The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[Marc S.]

Really liking the charger with my only concern being how hot it gets. How hot is acceptable?

IIRC Justin stated waaay back in this thread, that the internal components of the Satiator are specified to 100°C.

Actually, the Satuatore 'cares' for it self.
At full power, when the temperature will rise to a max of 70°C, the Satiator dials its output power down, to keep it at that temperature.

I charge at the end of the day when I come home and usually don't need fast charging. It doesn't really matter if my batteries are fully charged in 2h or 4h.
Hence, I've configured the standard charging profile for my 10s batteries to 41V/4A. That will raise the Satiator temperature to about 50°C.
If I need faster charging, I can switch to the 41V/8A charging profile.

 

[BVH]

I should have added that I, too, charge at only about 225 Watts/4 Amps and still like using the fan.

 

[redorblack]

Thanks Marc, we've got similar fleets. I've got two Greenspeed GTOs, one with a BBS02 and the other one I just put a Luna MACv5/ASI hub combo on. Also have a Rans Tailwind and a Rans Wave, with a front hub motor on the Wave. And a few others including a Gary Fisher MB I put the BBS02 on and then upgraded to the BBSHD. Running Luna 52v 20ah packs and on my Zap Zapino a 72v 50ah pouch battery pack. Made the move to the Satiator when the new 72v charger that was included with the battery pack went up in smoke a few minutes after hooking it up. Decided it was worth spending the money to protect an expensive collection of batteries.

 

[justin_le]

Really liking the charger with my only concern being how hot it gets. How hot is acceptable?

IIRC Justin stated waaay back in this thread, that the internal components of the Satiator are specified to 100°C.

Actually, the Satuatore 'cares' for it self.
At full power, when the temperature will rise to a max of 70°C, the Satiator dials its output power down, to keep it at that temperature.

This is correct, you can't overheat the Satiator since the power will rollback automatically to keep the internal hot spot at 70oC, which corresponds to a casing temperature of about 60oC. 60 degrees is about the warmest you're supposed to have a surface on a consumer product without "caution hot" symbols and stuff like that. In most environments the Satiator will still be doing the full 360 watts at this point, but in warm spaces with little air flow the rollback power can be more like 330W or even less.

I raise my Satiator a half inch off the surface to expose most of the bottom and then run a 4" fan full-time over the top and bottom surfaces whenever I use mine. Makes a huge difference in case outer temp. It seems to me that all the internals will last longer when run cooler.

There's certainly no harm in doing that even though it's not necessary. Most electrical components prefer to be cold than hot, and you'd have marginally better efficiency too. And some components like the OLED screen certainly have a life that is noticeably derated from use elevated temps. That's part of the reason why it goes into screen saver mode while charging.

I'm curious if you've made note of the internal temperature display when you have this fan on when charging at full power, is it like 45-50oC?

 

[billvon]

General comment / question -

I try to store my batteries at below 80% charge for long life, and charge them only in the morning when they are cool. However, there are days when I need all the range I can get (trip during lunch or something) and on those days I ride in, plug in to charge, then come back down at lunch and ride off.

When I do this, I am charging the batteries when they are hottest - right after the ride. If I could delay charge for an hour to let them cool, I have a feeling it would be better for battery life.

I did this a little while back with an older charger and a little plug in timer, but is there any way to get the satiator to do this?

 

[justin_le]

I did this a little while back with an older charger and a little plug in timer, but is there any way to get the satiator to do this?

Not at the moment. But, if you wire up a 10K NTC thermistor between pins 2 and 3 of the XLR charge port on your battery (or at least such that a thermistor becomes attached between pins 2 and 3 of the Satiator's XLR cable if your pack has a different port) then the Satiator will be able to read the actual battery temperature and it will show this to you while the battery is charging.

That means that it's totally feasible for us to have a later firmware update that gives a more advanced lithium profile setup where you could specify maximum and minimum charging temperatures for the pack. The aim was more to support having low temperature charge mode where it keeps the charging rate to very small trickles than to provide a delay before charging starts to allow the battery to cool, but it would have that effect.

Do you know off hand how hot are the actual battery internals at the end of your ride? We find that on most ebikes they're rarely more than like 10-20 above ambient, and it's not really much of a concern.

 

[Dormin]

Is there any specific reason why the default 100% charge profiles for a 48V lithium battery have the max voltage set at 54.5V instead of 54.6V? Wouldn't 54.6V be better for balancing the battery?

 

[StuRat]

What type of cell?

 

[Dormin]

What type of cell?

LG 18650 3400mAh

 

[amberwolf]

I think he's asking which chemistry. Better yet which specific cell, because the specs for each one are different, and the voltages they should be at may be different than what a particular charge profile happens to be set at.

That way you can be certain to setup a profile with the full pack voltage you want for your specific cells, if they're different from the average.

 

[Dormin]

I think he's asking which chemistry. Better yet which specific cell, because the specs for each one are different, and the voltages they should be at may be different than what a particular charge profile happens to be set at.

