Drunkskunk
100 GW
Nope. My bad. I ment Ebikes.ca. Product # M3540R24 from this page: http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_motors.php
Its a bigger motor than the others recomended here.
Its a bigger motor than the others recomended here.
Recommend a more reliable commute setup than this?
- Thread starter cdevidal
- Start date
If you're looking for something similar to the cyclone kit but more reliable, you might consider a R Martin R10 http://www.electricbikedistributor.com/R10_electric_bicycle.html complete bike for $1299 I've gone over 22 miles on light assist without stressing the 36v 10ah battery, it should be more than up to your commute, and it tops out around 18-25 mph depending on weight and whether you remove the magnet for the speed sensor.
skaplan said:
Hmmm 250 watts continuous.
I just bought a bike too. Sad story; it had a cheapie gas kit and I only drove it 1000 feet before the clutch flopped. No refund (Craigslist special). But I really like the frame and tires so I wanna build around it. After thinking about it some more, electric may be better so I want to go that direction.
MadRhino
100 GW
Yiou will have to work more to get a chain drive fitted and reliable, and it's gonna be more noizy. A DD hub is simple, silent, reliable, need no shifting, and can regen brake. :wink:
Hillhater
100 TW
cdevidal said:
In that situation , and bearing in mind your load requirements ( 380 -600 lbs) , then Ypedals suggestion is the only sensible one..
..Stokemonkey ! http://clevercycles.com/products/stokemonkey/
.. or having that system installed in your bike.
BUT ..
Drunkskunk
100 GW
Skaplan was making a joke. Or atleast I hope he was. 
Stoke monkys are fine but direct drive is going to be more reliable.
if $$$$$ was no object, then I'd go with the HS3540 motor and spend a bunch building up Sun Doublewide Rims with DTswiss or Sampin spokes with disk brakes. I might even consider having a custom lace with motorcycle spokes. 48V Lithium battery pushing through a 40Amp controller, too.
Stoke monkys are fine but direct drive is going to be more reliable.
if $$$$$ was no object, then I'd go with the HS3540 motor and spend a bunch building up Sun Doublewide Rims with DTswiss or Sampin spokes with disk brakes. I might even consider having a custom lace with motorcycle spokes. 48V Lithium battery pushing through a 40Amp controller, too.
dogman dan
1 PW
Money no object, AND wanting to haul 600 pounds, the stokemonkey for the win. Can you still get the kit from Ebikes-ca? mmm, nope, out of stock.
Ok, back to methods, he's the only US vendor I know of with this slow motor. It's the 2810 winding I was looking at. I like them a lot, and have several. I haven't tried loading 600 pounds on my longtail bike, but it weighs at least 100 by itself, maybe more. It zipps around fine on 48v 15 ah ping.
So on another approach, the 5304 motor is a known beast for hauling weight. But it's only avaliable at ebikes-ca in rear motor. Any real reason you can't do rear? in the hub gears there? That motor would require upgrading to a better battery, which takes you to cellman here, http://www.emissions-free.com/ Where you could get an 11 ah A 123 pack that is real strong. And while you are at it, you might look at his motors, like the Mac torque model. That's the other motor that should be able to get 600 pounds moving away from the light.
All these options pretty much require the motor to be relaced to 24"
As Auraslip said, why overthink it. If your original choice comes in 24" rim just go for that. It will work fine, up to at least 400 pounds of bike. You aren't climbing the rocky mountains like I do. You should get thousands of miles out of one, 2000 is nearly garanteed from those kits, and 4000 is still very often done. I finally ruined my first ping at 7000 miles. Other than stuff like broken connectors, and some chargers that smoked, really pretty reliable once you learn how to troubleshoot for stuff like plugs that came loose.
Ok, back to methods, he's the only US vendor I know of with this slow motor. It's the 2810 winding I was looking at. I like them a lot, and have several. I haven't tried loading 600 pounds on my longtail bike, but it weighs at least 100 by itself, maybe more. It zipps around fine on 48v 15 ah ping.
