh and yea still not happy with the look of the bike, all the bits are kind of ugly and untidy. will probably just leave as is for a commuter that should atleast be more reliable than the HT always breaking spokes, but going to make a start on my custom frame asap

Also need to replace the chain tentioners, they're really not made to take any load at all, they've both been destroyed. Shouldn't be too hard to do something better though.

Best news to come out of this is that the adaptto doesn't seem to have any issue with high speed motors like this, infact its clearly too much controller for this motor! only at 60A/220Ph and its barely getting above ambient with harsh riding conditions, and though i've added some small heatsinks to the FET side, the 3 other sides are inside a plastic box, so airflow isn't as good as it could be... 120 pro/ 160s is looking appealing now

motor, controller and batteries all in the frame. nice, clean and most of all stealthy.

 

[pendragon8000]

more drama! do you think it would be difficult to install a thermal probe on the stator? I should do it on my BMX.

I like that CAD jpg

I'm suprised you chewed through chain tensioners so quick...?

also, I'v been hella busy trying to study this robotics course. its full on. so yeah I'll get around to that 3d print soon. but i have beer brewing so maby pick it up when beer is on tap next week?

 

[sn0wchyld]

for those who may be interested, ive started a new build thread for the custom frame here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=75782

I've also modified the norko ::

its now using a 68T rear sprocket - much better performance and heat. Low end torque is still a bit lack luster but i think its just an aspect of the Adaptto, and the heat capacity of this little motor.

Also ive done away with the idler - ive managed to move stuff around so its no longer needed. Regen works well now, and no idlers to chew up!!

I'll be making a few more changes to the battery case this week, but most of my efforts now are focused on this :

 

[pendragon8000]

congrats! does that add about 25% to your completion scale in your sig?

Yep, it should. Slow build, this A-Line.
I got one special winding H 3535 motor 2 weeks ago, and put on it some 500 Km already.

yep your right. Ive now bowed to peer pressure. 22% complete I figure, as I still need to machiene the rear dropouts, batt cases break in the batts and then put it all together.

As to it being slow... well... yea. your right. Getting parts together is a pain in the A$$!! With a bit (or a lot) of luck I might even be riding it next week! Given the quantity of delays Ive had so far Im not gonna get my hopes up...

Just taken the motor off to the LBS to get it laced, he said he'd prob have to order the spokes in, so that means early next week sometime...

fortunately though it looks like he might have been bitten by the ebug. The shop he runs does sell ebikes, that are limited to a 'nearly legal' 250w (motor runs through the front cranks). He never gave ebikes much credit though untill some old fella was test riding one with him on a ~24% grade near the shop. The old fella got to the top of the hill easily while the LBS owner was left sweating like a pig by the end... now he wants to convert a bike or scooter! Good to have a LBS who's at least interested/on the same page with what im doing.

I had a quick ride on the 250w bike too, it was my first ever ebike ride and I gotta say, while 250w wasnt gonna break any land speed records but it was still notable. given that, the 2+kw im planning should be a BLAST!

thats cool wich bike shop is it?

 

[sn0wchyld]

..................
Yep, it should. Slow build, this A-Line.
I got one special winding H 3535 motor 2 weeks ago, and put on it some 500 Km already.

yep your right. Ive now bowed to peer pressure. 22% complete I figure, as I still need to machiene the rear dropouts, batt cases break in the batts and then put it all together.

As to it being slow... well... yea. your right. Getting parts together is a pain in the A$$!! With a bit (or a lot) of luck I might even be riding it next week! Given the quantity of delays Ive had so far Im not gonna get my hopes up...

Just taken the motor off to the LBS to get it laced, he said he'd prob have to order the spokes in, so that means early next week sometime...

fortunately though it looks like he might have been bitten by the ebug. The shop he runs does sell ebikes, that are limited to a 'nearly legal' 250w (motor runs through the front cranks). He never gave ebikes much credit though untill some old fella was test riding one with him on a ~24% grade near the shop. The old fella got to the top of the hill easily while the LBS owner was left sweating like a pig by the end... now he wants to convert a bike or scooter! Good to have a LBS who's at least interested/on the same page with what im doing.

I had a quick ride on the 250w bike too, it was my first ever ebike ride and I gotta say, while 250w wasnt gonna break any land speed records but it was still notable. given that, the 2+kw im planning should be a BLAST!

thats cool wich bike shop is it?

mitcham cycles, unley road just near cross road. top blokes in there. Just had my brakes re-done as the hydraulic tube was too short given my extended dropouts.
https://www.facebook.com/MitchamCycleCentre/

 

[sn0wchyld]

bit of an update on this one...
I've rebuilt the battery case, the weight on the front was making the bike feel strange now that there's no 8kg hub balancing it out... its now all frame mounted. looks a bit naff but the lower more central COG makes the bike ride much better.

