The first and BEST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

izeman said:
seeing you ride that bike makes it hard to supress my wish to build a high powered mid drive as well. i like my 2kW bike, great to ride, reliable and everything, but i doesn't wheelie at all. and for me a perfect ride has ALWAYS more power than you dare to use. then it's properly sized :)

Believe it or not, it is possible to have too much power. This bike is nearing that point, but not quite there. The Dominoe throttle is really a blessing with its fine resolution.

Also, gearing is extraordinarily important. Gearing any bike (high power or low power) is a matter of matching the torque at the rear wheel you desire with a top speed you can live with. This bike was built to achieve 40 to 45 mph with good wheelie power and great performance in snow. If I wanted more, I would need to add more motor. If I could settle for 30mph, one motor would work fine. It is all about balancing torque and speed requirements, then size the drive system accordingly.

Matt
 
recumpence said:
Gearing any bike (high power or low power) is a matter of matching the torque at the rear wheel you desire with a top speed you can live with.
Matt

That is such a valid point that is often missed by people. The most common question I get asked by non ebikers is "how fast can it go?" The few people who have shown enough interest to have me spec a build for them always ask how much power they need to go X mph. What ends up happening is total sticker shock when I tell them how much it will cost to have insane acceleration and a 60mph top speed. As if somehow a bike that performs like a $10k motorcycle should be cheaper because its a bicycle.

On a somewhat related note I have lots of buddies who ride gas motorcycles and most of them have traded their 180mph sport bikes for 70-80mph top speed supermoto dirt bikes. Like Matt said matching the torque at the wheel with a top speed you can live with. The trick is being honest with yourself about the top speed you need.
 
recumpence said:
izeman said:
seeing you ride that bike makes it hard to supress my wish to build a high powered mid drive as well. i like my 2kW bike, great to ride, reliable and everything, but i doesn't wheelie at all. and for me a perfect ride has ALWAYS more power than you dare to use. then it's properly sized :)

Believe it or not, it is possible to have too much power. This bike is nearing that point, but not quite there. The Dominoe throttle is really a blessing with its fine resolution.

Also, gearing is extraordinarily important. Gearing any bike (high power or low power) is a matter of matching the torque at the rear wheel you desire with a top speed you can live with. This bike was built to achieve 40 to 45 mph with good wheelie power and great performance in snow. If I wanted more, I would need to add more motor. If I could settle for 30mph, one motor would work fine. It is all about balancing torque and speed requirements, then size the drive system accordingly.

Matt

I never heard of the dominoe throttle. In the past you always used a Magura throttle right? How can the Dominoe throttle have a finer resolution? They both use a 5k ohm pot.
 
Byte said:
recumpence said:
izeman said:
seeing you ride that bike makes it hard to supress my wish to build a high powered mid drive as well. i like my 2kW bike, great to ride, reliable and everything, but i doesn't wheelie at all. and for me a perfect ride has ALWAYS more power than you dare to use. then it's properly sized :)

Believe it or not, it is possible to have too much power. This bike is nearing that point, but not quite there. The Dominoe throttle is really a blessing with its fine resolution.

Also, gearing is extraordinarily important. Gearing any bike (high power or low power) is a matter of matching the torque at the rear wheel you desire with a top speed you can live with. This bike was built to achieve 40 to 45 mph with good wheelie power and great performance in snow. If I wanted more, I would need to add more motor. If I could settle for 30mph, one motor would work fine. It is all about balancing torque and speed requirements, then size the drive system accordingly.

Matt

I never heard of the dominoe throttle. In the past you always used a Magura throttle right? How can the Dominoe throttle have a finer resolution? They both use a 5k ohm pot.
I'm not sure. Maybe they use a higher quality pot? High quality pot..... no pun intended.... :mrgreen:

Matt
 
madin88 said:
recumpence said:
I'm not sure. Maybe they use a higher quality pot? High quality pot..... no pun intended.... :mrgreen:

Matt
fact is that domino has different operating angle and the grip feels much more comfortable - thats the main reason i like it over the magura
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/03/30/5k-ohm-throttles-domino-vs-magura/

my source of supply: https://fasterbikes.eu/de/gahebel-p...asdrehgriff-mit-ganzem-griff-gahebel-pas.html
I have used different grips on the Magura abs this throttle is still better.
 
