Thieves stealing copperFrom EV chargingStationsInVancouver
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dogman dan
1 PW
They yank copper from anything unsecured enough here, Strip malls, Day cares, Churches. Anyplace they can pop a tin box, and start pulling the thick copper cable from the underground pipes. They attach it to the truck bumper, and drive off ripping it from the screw down contacts inside the building.
This stuff is 1/2 inch thick or better, worth a lot.
This stuff is 1/2 inch thick or better, worth a lot.
Here they steal even brass plumbing fixtures--most commonly the flushers for the men's urinals. You'll see some guy (or girl!) heading real fast out the door, from the direction of the restrooms, and hear the sound of water spraying everywhere or see it flooding out from under the door if you're close enough to the RR.
How they get the things off without getting htemselves soaked I dunno, but it's happened twice at work a few years back (not recently) and neithe rof the culprits (who were never caught AFAIK) looked wet at all.
At one point it was so bad scrapyards stopped taking (whether on their own or by law I don't know) quite a few items, including htose, and the problem seems to be much less now. But stuff still frequently disappears from anywher eit isn't locked up and/or under actual eye contact 24/7. People lose all sorts of metal anything out of their front yards, up to and including the faucets themselves, but usually things like lawn furniture or decorations, and garden hose nozzles (often brass) and sprinklers (often aluminum). they usually just cut the hose end off and run, from what I can tell.
Several years back, they destroyed the AC units on the roof of the shopping complex I work at, trying to steal the copper out of them. The complex woudln't repair or replace any of them, saying they were the responsibility of the shops leasing there. Some of the places (like Anna's Linens) just moved out immediately, rather than deal with it. Even now, the units that would cool our back room and breakroom don't work, so it get's pretty hot back there (and someitmes pretty cold in the winter since they are heatpumps working either way as needed). Those will probably never be fixed.
How they get the things off without getting htemselves soaked I dunno, but it's happened twice at work a few years back (not recently) and neithe rof the culprits (who were never caught AFAIK) looked wet at all.
At one point it was so bad scrapyards stopped taking (whether on their own or by law I don't know) quite a few items, including htose, and the problem seems to be much less now. But stuff still frequently disappears from anywher eit isn't locked up and/or under actual eye contact 24/7. People lose all sorts of metal anything out of their front yards, up to and including the faucets themselves, but usually things like lawn furniture or decorations, and garden hose nozzles (often brass) and sprinklers (often aluminum). they usually just cut the hose end off and run, from what I can tell.
Several years back, they destroyed the AC units on the roof of the shopping complex I work at, trying to steal the copper out of them. The complex woudln't repair or replace any of them, saying they were the responsibility of the shops leasing there. Some of the places (like Anna's Linens) just moved out immediately, rather than deal with it. Even now, the units that would cool our back room and breakroom don't work, so it get's pretty hot back there (and someitmes pretty cold in the winter since they are heatpumps working either way as needed). Those will probably never be fixed.
liveforphysics
100 TW
6awg is the standard conductor size for j1772 level 2 charge heads. You have 2 of those per cable, the cables are typically 15ft long.
That's 30ft of 6awg copper wire, which weighs 0.109lbs/ft.
That's 3.27lbs of copper. It's $2.50/lbs for bright clean stripped scrap copper.
That's $8.17 assuming they took the time to strip all the jacketing from the conductors.
This is more than a 1hour job, and requires tools.
What sort of society creates a situation where working to make under $8/hr is worth risking being locked in a cage, while simultaneously others in the same city are struggling to even think of ways to spend the massive wealth/resources they accumulate daily.
There are folks who spend $100k/month just to park and maintain the 2nd yacht they no longer remember owning, and simultaneously folks choose desperate, destructive, and dangerous methods to make less than minimum wage for an hour.
This is an inherently unstable system and inevitably will collapse on itself from the weight of it's own corruption.
That's 30ft of 6awg copper wire, which weighs 0.109lbs/ft.
That's 3.27lbs of copper. It's $2.50/lbs for bright clean stripped scrap copper.
That's $8.17 assuming they took the time to strip all the jacketing from the conductors.
This is more than a 1hour job, and requires tools.
What sort of society creates a situation where working to make under $8/hr is worth risking being locked in a cage, while simultaneously others in the same city are struggling to even think of ways to spend the massive wealth/resources they accumulate daily.
There are folks who spend $100k/month just to park and maintain the 2nd yacht they no longer remember owning, and simultaneously folks choose desperate, destructive, and dangerous methods to make less than minimum wage for an hour.
This is an inherently unstable system and inevitably will collapse on itself from the weight of it's own corruption.