So on another approach, the 5304 motor is a known beast for hauling weight. But it's only avaliable at ebikes-ca in rear motor. Any real reason you can't do rear? in the hub gears there? That motor would require upgrading to a better battery, which takes you to cellman here, http://www.emissions-free.com/ Where you could get an 11 ah A 123 pack that is real strong. And while you are at it, you might look at his motors, like the Mac torque model. That's the other motor that should be able to get 600 pounds moving away from the light.
All these options pretty much require the motor to be relaced to 24"
As Auraslip said, why overthink it. If your original choice comes in 24" rim just go for that. It will work fine, up to at least 400 pounds of bike. You aren't climbing the rocky mountains like I do. You should get thousands of miles out of one, 2000 is nearly garanteed from those kits, and 4000 is still very often done. I finally ruined my first ping at 7000 miles. Other than stuff like broken connectors, and some chargers that smoked, really pretty reliable once you learn how to troubleshoot for stuff like plugs that came loose.
dogman dan
1 PW
All you need is a roll of pennies and some wire and you got a battery right there.
Drunkskunks advice to look at the HS model motors is good, but grin doesn't sell the slower wind of that motor, HT, Which I would think would work better for hauling weight at 20 mph. But that motor would make a great 30 mph ebike! And it does come in 24".
Grin can lace any of thier motors into 24" for you, so that is a plus.
Skaplan might be serious, but it's seriously funny. Good bikes to take a small weight up a hill maybe, but I would hesitate to load one up. On the weight, I get it, many of my cargo carrying bikes often weigh over 100 pounds with cargo, and I weigh 180, so I regularly am moving 300 pounds. And it works fine with the stock kit and ping. But add the kids in a trailer, and then you slow down into the speed zone below 15 mph, where the motor makes heat out of most of the watts.
Heres the key thing, those slow motors don't start doing that till below 10 mph, so they work better for lugging some weight, or climbing a hill. you are going to slow down, so the slow motor doesn't mind it as much.
Drunkskunks advice to look at the HS model motors is good, but grin doesn't sell the slower wind of that motor, HT, Which I would think would work better for hauling weight at 20 mph. But that motor would make a great 30 mph ebike! And it does come in 24".
Grin can lace any of thier motors into 24" for you, so that is a plus.
Skaplan might be serious, but it's seriously funny. Good bikes to take a small weight up a hill maybe, but I would hesitate to load one up. On the weight, I get it, many of my cargo carrying bikes often weigh over 100 pounds with cargo, and I weigh 180, so I regularly am moving 300 pounds. And it works fine with the stock kit and ping. But add the kids in a trailer, and then you slow down into the speed zone below 15 mph, where the motor makes heat out of most of the watts.
Heres the key thing, those slow motors don't start doing that till below 10 mph, so they work better for lugging some weight, or climbing a hill. you are going to slow down, so the slow motor doesn't mind it as much.
Rockin' forum. Everyone is very helpful. No B.S.
Update: Crap, image is broken. Dunno why. Here it is.
Update: Crap, image is broken. Dunno why. Here it is.
dogman dan
1 PW
Part of the problem is your desire to do much, with one bike and motor. There's a reason I have two commuters, one fast one slow, one slow cargobike longtail, and one really slow dirt trail bike. And just because I'm hooked, I have a fast and lightweight fun bike, and once had a realllly fast racing bike. The point is, your original kit choice is perfect for your commute, even if you weigh 250, or carry 100 pounds.
It's just for hauling the trailer that things get sticky. But it will do it fine for short rides. like 3-4 miles.
It's just for hauling the trailer that things get sticky. But it will do it fine for short rides. like 3-4 miles.
dogman dan
1 PW
Pretty much all out of the budget created by not driving the car so much. But the racing did cost for batteries. More than one motor sent to me freebie for destruction test and reviews. Bikes all bought used and cheap. I'll confess though, to spending more than I should.