I just wanted to mention that I weighed the bike. I was correct. It weighs 125 pounds exactly with the carbon fiber Drive Unit cover in place. The bike is now up for sale. It is listed in the for sale Section. Part of me hopes it does not sell because I love this bike. However, every bike I build is offered for sale. :mrgreen:

Matt
 
spinningmagnets said:
If you are certain you are done, make sure to get a few nice "calendar" pics for...well...you know.

Ha, will do. :wink:

With the snow gone here in Illinois, I decided to do some trail riding. Wow, this thing is phenominal......

Too much power..... I love it! :mrgreen:

Matt
 
New GoPro video.

https://youtu.be/yIGC38yrk2k

This is a 4 minute ride partially through the same park as my snow riding video, and partially through a very short trail and in grass. Since the snow melted, I wanted to get some video of what the bike rides like in summer conditions. This is the first ride of the bike in decent traction off-road conditions. All I can say is WOW! This thing handles so well it almost feels wrong. The bike has amazing power, but it is controllable. It handles razor sharp, but is not twitchy. It is light, but has substance. I REALLY like the overall balance of power, speed, handling, weight, head tube angle, seat position, pedal placement, etc. Oh, this ride pulled about 4.6 ah out of the 80ah pack. That means this bike is good for well over an hour of this type of riding (probably about 70 to 80 minutes of riding just like in this video).

I pulled the data from the data loggers on the controllers and here is the raw info (all data is a total of both controllers combined for a true total system analysis).

This run pulled a maximum of 18,000 watts (when smacking the throttle open) during this run. That was a touch under 400 amps peak. That is very good because right now it is geared for 32 mph. That gearing was set for deep, wet snow riding. I innitially had geared it for 42mph when I built the bike and it pulled 580 amps. These controllers like a peak of about 540 to 550 amps to keep from erroring them due to over-amping. So, just as I found with the Motoped using the same drive system, it looks like 36 mph gearing is about perfect for my riding style, body weight, riding area, etc. Remember, this is without any augmentation what-so-ever. I have no torque limiter on this bike, no CA, nothing to ease the amp load. It is just a pure pass-through throttle setup that allows the controllers to pull all the amps I ask for, no matter how unreasonable that request may be. I could add a torque limiter or setup a CA for it and I could gear the bike for as high a top speed as I want without any over-amping issues at all. The reason I have not done that with this bike is because I have found any augmentation (torque limiting) wether mechanical or electronic, dampens the "Hit" (or the feel) of the throttle. There is a bit of processing delay in the CA that is noticeable when running an otherwise very responsive and powerful system like this, and a torque limiter takes away some snap of the front end by slipping a small amount upon innitial throttle opening. Also, the high 30s-mph is about perfect for my area. The 42mph top speed I had it geared for at first was scary fast for my area. Every place I have to ride is relatively tight. There is alot of on-off throttle transitions, tight turns, overall an area that favors sharp accelleration above top speed. If I gear it up and use a CA or a torque limiter, I would be running at a lower throttle setting to achieve the proper speed for my riding locations. This would just load up the controllers and heat them up from pulling high load at lower throttle setting than what is ideal. Now, if I lived in an area with open space like long fire roads or logging access roads, I would gear it up to favor top speed over acceleration. But, for my area, it looks like 36mph top speed gearing is perfect. That will give me the highest speed I would normally use, while maximizing my accelleration and keeping the amp draw below the threshold.

I am nearing perfection on this build. I have a couple tiny changes to make and this thing will be perfect for my needs.

Matt
 
Oh, Hey, not to muddy the waters, but, I have the parts in stock to build a triple motor drive for this bike if I really wanted to. :mrgreen:

That would be too much power, though. Of course, I could gear it for 50mph without any problem amd have all the wheelie insanity I could imagine. Of course the weight would go up and the efficiency would go down...... :(

Matt
 
This run pulled a maximum of 18,000 watts (when smacking the throttle open) during this run. That was a touch under 400 amps peak

Whats the efficiency of the astro 3220 at 9kw input each ? have you measured it on a dyno what the actually output power is? , as their peak efficiency seems to by high only at low power in this thread below but what is efficiency at 400 amps i.e how much gets to the wheels ?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65757&start=325
So on column R i can see the cyclone motor efficiency peaks at 89.95% and peak power at this efficiency is 5980w, is that running 72v ? wow thats a lot of power from such a small motor! and the efficiency is very similar to the ASTRO motors of 3210 8t has 93% efficient but at a low lower power of 1219 W and the 3220 4t has 93% efficiency but at low peak power of 2830w is that true ?