Dauntless
100 TW
What copper wire is recycled there is no need to strip the insulation off, they have a process. A lot of it is reused, not even sold to recycling but to a contractor. After Hurricane Katrina there was big business in getting into a building at night and stealing the bricks to truck down to Louisiana. I remember the footage where they followed one guy and were telling the contractor who was buying them where these bricks were stolen from and he tells the camera to "Go to hell." I never heard if he went to jail.
We have a lot of copper theft around here, one of the parks a few years ago was hit the night before opening day for little league, with some of the games to be played at night. The story is they make a hell of a lot more than $8/hr. The vast majority of those who are arrested for these types of crimes are welfare recipients, living in the inherently unstable world the previous poster would seem to be promoting. Hence the term 'Welfare Looters.' The theft of the copper is another example of the welfare state collapsing from the weight of its' own corruption. Never mind the boogie man, we have to fear the POGEY man.
The yacht created jobs when it was built, creates jobs when it is maintained, won't cost $100k to park for as long as it exists but the marina where these yachts are is more jobs. Usually you don't have these employees out committing these crimes. It's the people who DON'T have to get up in the morning, not even to go to the bank because the welfare check is electronically deposited to their debit card. But oh don't the tears flow from the finger pointers who are determined to blame everyone BUT the guilty party when the welfare looters have their pogie cut off.
It was about 7 years ago that a father was playing with his injured son just outside the hospital when these two women I think in their 30's if I remember, came up to take the ball away from them. These were large women, the dad was no match. The I think 10 year son took firm hold of the ball, one of the woman grabbed him by the surgical halo that protected his neck and shook him several times, then was hitting him in the head as the security from the hospital finally arrived.
This was in Texas, around a haven for Katrina refugees such as these women. They received welfare checks, lived in a shelter, and spent their time committing such crimes.
And isn't it ironic that yacht is the Dutch word jacht, or 'Hunt.' Originally applied to the small boats used to chase pirates which doubled as safe craft to carry important people around, eventually evolving into the current known use as such people owned their own boats.
Yeah, you definitely got that right. This welfare state is an inherently unstable system and inevitably will collapse on itself from the weight of it's own corruption. If only people were so ready to admit the problem as they say they are.
We have a lot of copper theft around here, one of the parks a few years ago was hit the night before opening day for little league, with some of the games to be played at night. The story is they make a hell of a lot more than $8/hr. The vast majority of those who are arrested for these types of crimes are welfare recipients, living in the inherently unstable world the previous poster would seem to be promoting. Hence the term 'Welfare Looters.' The theft of the copper is another example of the welfare state collapsing from the weight of its' own corruption. Never mind the boogie man, we have to fear the POGEY man.
The yacht created jobs when it was built, creates jobs when it is maintained, won't cost $100k to park for as long as it exists but the marina where these yachts are is more jobs. Usually you don't have these employees out committing these crimes. It's the people who DON'T have to get up in the morning, not even to go to the bank because the welfare check is electronically deposited to their debit card. But oh don't the tears flow from the finger pointers who are determined to blame everyone BUT the guilty party when the welfare looters have their pogie cut off.
It was about 7 years ago that a father was playing with his injured son just outside the hospital when these two women I think in their 30's if I remember, came up to take the ball away from them. These were large women, the dad was no match. The I think 10 year son took firm hold of the ball, one of the woman grabbed him by the surgical halo that protected his neck and shook him several times, then was hitting him in the head as the security from the hospital finally arrived.
This was in Texas, around a haven for Katrina refugees such as these women. They received welfare checks, lived in a shelter, and spent their time committing such crimes.
And isn't it ironic that yacht is the Dutch word jacht, or 'Hunt.' Originally applied to the small boats used to chase pirates which doubled as safe craft to carry important people around, eventually evolving into the current known use as such people owned their own boats.
Yeah, you definitely got that right. This welfare state is an inherently unstable system and inevitably will collapse on itself from the weight of it's own corruption. If only people were so ready to admit the problem as they say they are.
Here, the scrapyards pay a lot less for non-bare wire, and they won't take wire that's had the insulatiion burned off of it. So if you don't strip it down first, you don't get much.Dauntless said:
(edit: I shoudl note that it's been a while now since I've bothered with recycling stuff; I did a fair bit of it before the fire, and had stored up a bunch of stuff I'd planned on taking down but most of it was stolen or disposed of by others during the cleanup and rebuild. So I guess it's been around a year and a half since I've been to a scrapyard, and rules might've changed to something laxer now, but I doubt it--it's probably even more restrictive).
:? I don't understand the last part of the sentence. If you mean me, I certainly am not promoting any such thing--just stating some of the things that have been happening here. I don't see that anyone in the thread was, either, but I could've easily misunderstood someone.