Also changed to a 68T rear sprocket, and moved it slightly closer to the wheel so that it clears the brake rotor/calipers. As a added bonus the chain line now fits well without a need for a tensioner! Braking works well now, no more destroyed idlers.

Pedal chainline is still crap, but i cant think of any way to make it work better sadly without significant work. I'm thinking it might be worth replacing the lower swing arm with a custom built piece, as its only ever under tension/compression or tortion, and it'd be pretty easy by the looks to have the motor situated so the axle is inline with where the swingarm is now, solving the pedal chainline issues and housing the motor in a nicer way.

As is though the bike's working quite well, the adaptto still doesn't put out enough low end torque for my liking with this setup, but anything over about 10km'h it pulls like a mule. Motor holds up well under abuse too, particularly if you keep the rpms up, and it cools down fast being so open. rode up a gentle sloping road tonight, pulling 2-3kw pretty consistently for about 5 min, and the motor body was only at about 40C (~23C ambient). Dont know the winding as ive only got the temp probe mounted to the body, but the heat path isn't bad, and i couldn't feel any major heat coming off the winding. The motor didn't want to come apart easily and I couldn't really be stuffed putting in the effort to really pull it apart (would need to make a plate to mount a puller too) so i gave up and just mounted it on the ally plate that holds the motor, which seems to heat up pretty well in line with the windings (gets hotter than the sideplates/magnet backing ring) and doesn't get much hotter once I stop so the heat path doesn't seem too bad... It'd be good to know the instantaneous winding temp though so I could push more current into it and really make it pull!

Currently pulling peaks of 6kw, so the max-e isn't even breaking a sweat. Whole setup is fairly quiet too now, other than some harmonics that kick in around 25km'h. above that the tire noise is significantly louder.

few pics:

 

[Wheazel]

Looks nice, how are the motortemps and overall motor performance. Whats the ratio now? 26" wheel?

 

[adam333]

I will probably just leave as is for a commuter that should at least be more reliable than the HT always breaking spokes

Nice work Sn0wchyld,

I was always randomly breaking 12GA spoke on my SH3540 set up also...

I will try 10GA spoke on a moped wheel next spring to see if It will fix the issue.

old wheel front, new wheel rear:

 

[sn0wchyld]

I will probably just leave as is for a commuter that should atleast be more reliable than the HT always breaking spokes

Nice work Sn0wchyld,

I was always randomly breaking 12GA spoke on my SH3540 set up also...

I will try 10GA spoke on a moped wheel next spring to see if It will fix the issue.

old wheel front, new wheel rear:

yea for me spokes were only part of the issue - the performance of this one offroad is worlds different!

Looks nice, how are the motortemps and overall motor performance. Whats the ratio now? 26" wheel?

cant say exactly as the temp probe isn't on the wingdings, but generally it warms up easily but doesn't seem to overheat that much, given it dissipates heat so well. I've yet to get the magnet ring hot enough that i cant keep my hand on it, though im sure i could get it there if i really thrashed it. Torque low down is still lackluster, though i think thats as much the controller as anything, but otherwise im pretty happy. the 3kw rating seems reasonable so long as you keep the rpms up. I think this motor would be great if it had a 2speed, or ran via the derailer (granted it probably wouldn't handle the power that well though). Its very happy above about 15-20km'h but needs a granny gear for lower speed stuff. ultimately i think the RV120 std/pro version would have been a better choice for me, other than the size. Thinking of trying a 160s now though

 

[redline2097]

I am building trial/mx bike to my son's 16" Oset frame with rv120 pro. Is this controller enough to move bike+kid 42kg weight: http://kellycontroller.com/kbs72181e110a24-72v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-1315.html

What about chain, I am planning to use 420 mx chains and pocket. What are you using and how they last?

 

[sn0wchyld]

I am building trial/mx bike to my son's 16" Oset frame with rv120 pro. Is this controller enough to move bike+kid 42kg weight: http://kellycontroller.com/kbs72181e110a24-72v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-1315.html

What about chain, I am planning to use 420 mx chains and pocket. What are you using and how they last?

ive never used a kelly, but i've heard good things
you might want something a bit bigger though, 100A cont. phase amps isn't much. Plenty for a kid but for a bit extra you'll be able to future proof it. That controller would probably go well with a rv100pro, and a 100pro would suit a little kid well (well, i recon too much for a little guy but you know him better than i do ) and gear it to about 40-50km'h. that's enough for me to have some fun, and I weigh more than double your kid AND bike, just on my own. me and my bike is about 3x your kid and his.