That way you can be certain to setup a profile with the full pack voltage you want for your specific cells, if they're different from the average.

They *should* be these Lithium-Ion cells (EDIT: No they are not): http://queenbattery.com.cn/our-prod...1l-18650-3400mah-37v-li-ion-battery-cell.html

It's a shark pack from aliexpress and I haven't opened it so I can't be 100% certain about the cells, but if the sellers listing is to be believed then they should be those LG ones...

EDIT: Ok so I got curious and I opened up the pack and in a big surprise to no one the cells aren't what they're supposed to be :lol:. Their model number is LGGBMH11865 and a bit of googling reveals that those are 3200mAh INR cells. So what was advertised as a 17Ah pack is in reality only 16Ah.

 

[justin_le]

Is there any specific reason why the default 100% charge profiles for a 48V lithium battery have the max voltage set at 54.5V instead of 54.6V? Wouldn't 54.6V be better for balancing the battery?

Technically you're right that 4.20 * 13 = 54.6V, not 54.5V. But in practice that's all within the margin of measurement accuracy and there is no practical difference between 54.5V and 54.6V. That 0.2% difference is less than the measurement error of almost any multimeter anyone is likely to have around, and similarly won't make any difference to the balancing of your battery pack.

The specific reason why? There really isn't one. On the next firmware update I'll try to remember to have that changed so that across the board all the default profiles are at exactly 4.20V. Not because it makes any difference, but just so that there isn't any pointless and slight discrepancy.

 

[billvon]

Do you know off hand how hot are the actual battery internals at the end of your ride? We find that on most ebikes they're rarely more than like 10-20 above ambient, and it's not really much of a concern.

Not directly. The case feels like it's about 30F above ambient (i.e. 100F on a 70F day) but I don't have any direct measurement.

If I can figure out how to disassemble this battery (a Lunacycle pack) I'll put a sensor in there to get a better idea.

 

[leffex]

I just thought I didn’t need a satiator and now I do

I can charge my main pack or big to 80% for extended life (among other things I knw)

I love ebike innovations and people behind it and as well as them starting cool companies and the latest I read in this thread was putting a temp-reader through the middle port of an XLR cable that is not used ”usually” and so to say connect with a temp sensor cable reading from the battery side

Awesome!!!!

 

[BVH]

For a few years, I have charged my two LiFeP04 16S/12 Ah packs to 3.5 Volts per cell. These packs have internal BMS's with balancing. Thinking after all this time that maybe the BMS's wont initiate the balance mode unless they see a 3.6 Volts per cell termination, I charged each pack separately and made a point of being present at termination. The "Charge Complete" notice flashed on and then it began disappearing and the normal charge screen would re-appear and show a very fast burst of charge at approximately 2.7 Amps. (my normal charge rate is 4.0 Amps) and then the Charge Complete would re-appear. I watched this back and forth routine go on for 30 minutes and then stopped the charge. I suspect as the BMS is balancing, causing a drop in pack Voltage to the point where the satiator is detecting a pack that is not full. I've been told by Prodecotech techs that the BMS is an active balancer as opposed to a passive unit. Does this sound like a logical explanation for my observations? I have never observed this when charging to 3.5 VPC.

When the Satiator terminates, is it not a "latching" termination?

More info: Over a 45 minute period of on & off "Charge Complete", an additional .09 Ah/5 WH were added to the Satiator charge totals.

 

[BVH]

No thoughts from the experts here on my above post?

 

[tmho]

No thoughts from the experts here on my above post?

May be you can ask Grin Technology directly or pm junstin_le?

 

[asgardr]

good morning gentlemen,

i`ve recently purchased the:
-cycle satiator 48v
-52v, 20Ah (14s, 6p, 18650 INR 35E ) battery,

and seem to be having a bit of a hard time with them.
So far, i was not able to charge the battery full ( 100% )
the process begins with preconfigured current ( say: 2 Amps ),
but soon goes down to below 1A, and starts oscilating: (voltage and current - as well )
like 0.7, 0.5, 0.4, 0.2, 0.1A loop.
with frequent `Pwr fault restart`in between.
sometimes, i`m able to resume charging by repluging satiator,
sometimes, it wakes up when i repeatedly press the upper button few times,
and other times, it would not charge further at all- giving a `Pwr` every time-
and shortly after it`s been restarted.
So far,the most i got was 85% -no go further.
when it does- charging goes extremaly slow,
Yesterday attempt, got me :
from 52.7v to 55.7v
(52v lithium, 100% 2A profile )
since 10 am, till 00 pm ( round 14 hours ),
that is only 78%.
Today, i tried to go further but it stops on Pwr shortly after reset
my multimeter reads:
55.5v .
Although that is my first Satiator device, i think, something doesn`t go as it normally should,
the battery goes with bluetooth BMS.
where it shows all 14 cell groups, that are properly ballanced
(difference between stongest and weakest group is at the moment: 3.966v --> 3.960v ).