I don't know for certain how many of the people that come in the store I work at to fraudulently return stolen items are welfare-recipients, but I know some of them are (easy to see when their EBT/etc cards are laid out along with a number of IDs from different states, and sometimes for differnet people, while they fill out the forms and give us their story on why they're returning them). I don't think that most of them are actually the ones stealing the items, although they could be--but they return htem in trade for a portion of the proceeds. It is a growing problem, at least here in Phoenix.
Yes, it is. Especially when people that *could* get jobs and be productive members of society, and/or already have good jobs and don't need to be on it are, but people that do need it (like I have in the past a couple of times) can't get it at all (I might be able to now, but I don't absolutely need it like I did then when I couldn't get it).
I still get mail now and then from DES, IRS, SS, etc for people that don't live at my address and AFAIK never have. I drop that stuff off in groups at the post office as undeliverable mail (or give it to the postal worker if I happen to be there when they come up to the house). When I call the sender to advise them of the wrong address almost invariably they say things like "oh, ok, we'll investigate" or "yeah, we know about this person". I am hoping those things mean they are going to remove the people fraudulently using other people's addresses and/or names/etc from the rolls of those receiving assistance. I used to get LOTS of such mail, but since getting back to the house after the fire there's been a lot less of it, for whatever reason.
You'd think that simply because multiple unrelated people were using the same address they'd investigate that or it'd be flagged in the computer system somehow...but apparently that doesn't happen. Or if it does, they just ignore it.
The fingers
10 TW
I now see ATMs with signs that say they take EBT.
Pat Eaton
10 W
I work for a cable company in BC and for years our fibre cable was stolen by thieves hacking down copper phone cables. About a year ago the RCMP cracked down on the recyclers after CBC did an expose about selling scrap to the recyclers. Since then our cable theft has dropped 99%. Makes my life a lot easier.
If the thieves can't sell it they won't steal it.
If the thieves can't sell it they won't steal it.
RLT
10 kW
Up in Albuquerque a year or so ago a copper thief cut into a live 600A line with bolt cutters.
Got what he deserved.
Got what he deserved.
liveforphysics
100 TW
RLT said:
Compassion friend.
No matter how much you may feel justified in judging someone, if you had that persons chain of life experiences instead of your own, you have no assurance you wouldn't have done the same.
Judging is the process by which people choose to show the world they are flawed and without peace.
Dauntless
100 TW
Copper wire insulation can be burned off, melted off as water before the copper melts, or most reuseably granulated off. If it's already been burned some I could see where it might get tougher to get off. Or they even sell the wire chopped up with the insulation still on it, no idea why.
In California I think it is state law that you have to have an account at the recycler and be registered as someone who'd have these metals to be recycled to sell them to the particular recycler.
amberwolf said:
But sir, you weren't the previous poster, where would you get the idea it was YOU that was decrying the evils of our failure to achieve welfare utopia?
amberwolf said:
Yeah, I started readying that hoping you were going to back some of those people up as good people, (The system is supposed to be for people who are ALMOST there) but then I guess that wasn't the subject at hand. So a guy near me was homeless once out of not getting his life in order in time for a recession, yada yada, he's quite an activist in trying to help others heading in that direction. At his church, when they did the food bank giveaways, he'd act as security, as he's a former body builder and quite huge. I ask him "A church needs security at a food giveaway?" And he says yes they do.
So I happened to be driving by one day and I saw him hard at work. I wondered if I should have gotten out and helped him, I didn't drive away until he had it under control. I asked him what that was about, he said "Some people get angry at others over what they've done to themselves." How I happened to meet him was that I was passing out cigarettes during an episode where the local police were caught on camera beating a homeless man to death for no reason: he being a health nut he took offense to giving his fellow homeless death sticks. Though he wound up admitting his behavior was an example of how he "Needed to work on myself before I think about what others are doing." So he's off the street, we're friendly, yada yada.
He even said much the same thing as I always say: 'I'm an adult, I take care of others, they don't take care of me.'
A really great story I need to find again, I can't tell it correctly right now. But it was to the effect of an 18th century Frenchman philosopher who sold the king on the idea that there were something like 874 kinds of personalities, so if you set up a community of one man and one woman per personality, it would be perfectly balanced. This included the thieves, the loafers, all were accounted for. Rather than asking if he's SURE that the 1:1 ratio he was talking about could really support those who wouldn't support themselves, the king let him experiment with it, including a colony in North America. I'm thinking the Russians also set up such a colony based on his teachings.
Of course, the point being these experiments were a disaster. (I wish I could remember his name.) You cannot order a society to be economically viable, hence the impossibility of socialism ever working. It's one thing for the Society of Tammany to hand out coal to the working and mostly self supporting or 19th century Manhattan, quite another to have a whole segment of society expecting to be carried. I've been a volunteer at food banks, I was already familiar with people becoming angry that you don't have what they really want, as much as they want, some money to go with it. The previously mentioned church gave up and shut down their food bank. The man doing security would complain of people on welfare with a "Medical" marijuana card determined they were going to sell it at the food bank. And don't they rail about our horrible society.