 

[redline2097]

How much continuous phase amps we are talking about to access full potential of rv120 pro? I would like to make it futureproof. I will move it later to bigger frame.

Isn't 260a (10 seconds) phase amps enough? You do not drive very long straights on mx tracks. It's very much on off throttle and fast accelerations to speeds about 40-45kmh. I will gear it to achieve 60kmh with 60volts. But I reduce voltage first and when my kid grows I add more volts. 14t front and 42t back with 420 mx chain.

Edit: I think you can say little guy for three years old

 

[sn0wchyld]

Small update, no pics yet sorry...
put on a 81T sprocket, as the motor was just a bit too warm for my liking, and geared to speeds that i almost never need, without field weakening either. New top speed (no FW) is about 50km'h, and its FAR more peppy. front gets very light/lifts wheel even with the extended wheelbase and the adaptto limiting the current all the time. I think if i had an infineon it'd be verging on scary when first hitting the throttle, given they dont limit current that first second.
Also built a neat little chain tensioner since the chain was hitting the frame, and other than destroying 2 endmills due to my own impatience its working quite well. Took the wheels of a kids skateboard i found for $10 at kmart and milled 'em down to the hard core plastic, very slick stuff that'd probably work ok even if it was just a slider rather than a rotating tensioner.
20% more torque is quite noticealbe hah
30% less heat for a given load should help too.

How much continuous phase amps we are talking about to access full potential of rv120 pro? I would like to make it futureproof. I will move it later to bigger frame.

Isn't 260a (10 seconds) phase amps enough? You do not drive very long straights on mx tracks. It's very much on off throttle and fast accelerations to speeds about 40-45kmh. I will gear it to achieve 60kmh with 60volts. But I reduce voltage first and when my kid grows I add more volts. 14t front and 42t back with 420 mx chain.

Edit: I think you can say little guy for three years old

for that you'd have to contact alexey at revolt, im not sure myself. ive got the 100pro at about 230A phase atm, it does get a bit warm but i think the adaptto isn't as well tuned as i thought earlier. my guess is the 120pro will handle 300+a peaks for short periods, so you'll want something up in that range if u want to future proof it.
the 100pro with 230phase is good, but not enough for me. much better geared now to 50km'h, but still not enough. For a small kid it'll be heaps though, he'd be far lighter than me.

 

[sn0wchyld]

been having a few people contact me re tuning the adaptto to non-hub motors, so here's how i went about it:

firstly make sure OVS is set to 0, as it can throw of initial tuning

run atodetect

if the motor after its initial clunking around to get the hall sequence and phase R doesn't spin up relatively fast/draws more than no load should really be, stop and start the auto again (this happened to me, basically it got itself into a false positive hall/phase combo and was trying to tune itself based on that - lots of heat for motor and controller!)

tune the throttle

once the auto's got some semblance of the right settings, time to start on the manual tuning

for me, i used the eco power setting to keep phase/bat currents low (makes it easy to maintain certain no load speeds) in combo with the speed limit, so set these pretty low, maybe 5A battery and 25A phase, no speed limit, no acc limit
check you've got it right on p23 of http://adaptto.com/MANUALS/Mini-Max-User-Manual-ENG.pdf

go to advanced settings and put ang correction and ind timing to 0
spin the motor up at low to mid speeds (just enough so it spins @ 5-25% of max rpm)
move the ang cor a few points (+-, doesn't matter at this point)
spin up slowly again
repeat till it sounds as quiet as possible at 5-15% max rpm - should mean your ang correction is close to correct.
if your not sure, change it from your current point by a good 5-10deg or more, it should sound progressively worse going up or down from the 'right' point, right to the point where it doesn't spin at all. you've got phase amps set nice and low so it shouldn't cook anything, so play away.

once ang corr is roughly right, rev the motor slowly up to max no load, at some point it'll start getting loud with a low pitch rumble, a sign that the phase angle is less than needed - time to start increasing ind timing
keep spinning it up, increasing ind timing by 50-100 each time until the motor eventually 'runs away' - basically hits a certain rpm and then accelerates suddenly - this is a sign that the phase angle is increasing too quickly, ie ind timing is too high. roll ind timing back to about 80% of this value (so if you get the 'runaway' situation at 200nS, then roll it back to about 160ish)

Now add in some ovs, change it to 1 or 2, and repeat the ind timing. you'll probably find you'll have to roll it back another 10% or so if its anything like my rv100pro. at no point should the motor enter the 'runaway' point. this point is effectively just extending the rpm range over which ind timing is being tested (though rather crudely), so if it gives massively different numbers to the last step, then dont worry about this point, as the motor may be ill suited to field weakening (essentially what OVS is).

the motor should be roghly tuned now, as well as i coudl get without hooking up to a oscilloscope anyway (which i still havent done).

pwr timing and stuff arn't direcly related to the tuning of the motor and controller's hall angles, so ill leave it at that. might copy this to my build thread...