LI-ghtcycle
10 MW
cdevidal said:
Ok, no offense to the stoke monkey, but it's really not designed for speed, it's a very well designed cargo bike that can do most or all the work for you, and climb any hill you throw at it with ease, but I seriously doubt it would give you 20 MPH on the flat with everything loaded including the trailer.
If money were truly no object, and you want something to plug n play, I would give the top prize to Eco Speed.
http://www.ecospeed.com/
IMHO, the average person (myself included) building E-Bikes on this forum with high performance RC or other type of mid-drive set-ups are playing catch-up, and trying to achieve what Ecospeed has already nearly perfected.
There is no one else who offers a kit so complete and efficient, and bullet proof reliable.
They are building the Mercedes Benz of E-Bikes, and not the low end stripped down models, but the ones with all the options!
They start at around $3,000 which gives many of us sticker shock, UNTIL we really start being honest with ourselves and look at what we have spent to get what we have, and the features that they have standard, most of us don't even consider adding because of the complication and hassle of figuring out how to do it effectively for ourselves.
There kits have the distinction of carrying a person as cargo up a 20% grade with no pedaling effort at speed!
Yes, a Stoke Monkey can do that, but it will be crawling up that hill by comparison, think of the SM as a all purpose carry anything cargo vehicle, where as the Eco Speed is a high speed exotic racer in reliable commuter trim.
If I had understood what it would take to build some of the things that I am able to do with my current mid-drive, considering the testing, the using of different motors and such (more or less doing my own R & D) I could have simply have saved money and bought one of their kits.
That being said, they do make a bit of noise (most any motor that spins at 3,000 RPM will :wink: ) but the have built into their controller, temperature monitoring and safety from over-heating for the motor & controller, and soon for batteries too.
They don't sell anything "cheap" but considering there is someone here (sylviahalpern, do a search on her name here or on the web to find out about her adventures) who has used her trike as her sole transportation, toured around the USA on a regular basis, and has NEVER suffered any type of mechanical or electrical failure in 7000+ miles, it says a lot for the product.
Most everything is made here in the USA, so no cheap Chinese labor to bring costs down, but you really do get what you pay for. :wink:
NOW ... if you're like many of us here, half the fun is building and designing it your-self, in ways it may not be as appealing especially the up-front cost, you should realize however this is a system that is completely custom built to mount your specific bicycle frame, and when you consider that and all the features included, it's an extremely nice kit.
I'm not going to stop building my own, and I'm not saying it can't be done for cheaper, but, I'd be really hard pressed to think of being able to do what they have done with as much precision, polish and rock solid performance for any less.
Just my $ 0.02
Based on my experiences with CrazyBike2
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500
(which is up to 380lbs or more with me, the bike, and middling cargo loads), you could just about do what you want with a front 9C or equivalent and a 48V20Ah LiFePO4 battery, on a 12FET 40A controller.
You'll need that 40A only for moments at a time, but you'll need it, at startup from stop, to get going with the weight on there.
I'd also recommend 24" vs 26", or maybe even 20", just because you'll get lots more torque out of it with less hardship for the motor at lower speeds, and though you have a lower top speed it doesn't matter--you're only wanting 20MPH. Based on http://ebikes.ca/simulator you could get 21MPH out of a 20" 9C 2807, using a 48V9Ah LiFe and a 40A controller, on a 400lb mountain bike. Assuming no starts and stops (yeah, I know) running at 20MPH you would get about 37Wh/mile out of that, which is a bit worse than what I get out of CrazyBIke2 on my typical heavily-loaded grocery runs, which might give you a 10-11 mile range, pulling something like 16A from the battery.
With a lot of stops and starts you would get less range, because of all the power wasted getting you moving.
Using the Ping or other reputable 48V20Ah (actual 20Ah usable capacity, not just advertised as that) you would have a lot more range. Using RC-LiPo, you'd have much better acceleration than a typical LiFePO4 pack, though a Cell_man A123 LiFePO4 pack would probably do about the same as the RC stuff (not sure which would ahve less voltage sag).