Ah well, just to allow for some entertainment at the expense of these fool philosophers, here's a video about the Marquis de Sade.
http://www.biography.com/people/groups/famous-french-philosophers
Yup the usually burn it off
They think they are hiding the evidence in the paranoid drug fueled state
(It is true some companies have their wire marked so they can trace the theft)
and they can burn a huge lot a once
The problem is speed/crack mostly
But some bums do it just to get by
Or the scrap yards hire underage kids who will face no penalties if caught
Even sicker is when they steal art sculptures or plaques from cemetaries
A real sign of a society in decline
They think they are hiding the evidence in the paranoid drug fueled state
(It is true some companies have their wire marked so they can trace the theft)
and they can burn a huge lot a once
The problem is speed/crack mostly
But some bums do it just to get by
Or the scrap yards hire underage kids who will face no penalties if caught
Even sicker is when they steal art sculptures or plaques from cemetaries
A real sign of a society in decline
Dauntless
100 TW
Radio news story a few years ago. Local KNX AM went on about so many EBT transactions traced to the ATM at a strip club in downtown LA. So they go in to confront the owner, whom they at least admitted had a point with what he had to say:
First of all, to the haughty comments about their welfare money is just as good as anyone's, the guy says "Do YOU want to come in and be the one to kick them out because they're on welfare?" He says he has no idea how many people use EBT cards to get welfare cash on the machine, that's not operated by the club. If they DID set the machine up so EBT's didn't work there then they'd probably just get cash before they came and he STILL won't know anything.
Just another example of the finger pointers always expecting SOMEONE ELSE to deal with it. The club didn't do anything wrong, but blame them anyway, instead of the people actually DOING it.
Yeah, the lack of peace is often caused by the one being judged. While those decrying the judging are judging others who didn't do anything to be judged. As they say in politics, it's all a matter of whose sacred cow is being gored.
And the fact is most people DO have the life experiences of the copper thief, and worse, without doing the same at all.
Compassion, there's too little in this world, why waste it on the wrong people?
So back in gradeschool, one of my classmates was late. The nun wanted to put him on the hotseat and make him explain why he was late. He starts to tell this story of this accident right in front of them on the way to school, his dad getting out of the car and seeing a boy not much older than his own son dying. Luckily dad was a doctor, right? He went to work with a tracheotomy to keep the kid alive long enough for the ambulance to come. The nun was not amused, he was in trouble.
But it was a TRUE STORY. Some of us brought the newspaper article to school the next day. Oh, the poor, poor nun, having to deal with us rude kids. . . .
Before long I met this kid from the accident, struggling to walk and learn to have a normal life. Immediately after we met, an older relative of his disappeared. After a few months her body was found, the obvious work of an unidentified serial killer. If you really wanted a lesson in compassion, good and bad, that becomes quite a story. The guy who confessed to the killing (Though never charged with it) got a big candlelight vigil outside the prision the night of his execution. Far more compassion for him than his victims or this kid from the accident would see.
If someone knocks my power out and burns himself trying to steal the power lines, I'll say he got what he deserved. If he kills someone else with his actions, THERE will be where my compassion is directed. In the appropriate direction only.
First of all, to the haughty comments about their welfare money is just as good as anyone's, the guy says "Do YOU want to come in and be the one to kick them out because they're on welfare?" He says he has no idea how many people use EBT cards to get welfare cash on the machine, that's not operated by the club. If they DID set the machine up so EBT's didn't work there then they'd probably just get cash before they came and he STILL won't know anything.
Just another example of the finger pointers always expecting SOMEONE ELSE to deal with it. The club didn't do anything wrong, but blame them anyway, instead of the people actually DOING it.
liveforphysics said:
Yeah, the lack of peace is often caused by the one being judged. While those decrying the judging are judging others who didn't do anything to be judged. As they say in politics, it's all a matter of whose sacred cow is being gored.
And the fact is most people DO have the life experiences of the copper thief, and worse, without doing the same at all.
Compassion, there's too little in this world, why waste it on the wrong people?
So back in gradeschool, one of my classmates was late. The nun wanted to put him on the hotseat and make him explain why he was late. He starts to tell this story of this accident right in front of them on the way to school, his dad getting out of the car and seeing a boy not much older than his own son dying. Luckily dad was a doctor, right? He went to work with a tracheotomy to keep the kid alive long enough for the ambulance to come. The nun was not amused, he was in trouble.
But it was a TRUE STORY. Some of us brought the newspaper article to school the next day. Oh, the poor, poor nun, having to deal with us rude kids. . . .