I have made a few shots of the satiator`s display during charging,
perhaps those can better explain the situation than words,
so, i was wondering if somebody might shed some light on
what is possibly happening,
and help me better understand the problem,
or maybe even sugest a solution.

Ps: i have to add that i`ve tried charging on :
- 2A, 3A, 4A, 7A,- similar results..
- ` Force start` feature- Pwr fault
- loading my old 48v, 17.5 Ah battery- similar scenario...`

For some reason i could not attach pictures to the post,
so there is a lint to google drive folder:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ay82U6eZzWQMPwQ3Q0c5rXqbEL6__DqP?usp=sharing

 

[mrbill]

For a few years, I have charged my two LiFeP04 16S/12 Ah packs to 3.5 Volts per cell. These packs have internal BMS's with balancing. Thinking after all this time that maybe the BMS's wont initiate the balance mode unless they see a 3.6 Volts per cell termination, I charged each pack separately and made a point of being present at termination. The "Charge Complete" notice flashed on and then it began disappearing and the normal charge screen would re-appear and show a very fast burst of charge at approximately 2.7 Amps. (my normal charge rate is 4.0 Amps) and then the Charge Complete would re-appear. I watched this back and forth routine go on for 30 minutes and then stopped the charge. I suspect as the BMS is balancing, causing a drop in pack Voltage to the point where the satiator is detecting a pack that is not full. I've been told by Prodecotech techs that the BMS is an active balancer as opposed to a passive unit. Does this sound like a logical explanation for my observations? I have never observed this when charging to 3.5 VPC.

When the Satiator terminates, is it not a "latching" termination?

More info: Over a 45 minute period of on & off "Charge Complete", an additional .09 Ah/5 WH were added to the Satiator charge totals.

I'm not an expert, but I'd say that what you describe is exactly how balancing should work. I prefer that the Satiator does not latch when it first reaches "end of charge", that it remains active, ready to resume charging if it detects a drop in battery voltage. Latching chargers may not allow a BMS to properly balance the cell voltages.

 

[amberwolf]

So far, i was not able to charge the battery full ( 100% )
the process begins with preconfigured current ( say: 2 Amps ),
but soon goes down to below 1A, and starts oscilating: (voltage and current - as well )
like 0.7, 0.5, 0.4, 0.2, 0.1A loop.
with frequent `Pwr fault restart`in between.

I had this problem with an old Luna pack; it appears to be caused by the pack's BMS. It has not happened with any other pack so far, whether they have a BMS or not.

Part of the problem was a balance issue, where cells in teh pack were kinda far out of balance, not super bad but bad enough to cause the BMS to keep shutting off charge current, and cause the satiator to stop charging, but it was like the BMS didn't fully shut off charge, every time, just sometimes.

Never did figure out the issue--but the pack wouldn't charge on a regular charger, either, any better than on teh Satiator, even it's original charger.


The only other time I had problems with power faults was when there was a bad ground connection inside the Satiator, caused by my dogs dragging it around by the cord (it was at least a few years old at this point; I think I've had it for six years now).

 

[Zeus99]

Where can I find the latest 'Cycle Satiator' firmware? is it 1.026?

 

[tomjasz]

Where can I find the latest 'Cycle Satiator' firmware? is it 1.026?

Yes, on their web page.
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html

 

[Merlin]

i like to charge only to 4.1v each cell.

but...

settings for each program have the option to stop charging when setup amps are reached(dropping)

for example: default is 0.1a ...so if you setup 84v it will charge full cc/cv and after charger stops all your cells will hold the voltage @ 4.2v/cell

i want to cut the CV stage at 4.0A..so the charger reach quickly 84v and the early cut of CV will drop the cells to 4.12v/cell or 90% SOC.

and yes. the satiator show a charge complete.
BUT: it continue charging in the background.

did i miss something in the settings?

 

[justin_le]

i like to charge only to 4.1v each cell.
but...
settings for each program have the option to stop charging when setup amps are reached(dropping)

As explained in the Satiator manual this setting only controls when the charger screen says "charge complete", it does not ever stop the output current which is counter productive to cell balancing with most BMS circuits.

i want to cut the CV stage at 4.0A..so the charger reach quickly 84v and the early cut of CV will drop the cells to 4.12v/cell or 90% SOC.

For this, there is a bit of a hack that you can do which I discussed earlier in this thread, ( see here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=963149#p963149 ) and that is namely to include the approximate battery pack resistance in with the cable resistance term. Then you can set the target voltage of 4.1 V/cell but that will be at the presumed open circuit voltage since the IR voltage drop is subtracted off.

Our plan when we we have time to do more in depth firmware work is to enable this as a more automated "IR Compensated bulk charge" feature that could be enabled on individual profiles and which would do automated measurements of the pack resistance during the charge cycle rather than requiring the user to input a fixed value lumped in with the output cable resistance.

 

[eikido]

If i'm not mistaken, the Cycle Satiator can estimate a battery packs capacity since it calculates the Ah charged?
That is if it's still fresh or bad.