 

[sn0wchyld]

Just thought I'd ressurect this ancient thread having come back to it after so long, probably few (none?) will read this given the traffic here these days but still ... funny to look back where I came from more than a decade ago now.

Now working as a elec propulsion engineer, so i have at least kept going in the same direction as early on...

-still got the old norko - she's got a modified bbshd. rarely gets used, was a commuter while I was in france for work
-Still got the d8... just a frame in the shed now. Maybe one day I'll do something with it
-Still got the old trampa emountainboard... thats in bits too atm
-Got a 2nd hand stealth fighter a while back, stuck a MX3k on it with the old addapto. Was good fun till I took it to france and the shippers broke it! might try to repair one day...
-got a propel mountainboard. Doesn't see as much use as I'd like, need to get some foot pegs as it turns like a pig. handles bumps nice though.
-also got a surron, now running a eBMX battery and a nuck 24f... good fun when I manage to keep it rubber side down.
-and a boxxbike valkyrie, bought it while I was in europe. Things a beast. First bike I've ever owned that I didn't feel the need to baby it to either A, stop it breaking, or B, stop it overheating. Managed to overheat it once, but that was riding like a nutter on a 35C day, just lowered the power for a while.

oh how far bikes have come since the hey days of broke uni students taping the cheapest available batteries on to their bikes! Still got dreams of doing a custom frame but im more time poor now than ever, though at least with a bigger budget these days, hence the higher # of pre made toys.

to anyone who does read this... cheers for coming along on the journey, such as its been. Its been fun.


edit
sorry that all sounded way more depressing than i intended... im not dead or dieing or anything :lol: .
Keep it rubber side down and fingers unfried lads plenty more trails to be found.

 

[A-DamW]

Just thought I'd ressurect this ancient thread having come back to it after so long, probably few (none?) will read this given the traffic here these days but still ... funny to look back where I came from more than a decade ago now.

N
edit
sorry that all sounded way more depressing than i intended... im not dead or dieing or anything :lol: .
Keep it rubber side down and fingers unfried lads plenty more trails to be found.

I think this totally appropriate.
This is life, life on a sphere, endless sphere

 

[Turbocake]

Just thought I'd ressurect this ancient thread having come back to it after so long, probably few (none?) will read this given the traffic here these days but still ... funny to look back where I came from more than a decade ago now.

Now working as a elec propulsion engineer, so i have at least kept going in the same direction as early on...

-still got the old norko - she's got a modified bbshd. rarely gets used, was a commuter while I was in france for work
-Still got the d8... just a frame in the shed now. Maybe one day I'll do something with it
-Still got the old trampa emountainboard... thats in bits too atm
-Got a 2nd hand stealth fighter a while back, stuck a MX3k on it with the old addapto. Was good fun till I took it to france and the shippers broke it! might try to repair one day...
-got a propel mountainboard. Doesn't see as much use as I'd like, need to get some foot pegs as it turns like a pig. handles bumps nice though.
-also got a surron, now running a eBMX battery and a nuck 24f... good fun when I manage to keep it rubber side down.
-and a boxxbike valkyrie, bought it while I was in europe. Things a beast. First bike I've ever owned that I didn't feel the need to baby it to either A, stop it breaking, or B, stop it overheating. Managed to overheat it once, but that was riding like a nutter on a 35C day, just lowered the power for a while.

oh how far bikes have come since the hey days of broke uni students taping the cheapest available batteries on to their bikes! Still got dreams of doing a custom frame but im more time poor now than ever, though at least with a bigger budget these days, hence the higher # of pre made toys.

to anyone who does read this... cheers for coming along on the journey, such as its been. Its been fun.
View attachment 330057

edit
sorry that all sounded way more depressing than i intended... im not dead or dieing or anything :lol: .
Keep it rubber side down and fingers unfried lads plenty more trails to be found.

How do you like your boxxbike?? I’m still trying really hard to save money for one. I love that bike because SurRons became so overrun by kids in my area that cops now seek them out to impound them. I’m in California. Whereabouts are you located? Thank you

 

[spamseonameremoved85]

What you have to understand is that you want to use the maximum travel that you can without risk of bottoming the suspension. The weight of the hub complicates the setting, in the sense that an insufficient shock will work better with a heavy rider because it helps the damping, so setting your seat to the rear helps alot.

 

[DogDipstick]

to anyone who does read this... cheers for coming along on the journey, such as its been. Its been fun.

No, yeah, thank you for all the contribution.