Before long I met this kid from the accident, struggling to walk and learn to have a normal life. Immediately after we met, an older relative of his disappeared. After a few months her body was found, the obvious work of an unidentified serial killer. If you really wanted a lesson in compassion, good and bad, that becomes quite a story. The guy who confessed to the killing (Though never charged with it) got a big candlelight vigil outside the prision the night of his execution. Far more compassion for him than his victims or this kid from the accident would see.
If someone knocks my power out and burns himself trying to steal the power lines, I'll say he got what he deserved. If he kills someone else with his actions, THERE will be where my compassion is directed. In the appropriate direction only.
I never know who it is exactly that people are talking about, unless they are named.Dauntless said:
But I didn't see anything in LFP's post that could be thought of that way, either, and I know a lot of people misunderstand what I say/write because I don't communicate quite like most people do. :/Yeah, I started readying that hoping you were going to back some of those people up as good people, (The system is supposed to be for people who are ALMOST there) but then I guess that wasn't the subject at hand.
Well, I do know a few people that are on assistance of some type that actually need it, but unfortunately most of those that I know either don't need it at all, or wouldn't need it if they cared to participate in society productively in some way. And most of those that I know that do need it and don't have it can't get it because the rules prevent them from getting it due to some technicality, while those above that don't need it can still get it. Most often I suspect they get it by lying and falsifying documentation, and the others can't get it because they tell the complete truth.
So it is difficult for me to provide examples of people that are on it that are working towards not being on it, but easy to provide examples of those that either can't get it, or those that "shouldn't" have it (because they don't need it as they already have enough money/etc to live on, or because they should be able to easily get a job and earn that money instead of having it as handouts).
Of course, most people I have no idea of their circumstances at all, except what little I see (like those doing the (strongly suspected) fraudulent returns, or those attempting to steal from us, or those that did steal from my home after the fire). So I can't say *why* they do what they do. But there are better (well, more ethical) ways to live.
I suspect one problem is that whiel it is not that hard to get a job of some type, it may not pay well enough to live from, or not enough hours, and have such an irregular schedule that it's very difficult or impossible to work a second or third job to get the rest of what one needs to survive. Yet, because of having the job in the first place, one may make enough money to not be able to get enough assistance to live on (in combination with the job's money), if one wishes to also remain independent and not live in a communal home with many people one does not even know (or care to, for whatever reasons, such as the drug deals and violence that sometimes happen in such places).
That has been a part of my own difficulties in getting assistance those times I have needed it. The other part was that for a while here, when I most needed it, I could not get it because I was a single caucasian male with no human dependents. I'm not the only person I know who had that problem, either.
Also, it's not too hard to get assistance without a permanent address (they don't really seem to check whatever address is given, based on the mail I've gotten for others, and what some poeple on assistance have said to me), but it is apparently pretty hard to get a job without one, because many (most?) employers do actually verify that stuff (perhaps they are required to?). (other than the "illegal" cash-under-the-table kind that would get you and the employer in trouble with the IRS if they found out).
And yes, at least some of them do, and I suspect most do...A few times, (I guess 4-5 years ago now? when I was down to mabye 5-10 hours a week at most until they fired the manager) I've started to go to some of those giveaways when I was in such need, and ended up not sticking around because of the way some people acted--I was afraid to stay there long enough to get anything.
I also used to know a couple volunteers at food banks, who sometimes brought me and others things that the foodbank couldn't give away enough of before it would rot. One eventually quit because she couldn't handle the stress of how people acted towards those who were trying to help them (especially the ungratefulness and the expectation of more than was reasonable or fair with so many "in need" there). I haven't seen either of them in years now.
EDIT: added: I also meant ot mention that every so often I am approached by someone inside a grocery store who volunteers to buy some of my food with his/her EBT card, if I will then pay them cash for at least half of the value. Usually they are the "freaked out" type, that look seriously like they are late for their next drug fix, sweating (even though it's pretty cold in these places) shaking, nervous, about to lash out any moment, etc. Like my older sister used to look when she was on various drugs and was begging mom for money on a pretext because she'd run out and couldn't buy her next fix and was desperate.
Occasionally they seem normal...but every time I ask them why they need the cash, what it's for, they just freak out and go try to find someone else; sometimes they leave the store and sometimes not. If they could tell me why, and it was believable, that would be one thing. but if they are so scared that they have to run off instead of talking about it, I expect it isn't something they "should" be doing with that assistance that has been given them to help them get food and necessities. And it upsets me that many people *can* do that and get away with it, when I couldn't even get the help when i really did need it.
liveforphysics
100 TW
[youtube]QPKKQnijnsM[/youtube]
John in CR
100 TW
That puts things in perspective that most can understand. How do we fix it though?
