Re: HT Norko Aline - version mid drive, adaptto+rv100pro

[pendragon8000]

Noooo. A lot of unknown at this time hey? Seems odd considering your level of understanding and experience.
So you pliged in the new pack and BANG?
Well if your hands and bike are OK a ride and drink would be awesome.

Just wondering can you wash off the char or is that your flesh that is actually char?

New pack looks frocking mental
We need to reprogram your controller to.

 

[sn0wchyld]

Noooo. A lot of unknown at this time hey? Seems odd considering your level of understanding and experience.
So you pliged in the new pack and BANG?
Well if your hands and bike are OK a ride and drink would be awesome.

Just wondering can you wash off the char or is that your flesh that is actually char?

New pack looks frocking mental
We need to reprogram your controller to.

Well i figured out the problem. The guy that made this pack is a moron, he accidentally made one of the leads as to reverse the polarity to the controller... Seems no matter how many times i tell him to not make ebike parts when badly sleep deprived, the frocker ends up doing it anyway... Im gonna have to fire his ass i think.

Early signs insicate the controller may have actually survived, after opening it up and seeng everything looking as good as new, and testing the major components i could... I hooked it back up to a battery, though this time with a hair wire as a fuse. Other than the usual initial spark all seems normal. ill check to see if the voltage regs are still working, then try hooking it up to the motor again... The controller was only hooked up for a moment (just the flash of plasma) so i might be lucky...

 

[pendragon8000]

Awesome. Keep us updated. Yeah sleepy is bad.
Sounds like the electronic path shorted outside the controller.

 

[sn0wchyld]

Awesome. Keep us updated. Yeah sleepy is bad.
Sounds like the electronic path shorted outside the controller.

nah the rest of the wiring looks fine, the only path I can find is via the controller. voltages seem to checkout ok, just gotta check the fets and then ill hook it up and see what happens

.

thought I'd post what remains of the two bullets I used for my pre charge resitor setup. Basically I had a wire permanently connecting these two bullets together via a ~300ohm resistor. These two bullets were left OC when connecting up the battery, and then connected to short out the pre charge resistor after a few seconds. The plasma melted through the small wire connecting the resistors, and melted a good % of the two bullets. The housing that I had on just one of them was partially melted too, but I ripped that off to see what was left of the bullet inside. There was a small blob of gold and copper left on top, but that flew off somewhere in my workshop when I was cutting off the remains of the housing... put a couple of fresh bullets there so you can see how much was vaporized !



Hands seem to be doing fine. just the ends of my index and thumb are a little tender, the rest still looks a tad pink but isn't painful at all anymore nor as sensitive to warmth as it was last night, where if I let it reach body temp. the pain went from about 1/10 to about 5/10. Dunking it in a bucket of cool water from time to time did the trick.

 

[sn0wchyld]

PRAISE BE TO JEBUS!

looks like im in luck. Only a no load + pulling on the brakes load test so far, but everything seems to work fine. found out though my hub's axle must be bent as shit, my rim is out of true (which i knew about) but looks like most of that is because the hub is out of true!! bloody crystalite swiss cheese axles... makes me glad I've got such overblown torque arms, I at least know (short of it snapping completely ) that it aint going anywhere.

So we're back on this weekend pend'. I'll have to fix the new battery's wiring, but that'll only take about 20min or so, should get it done tonight. Will then have to re-attach everything to the bike, which might take some time given its a bloody hornet's nest of wires... Might rebuild the precharge section of my wires too so they're easy to yank out the power to the controller if something major goes wrong.

 

[pendragon8000]

PRAISE BE TO JEBUS!

looks like im in luck. Only a no load + pulling on the brakes load test so far, but everything seems to work fine. found out though my hub's axle must be bent as shit, my rim is out of true (which i knew about) but looks like most of that is because the hub is out of true!! bloody crystalite swiss cheese axles... makes me glad I've got such overblown torque arms, I at least know (short of it snapping completely ) that it aint going anywhere.

So we're back on this weekend pend'. I'll have to fix the new battery's wiring, but that'll only take about 20min or so, should get it done tonight. Will then have to re-attach everything to the bike, which might take some time given its a bloody hornet's nest of wires... Might rebuild the precharge section of my wires too so they're easy to yank out the power to the controller if something major goes wrong.

glory glory hallelujah. im so keen to see the new pack in the flesh. im glad your ok(ish) and yeah the precharge resistor. well i like using an led to show when its charging and finished charging with a mom switch on the conector plug, thats just me. the light is cool though, visual indicator of the capacitors takeing e-
im free all weekend so hit me up.
WOOP!