But also if you factor in the ASTRO motors have a higher 169 KV they will probably be running higher RPM and hence you would need more reduction and maybe another reduction stage which adds weight and hence the efficiency looses would be worse compared to the cyclone 122 kv. As others have said this can be 5 to 10% losses per reduction stage, so when used as a mid drive or direct to the rear wheel with one stage reduction the cyclone motor may have overall higher efficiency possible than these 2 common Astro motors if you add the gear reduction losses ?
 
Alex07 said:
This run pulled a maximum of 18,000 watts (when smacking the throttle open) during this run. That was a touch under 400 amps peak

Whats the efficiency of the astro 3220 at 9kw input each ? have you measured it on a dyno what the actually output power is? , as their peak efficiency seems to by high only at low power in this thread below but what is efficiency at 400 amps i.e how much gets to the wheels ?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65757&start=325
So on column R i can see the cyclone motor efficiency peaks at 89.95% and peak power at this efficiency is 5980w, is that running 72v ? wow thats a lot of power from such a small motor! and the efficiency is very similar to the ASTRO motors of 3210 8t has 93% efficient but at a low lower power of 1219 W and the 3220 4t has 93% efficiency but at low peak power of 2830w is that true ?

But also if you factor in the ASTRO motors have a higher 169 KV they will probably be running higher RPM and hence you would need more reduction and maybe another reduction stage which adds weight and hence the efficiency looses would be worse compared to the cyclone 122 kv. As others have said this can be 5 to 10% losses per reduction stage, so when used as a mid drive or direct to the rear wheel with one stage reduction the cyclone motor may have overall higher efficiency possible than these 2 common Astro motors if you add the gear reduction losses ?
Great question. I am using 3 turn motors. These motors have an efficiency centered at a higher wattage output than the 4 turn motor you quoted above. You have to remember, most riding is done at lower power levels. That means the bike has good overall efficiency for General riding and therefore a decent range. Back when Bob owned Astro flight, he did some Dyno testing for me. We found that this motor peaks in the efficiency at 5800 watts. And at 10000 Watts, the motor was still 87% efficient. Some changes have been made to these motors since then. I'm not exactly sure how much output power they have at Peak battery amperage. I can tell you, however, the power to the rear wheel is astounding! I've been forced to program a slight amount of throttle delay into the controllers to tame the insanity. Also, when I build a bike of this power level, I spend a lot of time getting used to the way the bike rides and the way the throttle responds to make sure I don't hurt myself. This is not a novice bike as Kepler mentions in his post.

I bet if geared properly the bike probably has upwards of 28 horsepower actual output at the rear wheel to the ground. But that is pure speculation based on lightweight motorcycles I have ridden knowing the output they have. The actual numbers don't concern me too much. It's all about how the bike rides. :)
 
The more I ride this bike, the more I want to keep it (of course, I say that about every build :mrgreen: ).

I took it on a one of my typical summer type rides yesterday. This is the normal ride I do every day in the summer around our small town. It is about 4 miles. I pedaled about 75% of the time and kept the speed around 25mph the majority of the ride. I did a few short accelleration blasts and a couple very tiny off road excursions and, generally, had fun with the bike without just going flat out all the time like in my GoPro videos. The bike pedals very well (for a 125 pound bike), is easy to ride, rides well no-handed, corners well, and has good manors while still retaining the beast within for those occasional hard blasts. I love this thing.....

Now that this build is mechanically finished and running well, I am beginning a R&D project for a well known client that should start within the next 2 weeks. I am, also, building a triple motor drive for another client this week. So, the shop is quite busy right now! All I have left for this bike is installing a 18 tooth freewheel to gear it up a touch and installing the twin LED headlights I have. Oh, and I want to have some lettering done on the bike. Byond that, it is finished.

Matt
 
I installed my no-name LED headlights from eBay. I tried to get a good picture of how bright they are. But, the camera did not do it justice. Basically they are about as bright as normal car headlights. The bike rides great at night with these.

Matt
 

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Sub'd. Sick build!! Got any 3rd person vids? I saw one, not sure if it was yours. Also, are you still in touch with David Pearce? He kind of vanished into the wind like a virgin on prom night.
 