I'd like to see that same reality chart for 2007 vs now to see the accuracy of my firm belief that the 2008 crash resulted in a tremendous consolidation of wealth in favor of the top 1% with the other top 4% benefiting too, all at the expense of the middle and upper middle class who were robbed of trillions in wealth.
I'd like to see that same reality chart for 2007 vs now to see the accuracy of my firm belief that the 2008 crash resulted in a tremendous consolidation of wealth in favor of the top 1% with the other top 4% benefiting too, all at the expense of the middle and upper middle class who were robbed of trillions in wealth.
Dauntless
100 TW
Amberwolf said:I never know who it is exactly that people are talking about, unless they are named.
And yet you were able to identify him for yourself as the one easily enough. From his post.
Whether it's the foodbanks or Tammany Hall passing out coal, 'Public Assistance' is supposed to patch the cracks, NOT carry people. The troublemakers are those who refuse to accept that. The woman working at the convenience store talked of getting the job after crying all night over something her daughter had said. She'd had a parttime job until the first of the two children came, even after the divorce she'd gotten by on child support, section 8 housing and other welfare, food banks, etc. Always complaining of her lousy life, griping at her ex-husband over how bad her old car was getting and what HE was supposed to do about it.
Then her junior high school daughter asked why there wasn't a welfare office that was supposed to give her a car. It was a moment of clarity not just for what she'd become, but what she was raising her daughter to be. Once the kids were at school she ran around looking for every help wanted sign she could find, winding up with the job at the convenience store. Listening to welfare moms complaining about all that they're NOT being given on one side of the counter, while on the other side the young coworker who had an accident and is a single mom says "I'm not signing up for WIC and turning into one of THOSE women, like my Mom."
flathill said:
That's really not true. That's like saying water is unlimited, clean air is unlimited, food is unlimited. (But Utopists see them that way.) It takes a lot to generate the compassion. I've been a volunteer social worker, it's a big effort. The professionals are desperate to get people down there to help them, as the clientele is so demanding. It takes more more MORE compassion, more than they have to give. The clientele themselves often have no compassion, hence the need for security at food banks, where these people should be HAPPY that others do things for them.
The name I was trying to remember is François Marie Charles Fourier. Not content to live on the fortune his father left him, Fourier was forced to work, distracting him from his thoughts and his travel, though he discovered he could switch jobs to enable him to travel under the guise of commerce and his job, decrying the demands of getting his work done, etc. Happily, not all his time at work was "Wasted" on his duties, he bragged of how much research into his socialist views he got done on the job when no one was looking.
Hence the basic premise of a Fourier "Phanlax" was that this community was to allow everyone to lay about and be lazy while everyone else worked to support them. (Go ahead and reread that to be sure you understand.) Fourier followers such as Henry David Thoreau and Nathaniel Hawthorne found it difficult to reconcile the ongoing efforts to recruit SOMEONE who'd keep working as the ever growing numbers found farming too hard and just wanted to daydream. I don't remember the numbers but it might have been 6,000 identified Phanlaxes in the mid 19th century, only a few started by his direct followers but all inspired by him. Marx was seriously explaining his mentor Fourier in his work, (Leaving out the parts about mandatory homosexuality and societal "Fairies" as Fourier called them to enforce it because homosexual frustration causes supernovas and other celestial imbalances) even after the Fourier movement in France got itself killed off in revolts. (See, you're supposed to get SOMEONE ELSE to fight the revolts while you daydream of the perfect world.)
But whether it's in the form of well known "Living Ghost towns" such as Utopia, Ohio, or the failed Reunion, Texas colony becoming part of Dallas, the Fourier legacy lives on in the form of not just the Reunion Tower, (Almost Freudian, they've accidently reinserted what Marx left out) but in the corrupt welfare system, about to collapse under its' own weight, that nevertheless provides thousands with the spare time to steal copper, etc., in pursuit of their dreams.
Dang, I'm so good at incorporating everyone's additional ideas into the original concept.
liveforphysics
100 TW
flathill said:
It's even better than just being unlimited and weightless, it grows and spreads as you practice it.
I gave ALL of my money away, including all savings/retirement directly to anyone who looked hungry.
Money is an inanimate human construct. Money is not capable of appreciating Love or even having awareness of being Loved.
Conquer the delusion of a need for Love of money. It is it's own instantaneous priceless reward beyond the scope of anything money can offer.
All empires fall.
What sort of foundation stability does a country have that finds itself in a situation where 1% of the population has hoarded and amassed more resources than 80% of the population?
It's like playing the game Jenga, you can keep taking from the bottom and stacking on top for a while, but no matter how carefully you do it, the outcome is pre-determined.