 

[sn0wchyld]

PRAISE BE TO JEBUS!

looks like im in luck. Only a no load + pulling on the brakes load test so far, but everything seems to work fine. found out though my hub's axle must be bent as shit, my rim is out of true (which i knew about) but looks like most of that is because the hub is out of true!! bloody crystalite swiss cheese axles... makes me glad I've got such overblown torque arms, I at least know (short of it snapping completely ) that it aint going anywhere.

So we're back on this weekend pend'. I'll have to fix the new battery's wiring, but that'll only take about 20min or so, should get it done tonight. Will then have to re-attach everything to the bike, which might take some time given its a bloody hornet's nest of wires... Might rebuild the precharge section of my wires too so they're easy to yank out the power to the controller if something major goes wrong.

glory glory hallelujah. im so keen to see the new pack in the flesh. im glad your ok(ish) and yeah the precharge resistor. well i like using an led to show when its charging and finished charging with a mom switch on the conector plug, thats just me. the light is cool though, visual indicator of the capacitors takeing e-
im free all weekend so hit me up.
WOOP!

yea saturdays gonna be the day I think. gonna go for a quick cruise tomorrow to make sure the new pack's all peachy and playing nicely.

Bikes all back together (gotta love a couple beers and cranking some old school rock for getting work done), and looking even more stealth than before if you ask me. No more tape, wires are all nice and tidy, controller painted black. Now has a much better pre-charge setup (no light, sorry pen! ) but lower resistance so should only take about 3 seconds, down from the 10+ish it was before, and no more loose connections so it should pre charge every time, no sparks. Also made the shorting connector into a grab loop too in case the controller changes its mind, decides it has been killed by my antics and starts spitting sparks (though there's a 60A fuse too, so should be safe either way). I'd still have to pull the main plug otherwise the pack will be discharging though my 2 5w resistors, at about 66w, so they'll get warm quick... but should atleast give me a bit more time.
will post some pics tomorrow.

Hands feeling pretty much 100%, other than a still slightly numb index finger. kinda feels like I've got some electrical tape or similar stuck on it, weird sensation.

 

[pendragon8000]

Nice one. That all sounds very good. I'm wondering if you capacity checked the cells yet?
I use 100 ohm for precharge as well. Seems about right amount, charges in 3 seconds or less.
I'm looking forward to seeing it all tidyed up.

 

[sn0wchyld]

yea mate, cells were capacity checked, but it was about 6months ago. they've sat in storage since, and all still nicely balanced, but yea I was just a bit weary of going on a long ride without atleast one shakedown prior to it. Was a killer ride though. frock I was hungover on sunday though, least till I went down for my usual hangover cure - hungry jacks and an ice coffee. how'd you pull up?

So it looks as if my controller is a-ok after being hooked up to -100V. No heat issues or anything out of the ordinary. Gave me a good oppertunity to clean up the wiring on the bike too, since I had to rip most of it off to get the controller off - most was also burried under all that tape. I rebuilt the pre-charge setup too, using larger resistors, but only 150ohms. Seems to work great, no sparks at all. Here are some pics of the new setup. Hopefully the last time I rebuild this thing before my custom frame mid drive I'm working on....




the new pack with its lid on.

new precharge setup. The loop you can see is unplugged before connecting the battery via the normal bullet connectors, and then reconnected after a few seconds to short out the two resistors inside the shrink tube.
View attachment 2
Same old controller in a new black dress.

New wiring between the bars and the controller.

My hand's healing up fine. Just the one little blister. Looks worse than it feels, just a bit clumped up because of where it is. Every time I grip something tightly it opens back up. Very slight peeling up the outside of my thumb, and I no longer have a full fingerprint on my index finger. Guess its time I joined MIB eh?

 

[pendragon8000]

nice pics man. shes looking prety sweet now.

. frock I was hungover on sunday though, least till I went down for my usual hangover cure - hungry jacks and an ice coffee. how'd you pull up?

I had jug of tea and vegemite on toast. was feeling more mentaly sketchy than physicaly off/ill ... some midle aged lesbian hipy chick I met at womad called it "hebie geebies" .. kinda sucks but yeah ride then beer and I was back in the game

your ride home after midnight must have been quite peacefull

 

[sn0wchyld]

K so i had enough of breaking spokes and riding with a boat anchor in my rear wheel... and so i've changed the norko again heheh.

Revolt RV100pro with a Max-E. Assuming i can get them to run nicely together it should be a blast. Still a work in progress but here's some pics



Motor mount is 2 plates, in order to save space the motor's protruding bearing race is press fit into the hole you can see in the 'rear' plate above, and the torque is managed by the 3mm plate bolted to the front. The wires run in the little tracks cut from the rear plate.





Inspired by boisrondevens I extended the dropouts by about 60mm (cnc'd some extenders out of 20mm plate) and used the original bolt on dropouts since that was easier than making completely new ones.