FWIW, if you want to haul the trailer, I'd use a rear motor, not a front, cuz you won't get much traction out of that front wheel, based on my experiences on my more normal DayGLo Avenger bike,
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15570
with various trailer loads and whatnot, up to several hundred pounds of dogs or dog food or junk or whatever.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18671&start=0
Chain-drives, (BB drive, mid-drive, Cyclone, StokeMonkey, etc.) are a lot more efficient/powerful at starting you from a stop/acclerating and climbing hills, as long as you change gears properly for them to do so, or use something like the NuVinci hub developer's kit to automatically do that for you (about $160 or so shipped, IIRC).
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30641
Buuut: chain maintenance, especially if you don't have perfect alignment, can certainly be problematic. It is the main reason why I am running a hubmotor on my current bike, CrazyBike2, when I had developed (after much trial and error) a nice powerchair-motor middrive to run thru the gears. I kept having frame twisting cause chain misalignment and total destruction of chains, sprockets, chainrings, and in one case even my entire rear wheel. In traffic, yanking me to a sudden and complete halt.
That said, chain drive works very well when no alignment problems exist, but the chain will still wear faster than usual, as will the sprockets/chainrings, especially on a heavy bike. I have a new bike in progress that will be chain drive, with a frame designed to prevent the misalignment/twisting problems I had before, but it's not done yet, so can't tell you how successful it might be.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31255
All in all, for reliability, I'd go with the hubmotor, since where you live is as flat as it is here in Phoenix (flatter, actually). As long as you can keep saltwater out of it and the rest of the electronics, it'll work well and for a long time.
I'd also go with http://ebikes.ca, because they've got great customer service, develop neat and good and useful new stuff (like the Cycle Analyst), and their prices are good (the bit more you pay is worth it for the help you'll get if you do have problems down the line). Also because they exist to further the ebike "rEvolution", and not just to stuff money in their pockets. :lol:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500
(which is up to 380lbs or more with me, the bike, and middling cargo loads), you could just about do what you want with a front 9C or equivalent and a 48V20Ah LiFePO4 battery, on a 12FET 40A controller.
You'll need that 40A only for moments at a time, but you'll need it, at startup from stop, to get going with the weight on there.
I'd also recommend 24" vs 26", or maybe even 20", just because you'll get lots more torque out of it with less hardship for the motor at lower speeds, and though you have a lower top speed it doesn't matter--you're only wanting 20MPH. Based on http://ebikes.ca/simulator you could get 21MPH out of a 20" 9C 2807, using a 48V9Ah LiFe and a 40A controller, on a 400lb mountain bike. Assuming no starts and stops (yeah, I know) running at 20MPH you would get about 37Wh/mile out of that, which is a bit worse than what I get out of CrazyBIke2 on my typical heavily-loaded grocery runs, which might give you a 10-11 mile range, pulling something like 16A from the battery.
With a lot of stops and starts you would get less range, because of all the power wasted getting you moving.
Using the Ping or other reputable 48V20Ah (actual 20Ah usable capacity, not just advertised as that) you would have a lot more range. Using RC-LiPo, you'd have much better acceleration than a typical LiFePO4 pack, though a Cell_man A123 LiFePO4 pack would probably do about the same as the RC stuff (not sure which would ahve less voltage sag).
FWIW, if you want to haul the trailer, I'd use a rear motor, not a front, cuz you won't get much traction out of that front wheel, based on my experiences on my more normal DayGLo Avenger bike,
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15570
with various trailer loads and whatnot, up to several hundred pounds of dogs or dog food or junk or whatever.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18671&start=0
Chain-drives, (BB drive, mid-drive, Cyclone, StokeMonkey, etc.) are a lot more efficient/powerful at starting you from a stop/acclerating and climbing hills, as long as you change gears properly for them to do so, or use something like the NuVinci hub developer's kit to automatically do that for you (about $160 or so shipped, IIRC).