If you are forced to still use money you should be spending it all as fast a possible helping others. This doesn't mean you have to give it to them directly but that is one way. I never give the needy money only things. Right now I can't escape money. I don't like money but I do link things. Things require money for the most part. That doesn't mean I'm materialistic, but I guess it does in the strictest sense. I want materials to make things. You can either make money or make sense. Right now I make money but I make no sense. I AM wastefully materialistic because of the way I have been programmed by the machine, but what makes humans special is our ability to create things. I don't feel guilty for wanting things as long as I'm not be wasteful, but I want the latest cell phone, the highest tech possible. Lighter faster stronger more. More efficient. Never cheaper. The absolute best so I/we will never need to upgrade. Permaculture. The best for everyone. All custom.
There will be a end game where my cell phone can't get any better. My eyes won't see the higher res screen. My ears won't hear the higher res audio. I won't want it any thinner. The battery will be charged with energy harvesting and never run out. It will be unbreakable and waterproof. It will have no connectors or buttons. There will be no processor or memory on board to upgrade. Consumerism will end when we have designed everything perfectly in harmony with ourselves and nature
Right now the world is not designed for humans. It is designed to maximize profit. I use money as fast as possible to get to the end of this sill game faster. The more they slow us down the longer we will be wasteful. If we are wasteful for too long we will destroy our home planet. As soon as any the "poor" can choose to be totally self sufficient both energy and food wise we will have succeeded. This is not a insert politics here all I care about is me dream. Its is just about have the choice to leave the grid system and do no harm
If you have escaped the money construct you are a better human than me.
---
Fuller writes, "The drive to make money is inherently entropic, for it seeks to monopolize order while leaving un-cope-with-able disorder to overwhelm others" (276). Entropy also works on the assumption that there is not enough wealth to go around, that there "exists a lethal inadequacy of life support on our planet," a theory founded by Thomas Malthus in 1810 after he was the first person to analyze the world's vital and economic statistics. His theory suggests that it is either you or me who will survive but there is not enough for both of us. The entropic character also fits with Darwin's theory that the survival of the fittest is the rule of evolution, therefore one better get as much as one can before your sister or brother beats you to it.
Fossil fuels play into these entropic theories since there is a limited supply on the earth. Fuller considers them to be "nature's own savings account, deposited in our "Earth Bank" and not be be stolen by exploiters" (223).
The Sun does not make us pay for the energy the Earth imports. It wants to us succeed in the cosmic scheme by using what Fuller calls "cosmic costing accounts." Cosmic accounting can ever go bankrupt, since the sun is always shining, accept when humans make the mistake of withdrawing our critical "capital" assets as we are doing presently with fossil fuels. So one can see how we are living in a bankrupt state of affairs, wasting our fossil fuels and burning fusion and fission nuclear energy which Fuller says is "burning our terrestrial production equipment," when we should be living syntropically by the sunlight being imported to Earth.
When we begin living in a syntropic way on a "cosmic-energy wealth income" by wind, wave, and solar power, big businesses will see no way for putting a meter on these forms of energy to run their bureaucracies and war machines.
There will be a end game where my cell phone can't get any better. My eyes won't see the higher res screen. My ears won't hear the higher res audio. I won't want it any thinner. The battery will be charged with energy harvesting and never run out. It will be unbreakable and waterproof. It will have no connectors or buttons. There will be no processor or memory on board to upgrade. Consumerism will end when we have designed everything perfectly in harmony with ourselves and nature
Right now the world is not designed for humans. It is designed to maximize profit. I use money as fast as possible to get to the end of this sill game faster. The more they slow us down the longer we will be wasteful. If we are wasteful for too long we will destroy our home planet. As soon as any the "poor" can choose to be totally self sufficient both energy and food wise we will have succeeded. This is not a insert politics here all I care about is me dream. Its is just about have the choice to leave the grid system and do no harm
If you have escaped the money construct you are a better human than me.
---
Fuller writes, "The drive to make money is inherently entropic, for it seeks to monopolize order while leaving un-cope-with-able disorder to overwhelm others" (276). Entropy also works on the assumption that there is not enough wealth to go around, that there "exists a lethal inadequacy of life support on our planet," a theory founded by Thomas Malthus in 1810 after he was the first person to analyze the world's vital and economic statistics. His theory suggests that it is either you or me who will survive but there is not enough for both of us. The entropic character also fits with Darwin's theory that the survival of the fittest is the rule of evolution, therefore one better get as much as one can before your sister or brother beats you to it.
Fossil fuels play into these entropic theories since there is a limited supply on the earth. Fuller considers them to be "nature's own savings account, deposited in our "Earth Bank" and not be be stolen by exploiters" (223).
