This is my thought out setup, what woud you change?

[Observator]

Hello. I'm in the process of compiling all my needs for a Ebike build. I thought I'd write it up and ask for some feedback. I plan on using the bike mainly as point A to point B "for the fun of it" type thing. My expectation's performance wise would be roughly 25 mph and enough max range to never use it (would very rarely if ever need more than 10-15 miles). Enough rambling here comes the parts list!

Rare mounted 500/1000 watt MAC wound to "8T"
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=40&product_id=52

9 FET infinion controler
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=79

Full twist throttle
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41&product_id=94

12s4p Lipo pack ~44 VDC (8x Turnigy 5000mAh 6S 20C Lipo Pack)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9176__Turnigy_5000mAh_6S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html

2x Methods LVC/HVC parallel boards (one on each "20ah pack")
http://www.methtek.com/2011/11/12/lvchvcparallel-boards-10/

Cycle Analyst CA-DPS V2.3
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=103

This show's how i intend do connect it all:

That's what i have so far, what would you have done differently?

 

[DAND214]

Changes I see would be a halftwist than a full twist.

Looks like you will need a charger.

Good choice on the Mac 8t great motor.

You also might want a torque arm or two.

Sounds good to me. Oh, loooks like you can get 30+ miles out of that pack if not WOT all the time.

Dan

 

[Observator]

I am on the lookout for a suitable charger, thought I'd make an inquiry about that in the battery forum.

Torque arms will be used, forgot to mention that (already ordered a set from Doc)

Why would you opt for a half twist?

 

[Ykick]

One thing I suggest is add your general location if only the country of residence.

Throttles are one of those: "ask 10 different people, you will get 10 different responses". More like 3 when it comes to throttles but you see the point?

I prefer thumb throttles. Much less likely to go WOT when pushing and/or handling the bike. And, 35 years of m/c twist throttles has me bored me to death.

Cool thing about RC Lipoly is the potential for 2C charge rates, or more, if you're up for it. Nice to have charging completed in about an hour.

If you haven't done so already, learn about tires and bike repair/maintenance.

 

[Observator]

I guess the throttle ultimately comes down to personal preference, I'll ponder it a bit more.

I edited my profile to show my location.

As bike maintenance goes, i actually stumbled upon Ebikes while renovating an old racer, so I've started the "bike repairman" learning adventure already. Good advice though, more to it than one would expect.

 

[melodious]

One throttle not mentioned is one that isn't hand/wrist activated. Not sure what voltages your running, but if it's 48V or less, an option is a THUN torque sensor (or it's cheaper RPM-based sibling, the PAS sensor). Though at 60V and above, you really really want complete control of your initial speeds, then you have use hand/thumb throttles.

 

[DAND214]

As for the throttle it depends on your shifters. If you have twist shifters you will need a thumb. If there trigger the twist works great.

As cheap as Paul charges get a spare or get A COUPLE OF WHAT YOU DECIDE ON. THROTTLES ARE ONE THING THAT HAS MORE PROBLEMS THAN OTHERS.

Reason for half twist is it is harder to pull the throttle off in your hand when least expected. There are lots of posts on what happens when yopu yank the throttle off in your hand by accident.

Also ask for the upgraded MAC wiring and new clutch if possible.

Dan

 

[circuit]

Dude, use a decent BMS, please. There are many cheap ones over the web.
Because I'm tired of reading stories about lipo fires.

 

[Bluefang]

Lipo fires are kinda a thing of the past, specially with cared for Lipo packs. Best bet for a 12S battery is to get something like a Hyperion 1420i that can charge 12S at 550W, make sure its a smart charger that wont work if even something small is wrong. They are on ebay for ~$150 delivered and can be setup to ensure long lasting perfectly balanced batteries. Using a Cycle analyst get the V3 version with a programing cable and you will never have to worry about a thing. I have sold a few built e-bikes with Hyperions in the last few years and both keep in contact with me about the bikes(i msg/email them) and one wore out the second hand batteries i sold the bike with so he bought a new pack.

Fires happen with over charging or wires rubbing thru and shorting. Make sure to tie up your wiring with cable sleeves or electrical tap. I second the half twist throttles for hall throttles too, or thumb if your willing to lubricate it regularly.

 

[Observator]

Dude, use a decent BMS, please. There are many cheap ones over the web.
Because I'm tired of reading stories about lipo fires.

What BMS would you suggest? What can it do that Methods LVC/HVC boards lack?