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30641
Buuut: chain maintenance, especially if you don't have perfect alignment, can certainly be problematic. It is the main reason why I am running a hubmotor on my current bike, CrazyBike2, when I had developed (after much trial and error) a nice powerchair-motor middrive to run thru the gears. I kept having frame twisting cause chain misalignment and total destruction of chains, sprockets, chainrings, and in one case even my entire rear wheel.
In traffic, yanking me to a sudden and complete halt. That said, chain drive works very well when no alignment problems exist, but the chain will still wear faster than usual, as will the sprockets/chainrings, especially on a heavy bike. I have a new bike in progress that will be chain drive, with a frame designed to prevent the misalignment/twisting problems I had before, but it's not done yet, so can't tell you how successful it might be.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31255
All in all, for reliability, I'd go with the hubmotor, since where you live is as flat as it is here in Phoenix (flatter, actually). As long as you can keep saltwater out of it and the rest of the electronics, it'll work well and for a long time.
I'd also go with http://ebikes.ca, because they've got great customer service, develop neat and good and useful new stuff (like the Cycle Analyst), and their prices are good (the bit more you pay is worth it for the help you'll get if you do have problems down the line). Also because they exist to further the ebike "rEvolution", and not just to stuff money in their pockets. :lol:
John in CR
100 TW
Sell the bike, forget the trailer, and get a cargo bike with a decent hubbie in a 20" rim run at probably 48V. Then you get everything you wanted and more, though hitting the $1k target may be tough.
Another route if your bike is steel, not aluminum, is to stretch it into a cargo bike. World Bike used to have instructions. Then you get plenty of room for your precious cargo, and you could easily mout a raw hubmotor in that newly found space to drive through your 3 speed hub, giving you everything you want and more if you can get that stretch done by a friend for a 6 pack.
Another route if your bike is steel, not aluminum, is to stretch it into a cargo bike. World Bike used to have instructions. Then you get plenty of room for your precious cargo, and you could easily mout a raw hubmotor in that newly found space to drive through your 3 speed hub, giving you everything you want and more if you can get that stretch done by a friend for a 6 pack.
dogman dan
1 PW
Cargo bike is definitely the way to go, perhaps later. Or maybe that's why you have 24" rim in the first place. But for now the commute part is really pretty well within the capability of the stock kits, with 20 amp controllers and 36v.
Smaller rims definitely help with the take off. Those really interested in maximizing thier bikes head for 20" Others like me prefer the big wheel for the ride qualities, and look for the different motors to get better slow speed performance. You can make an ebike very powerful, but then the throttle gets harder to controll at slower speeds. This is part of why I fell in love with the slower speed motors. On my cargo bike, 20 mph is plenty fast for me and I like the better throttle controll when I am in places where I want to ride 5 mph.
Of all my bikes, the most reliable and efficient ones are using the same motor in Methods wife kits and 48v battery. Going so slow they are efficient, and they make less heat which increases their reliability. That's why I have one on my heaviest weight bike.
Smaller rims definitely help with the take off. Those really interested in maximizing thier bikes head for 20" Others like me prefer the big wheel for the ride qualities, and look for the different motors to get better slow speed performance. You can make an ebike very powerful, but then the throttle gets harder to controll at slower speeds. This is part of why I fell in love with the slower speed motors. On my cargo bike, 20 mph is plenty fast for me and I like the better throttle controll when I am in places where I want to ride 5 mph.
Of all my bikes, the most reliable and efficient ones are using the same motor in Methods wife kits and 48v battery. Going so slow they are efficient, and they make less heat which increases their reliability. That's why I have one on my heaviest weight bike.
Drunkskunk said:Skaplan was making a joke. Or atleast I hope he was.
Stoke monkys are fine but direct drive is going to be more reliable.
Forgive a newbie for an opinion based on limited experience, but I was not joking, I did miss the 4-600# gross weight however. 250w through the BB and an 8 speed cassette is perfectly reasonable for 300# at 18-22mph, but going beyond that is asking too much of it without mods. And if you're going to do serious mods there's no point buying a new pre-built as I understand things.
Similar threads