The Sun does not make us pay for the energy the Earth imports. It wants to us succeed in the cosmic scheme by using what Fuller calls "cosmic costing accounts." Cosmic accounting can ever go bankrupt, since the sun is always shining, accept when humans make the mistake of withdrawing our critical "capital" assets as we are doing presently with fossil fuels. So one can see how we are living in a bankrupt state of affairs, wasting our fossil fuels and burning fusion and fission nuclear energy which Fuller says is "burning our terrestrial production equipment," when we should be living syntropically by the sunlight being imported to Earth.
When we begin living in a syntropic way on a "cosmic-energy wealth income" by wind, wave, and solar power, big businesses will see no way for putting a meter on these forms of energy to run their bureaucracies and war machines.
No, I simply assumed that if you werent' referring to my post above his, then since you said "previous poster" that since his was the immediately-previous post to yours, it must be the one you mean then (I make a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily even close, unfortunately). I sitll don't see what you referred to, though. But I'm often unable to comprehend what someone actually means in what they are saying/writing as I don't interpret things the same way most do.Dauntless said:
If I'm still not correct I guess it doesn't matter, as none of my questions/comments about this part is really relevant to the topic at hand, but I just wanted you to understand.
Dauntless
100 TW
The problem with that video and graph is I can find them with dramatically different numbers for the distributions, all of which would claim the others are wrong, yours included. net worth of all U.S. households, for example, the Wall Street Journal says $80.7 trillion. (I wonder what possessed him to say $54 trillion in 2009 when it was in fact over $60 trillion, other than his lack of interest in the truth.) One thing you can depend on, when someone makes a video like that, they're lying. They make up their numbers as they go. If you remember the famous dishonest EMail that said all these things about each and every American being so much richer than the rest of the world, only to be proven way, way over the top in its' exaggerations. Basically, what I feel was the most important lie in that video was when he pretended that people always say it's always a bigger imbalance than people think, when it's been extensively studied that people are surprised to find that we're CLOSER to a balance than they realized. Of course the people who watch those videos unquestioningly don't care that they're being lied to, it's the lies they like to hear. But in a country where poverty means you own a car, a washer/dryer, a television and a celphone, you don't get to talk about 20% of the country having only pocketchange to their name. Maybe THAT is where the missing $7-10 trillion dollars got left out. That and the value of all that stolen copper that of course they don't admit they have. (Keeping the original subject matter included in the message drift.)
I have relatives who are in that pocket change bottom for wealth. That only refers to savings, investments, retirement money. But only only do those relatives do fairly well, they beg from the more well to do in the family. Want a new car or a house? Time to pass the hat. Yet STILL they accumulate nothing, they just gotta spend. So they appear destitute in that video as a married couple taking home as much as $1,000/week after taxes.
The one family has the husband turning 60, the wife right behind. She is adamant in her refusal to save for retirement. As far as she is concerned she's going to just keep holding out her hand, even though she's already witnessed that the soft touches of the family, myself included, are actually pinched by current events and don't have anything for her. There is your REAL inequity, but it's not so sexy as finger pointing at some for managing what they have.
A.Kingston Quiggin said:
I'm thinking you fall into the same trap with your graph and your video. You can make an argument about income inequality, but do you have any idea what it is?
Is it the woman I know who finished law school and turned down a big money job to take no so bad from a nonprofit? Is it that the guy who took the job she'd been offered and is making more than her? (Aren't the tearyeyed feminists having a field with THAT.)
But indeed can you actually explain what this thing, this "Wealthy Inequality," really MEANS? Does it mean that some can get NO financial aid to send their kids to college, while others can send their kids for free? Does it mean that some are forced to bear the weight of EVERYTHING, all the relatives who come holding out their hand, while goofballs keep demanding more and more taxes on them? I just see things like that video that prove to me that people couldn't possibly know what it means when they talk about it nonstop.
Compassion is only light and airy when you DON'T practice it. Anything is easy when you don't actually do it. I remember when I was running around with the clothesmobile for the Alliance for the Mentally Ill (As a VOLUNTEER) and there were people acting like it was such an easy thing to do. Not doing things themselves leaves some people a lot of time to dream up and recite their opinions. I remember a few decades back Gerry Brown was talking about how easy it is to be a teacher, him having never been one. Or ANYTHING that wasn't elected.
http://ink361.com/app/users/ig-229612947/thefarsidecomic/photos
Dauntless
100 TW
amberwolf said:
Just the usual of the blaming society for people when it's people who are to blame for society.
liveforphysics said:
All this about the evils of deliberately not being a Utopia in response to copper thieves. But of course subsidizing people to go out and cause trouble is indeed a corruption that society will collapse under. But that's the fault of PEOPLE. Blaming society is like blaming the air for being polluted.
amberwolf said:
Oh come on, let Comrade Luke work it in. The message drift is usually what we have the most fun with.
Different Quiggin, but oh so relevant.
http://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Economics-Ideas-Still-among/dp/0691154546/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408774965&sr=8-1&keywords=quiggin