The chain line has to be moved to allow for the motor. Perhaps I should have gone for the smaller one, which is thin enough that this wouldn't be nessasary, but i dont think 2.5kw is gonna cut it any more


using 219 cart chain, I can get a 11/60 reduction (5.5:1) and still squeeze the sprocket under the calipers.

 

[sn0wchyld]

for those that might be interested too i'm currently working on programming a rather interesting controller for a MX5 electric car conversion... its an infinion Hybridkit. Amazing power density. Its about the size of a 6 pack of beer (maybe a tad smaller) but has a continuous power rating of 50kw (water cooled). Half the volume is taken up by the DC link cap - and about 1/3rd of whats left is the cooling system. The actual power electronics and control hardware is slightly smaller than a lyen 12fet. Fully programable, also lets you connect to it with a PC and see the calculated #'s live, including feedback from the motor and sensors (in our case a resolver) that can be viewed on a oscilloscope within the software. I think I need about 12-18 extra months on this project to really get my head around all there is to learn. Steep learning curve but great fun.

Motor is pulled form a toyota puris. Batteries are some old, old thundersags. Did some testing on them earlier in the year and it looks like they'll struggle to put out much more than about 10kw continuous, if that (its a ~9kwh pack, so thats kinda sad!) so wont be able to utilize the controllers potential - and not enough time or budget to get new cells.

If anyone's interested i'll post more info.

 

[Samd]

Definitely interested!

 

[Drunkskunk]

Yep, Me too. A Car may be my next big project. and an MX5 too!

 

[kiwiev]

for those that might be interested too i'm currently working on programming a rather interesting controller for a MX5 electric car conversion... its an infinion Hybridkit. Amazing power density. Its about the size of a 6 pack of beer (maybe a tad smaller) but has a conhttps://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69603tinuous power rating of 50kw (water cooled). Half the volume is taken up by the DC link cap - and about 1/3rd of whats left is the cooling system. The actual power electronics and control hardware is slightly smaller than a lyen 12fet. Fully programable, also lets you connect to it with a PC and see the calculated #'s live, including feedback from the motor and sensors (in our case a resolver) that can be viewed on a oscilloscope within the software. I think I need about 12-18 extra months on this project to really get my head around all there is to learn. Steep learning curve but great fun.

Motor is pulled form a toyota puris. Batteries are some old, old thundersags. Did some testing on them earlier in the year and it looks like they'll struggle to put out much more than about 10kw continuous, if that (its a ~9kwh pack, so thats kinda sad!) so wont be able to utilize the controllers potential - and not enough time or budget to get new cells.

If anyone's interested i'll post more info.

Would love to see more

See my thread

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69603

Cheers

 

[sn0wchyld]

Ha i forgot to mention that its for my final year project in my EE degree. Pretty stoked to be working on it but means i've only got limited time - about 6-7 weeks from now!

I'll be writing up some stuff on it this weekend for part of my report, so ill post some of that info once i've got it consolidated somewhat.

as you can see, crazy small for the power, thought this isn't including the radiator for cooling heheh...

 

[kiwiev]

Hey Snow who or where did you get the rear ring gear and adapter for your drive and does it bolt into your disc brake mount.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[sn0wchyld]

Hey Snow who or where did you get the rear ring gear and adapter for your drive and does it bolt into your disc brake mount.

Cheers Kiwi

i got it 'from myself' heheh - I have a CNC router and can use the lathes at my uni (though will soon have a lathe of my own ) edit - link to a pic of the router, though it has a nicer enclosure now... (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=57489#p857483 )
it uses a centerlock style rotor... i cut off the bolts holding the disk on, then made the aluminium part you can see to both hold the disk and provide a mounting point for the sprocket... I had other designs that had a dog clutch too, but that was getting too hard to achieve in the space I had...

the small 6 arm piece in the foreground is the 'cut off' part of the centerlock rotor. the disk in the background is a place holder 'disk' - i actually used the disk from the original centerlock rotor.




Separately, im having a absolute bitch of a time getting the pedal chain line working right... the 100pro is just a bit too long. Kinda wish I'd gone with the smaller, standard rv100, it'd fit far, far easier, even though the lower power ratings may have left me wanting. Other than final assembaly and some painting the rest of this build is pretty much done, but unless I can fab up some way to reinforce the current 'arm' that moves the chain around the motor its just gonna bend and break. I might be able to fit a small plate to it running down to a bearing on the BB axle to offer some more support, but im not sure that'll be enough!
Still, I got a birthday comming up, so its the perfect excuse to have a day working on the bike and ignoring my other duties heheh! with a lot of luck I might be able to get it rolling.

 

[pendragon8000]

did you work out the chain tensioner issue? i cant see how that was a problem, maby i missed something. thats cool how you got the disc and gear to fit on the motor drive side. my bmx dual drive is too tight. im looking foward to working on that, but i was having the same chain line issues as you i think. precious millimeters!