Rix said:
Sub'd. Sick build!! Got any 3rd person vids? I saw one, not sure if it was yours. Also, are you still in touch with David Pearce? He kind of vanished into the wind like a virgin on prom night.

I have a few youtube videos of the bike. The problem is, the GoPro video with the camera on the bike makes it sound really loud. Basically the idlers on the left side of the bike are echoing through the frame and directly into the camera. It sounds horrible! But, in actual riding, there is just a small muffled whine (barely audible when riding).

I actually broke a drive belt today doing some seriously hard riding. That takes a huge amount of torque to accomplish (25mm wide belt). The way I will resolve this for the future is to go up in motor pulley size by 25% and down in freewheel tooth count by 25%. That will move 25% of the torque from the belt to the final drive chain.

As far as David Pierce goes, I will have to PM you about that. I do not want to post it on a public forum. But, yes, I do have some idea of what is up with him.

Matt
 
I have a few youtube videos of the bike. The problem is, the GoPro video with the camera on the bike makes it sound really loud. Basically the idlers on the left side of the bike are echoing through the frame and directly into the camera. It sounds horrible! But, in actual riding, there is just a small muffled whine (barely audible when riding).

Go pro is funny like that. Ironically, its not as bad when attached to a CF handlebar vs an aluminum bar. Also, even the quietest of hub motors sound louder than actually are with GP.

I actually broke a drive belt today doing some seriously hard riding. That takes a huge amount of torque to accomplish (25mm wide belt). The way I will resolve this for the future is to go up in motor pulley size by 25% and down in freewheel tooth count by 25%. That will move 25% of the torque from the belt to the final drive chain.

That is surprising, did you land while on the throttle? or was it just a snap of the throttle from stop? Just increasing the pulley size will be enough, but also down on the freewheel T count is a plus. Nothing like a little mechanical advantage to sort things outs.

As far as David Pierce goes, I will have to PM you about that. I do not want to post it on a public forum. But, yes, I do have some idea of what is up with him.

Please do when you get some time. Before I got involved with the Stealth FUTR frames, I had reached out to Dave and bounced an idea off of him about modding his Phasor frame. Long short was he would look into it if there was interest. It never went anywhere, but it could have possible been a game changer for the DIY crowd. Anyway I talked with him a few times, specifically about the big current he was running through geared hub motors and his thermo management, really liked his style so to speak, would like to see him back.
 
Rix,

Believe it or not, the belt snapped when I cracked the throttle open at 50% speed. Bascially, I was going 18mph, I leaned forward and hit the throttle. I heard something strange. Then when I got on it again, it snapped. This thing pulls 24,000 watts at full throttle and I have the throttle set for "Soft" in the controller software to reduce the insane hit this thing would normally have. It has the potential of 28,000 watts. But that is too much power and it is really hard on the controllers. With the throttle sensitivity set high, it will wheelie uncontrollably with the tiniest touch of the throttle. So, it is set for 1/2 second ramp. That makes it rideable.

I will PM you shortly.

Matt
 
Problem solved. I did as I mentioned; I went up 25% in pulley size and down 25% in freewheel size. This gave me a net speed change of zero while reducing the load on the belt by that same 25%, while increasing belt speed. So, it has a bit more sound. It actually sounds better as the frequency is higher. :D

An additional benefit from this change is; I was able to reduce the belt tension a bit without belt skip. This will, also, help the belt.

I love this bike! 40mph is absolutely perfect for this thing. It gives me crazy wheelie power with enough speed for any trail in my area. I am a happy camper. :mrgreen:

Matt
 
recumpence said:
Problem solved. I did as I mentioned; I went up 25% in pulley size and down 25% in freewheel size. This gave me a net speed change of zero while reducing the load on the belt by that same 25%, while increasing belt speed. So, it has a bit more sound. It actually sounds better as the frequency is higher. :D

An additional benefit from this change is; I was able to reduce the belt tension a bit without belt skip. This will, also, help the belt.

I love this bike! 40mph is absolutely perfect for this thing. It gives me crazy wheelie power with enough speed for any trail in my area. I am a happy camper. :mrgreen:

Matt

Damn Matt, I am jealous of your machine. 40MPH is all really need, and tons of hillclimbing/wheelie power is a plus.
 
The cool thing about this bike; it has so much torque that if I cruise at 30mph and crack the throttle, it will snap wheelie up to its 40mph top speed.

I love this thing.......
 
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