 

[sn0wchyld]

did you work out the chain tensioner issue? i cant see how that was a problem, maby i missed something. thats cool how you got the disc and gear to fit on the motor drive side. my bmx dual drive is too tight. im looking foward to working on that, but i was having the same chain line issues as you i think. precious millimeters!

yea... such things can be easy when you have a cnc router

I went out and got a fatbike BB, will be using that instead of the much weaker square taper one. The threads are just long enough to allow for good engagement on the bikes BB while also supporting the fatbike pedals.

Chain tentioner was crap - it was too thin and any weight made it bend, so i machiened a new one form 12mm plate. Also serves as a spacer for the BB...


given this was done from a photo of the bike imported to the CAD program i'm pretty stoked how well it worked. the hole spacing was almost perfect (the 3 bolt holes were perfect - but the BB hole was off by just a tad, so given the BB takes the radial load, and the bolts take the torque load, i made the bolt holes bigger so that the BB would still take the axial load.
photo doesn't show it but it also 'wraps' perfectly round the shock's swingarm axle.

 

[kiwiev]

nice work snow

Need some Video of it running mate 8)

What do you think you max Kw will be?

Cheers Kiwi

 

[Wheazel]

Dang! Nice build, didnt see the revolt change until now. Have you gotten adaptto and revolt to play together?
I dont know if my experiences with revolt 120pro and maxE is of any help, but feel free to check it out. (Mainly thinking about tuning parameters)

Top of page 4 is the parameter post about my revolt 120pro.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70500

 

[sn0wchyld]

nice work snow

Need some Video of it running mate 8)

What do you think you max Kw will be?

Cheers Kiwi

I'll happily post some once i actually finish the damn thing heh, uni is taking up too much of my time atm. That and i realised after the battery pack was about 80% done that i dont have to use the BMS modules in sequence, since each can be re-programmed to a different 'order', so i had to pull part of the pack apart so that im not having battery wires going everywhere.
max will be around 8kw (100A at 80V) so should be a beast

Dang! Nice build, didnt see the revolt change until now. Have you gotten adaptto and revolt to play together?
I dont know if my experiences with revolt 120pro and maxE is of any help, but feel free to check it out. (Mainly thinking about tuning parameters)

Top of page 4 is the parameter post about my revolt 120pro.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70500

Not yet... still finishing off some of the wiring. I've got a 2 week uni break coming up so should have a little more time to finish it off then.
im also going to use my old ht3525 as a load too, so should be able to tune it really accurately given ill be able to have a consistent repeatable load.... and yea I'll be using your work as a starting point too

edit
and for those of you curious about the mx5 project, ill get some stuff up soon - just like the bike i haven't had much spare time lately!

 

[sn0wchyld]

small update -
bike's FINALLY spinning the motor! only no-load so far, and looks like the adaptto is going to need a fair bit of tuning, but it at least works. Looks ugly as a pig right now though, wires still going everywhere. I've aslo had to go with a split pack to get all the cells on this frame, i think i'll change it to try and get more cells on the frame once i've had a few cycles on these packs and know there's no duds after they've sat on the bench for a few months. quick and dirty for now though...

interestingly ive currently got the no load amps down <4A at WOT, a bit less than the rated 4-4.5A. still sounds a bit rough though so might still be improvements to be had yet, I've only played with the offset ang so far.

I had to do the autodetect about 4 times before it even worked at all - first 3 times it just lost sync and pumped massive heat into the motor (wasn't hot... but defiantly very warm, phase wires too!). 4th time it worked ok, but ive changed the ang offset from -4 to about +5 and its spinning atleast 2x as fast, and less amps too.

BMS is also working properly now. given the split pack i've got 2 of the cut off boards with the smaller pack on the frame, and the other 4 (the ''base' board) in with the other pack on the handlebars. it was a pretty simple matter to reconfig though so that the 2 i've cut off are now packs '1' and '2', and the 3 on the bars are now '4,5,6' rather than the default '1,2,3'. this adaptto is a great bit of kit so far... it'll be interesting though to see how it manages this small, low R/L high kv motor...

im planning on using the old ht35 as a dummy load - it should bolt easily onto the bike, making a adapter to the current sproket mount shouldn't be too hard, and then i can hook the phase wires up to a dummy load (ie resistor bank) to get a consistent load to tune the controller against. ill probably aim around the 500-1kw mark, depending on how quick things heat up while sitting still (and not being tuned yet).
Depending on how things go i might try and spin the motor up with a different motor, and seeing how the output of the controller matches up with the back EMF of the motor (ie with the phase wires disconnected) to see if that can help me dial in the offsets even better. nice trick i learned from uni, but needs a oscilloscope and 2nd motor+controller to work .

 

[litespeed]

Looking forward to how this turns out.

Excellent ideas!

Tom