 

[Observator]

Lipo fires are kinda a thing of the past, specially with cared for Lipo packs. Best bet for a 12S battery is to get something like a Hyperion 1420i that can charge 12S at 550W, make sure its a smart charger that wont work if even something small is wrong. They are on ebay for ~$150 delivered and can be setup to ensure long lasting perfectly balanced batteries. Using a Cycle analyst get the V3 version with a programing cable and you will never have to worry about a thing. I have sold a few built e-bikes with Hyperions in the last few years and both keep in contact with me about the bikes(i msg/email them) and one wore out the second hand batteries i sold the bike with so he bought a new pack.

Fires happen with over charging or wires rubbing thru and shorting. Make sure to tie up your wiring with cable sleeves or electrical tap. I second the half twist throttles for hall throttles too, or thumb if your willing to lubricate it regularly.

I've been looking at both the Hyperion and the iChargers. I have my mind set on always balance charging, so the Hyperion 1420i or iCharger 306B (1000 watts 6s charger). What i cant seem to find is a siutible power supply, could you recommend one?

 

[Observator]

As for the throttle it depends on your shifters. If you have twist shifters you will need a thumb. If there trigger the twist works great.

As cheap as Paul charges get a spare or get A COUPLE OF WHAT YOU DECIDE ON. THROTTLES ARE ONE THING THAT HAS MORE PROBLEMS THAN OTHERS.

Reason for half twist is it is harder to pull the throttle off in your hand when least expected. There are lots of posts on what happens when yopu yank the throttle off in your hand by accident.

Also ask for the upgraded MAC wiring and new clutch if possible.

Dan

What would have been changed in the wiring? I did opt for the addition of a wire in temp sensor, that was offered at an additional 15USD.

Easier to request if i know what I'm asking for. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond!

 

[circuit]

Lipo fires are kinda a thing of the past, specially with cared for Lipo packs.

Haha, good one. Especially that last part.

What BMS would you suggest?

For example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMS-PCB-for-48V-16S-LiFePO4-Battery-Pack-50A-10A-limit-With-Balance-Function-/150978281516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232701c02c%C2%A0
This is just a first link I've found, I'm sure there are a lot cheaper ones.

What can it do that Methods LVC/HVC boards lack?

BMS will balance your cells, so you will not have to do that manually time to time. No user intervention = no possibility of mistakes made.
Also the BMS will be smaller and lighter. Take the lowest current rated (cheaper) BMS (like 10, 20 amps), wire it to controller's thin B+ wire, and wire the thick controller power wires directly to the battery (just don't forget the fuse). This way you will have no additional power dissipation and battery will stay perfectly protected.

 

[Observator]

For example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMS-PCB-for-48V-16S-LiFePO4-Battery-Pack-50A-10A-limit-With-Balance-Function-/150978281516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232701c02c%C2%A0
This is just a first link I've found, I'm sure there are a lot cheaper ones.

That link is for a 16s LifePO4 battery. I intend to use 12s Lipo.

 

[circuit]

For example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMS-PCB-for-48V-16S-LiFePO4-Battery-Pack-50A-10A-limit-With-Balance-Function-/150978281516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232701c02c%C2%A0
This is just a first link I've found, I'm sure there are a lot cheaper ones.

That link is for a 16s LifePO4 battery. I intend to use 12s Lipo.

As I said, this is a first link from search. Whatever the cell count, there are many models. I'm not used to spoon-feeding, sorry.

 

[Bluefang]

Get the 12s hyperion so you don't have to split the packs to charge, then use http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24V-23A-600W-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-/321013380360?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item4abde37508 for supply. I have got 2 of these recently

I cant really recommend 12V chargers just search ebay for 12V psu, with Methods HVC/LVC you will have no problems if your balance charging every night, they also make it easier and safer wiring your pack. Just make sure to cover all your free slots with electrical tap/silicon

 

[Observator]

As I said, this is a first link from search. Whatever the cell count, there are many models. I'm not used to spoon-feeding, sorry.[/quote]

I was by no means asking you to do the work for me, I am still in the learning phase trying to figure out what i need and what i need it to do. You advocated using a bms instead of a LVC/HVC and I made the assumption that you might be running something similar to my planed setup, and could recommend what you're using. Searching ebay and finding a BMS is one thing, having a "this worked for me" advice from someone not affiliated with the product is something else.

I don't want to come of as ungrateful, I am very happy people here are taking their time to address my questions, however linking to a product that will not work with what I'm intending to use is added confusion i don't need.

 

[Ykick]

There are some users who are best relegated to your ignore list. Not gonna name names but you get the idea....

I would never, ever, run a 24/7 active BMS on RC Lipoly. My reason is that it's too much risk of draining the pack if/when left unattended. When you drain RC Lipoly below a certain threshold not only does the cell often become ruined the pouch tends to puff or swell, this can result in shorting tabs and ensuing sparks and stuff. Not a good thing when those tabs are connected to bags/pouches of highly flammable solvent.

One domestic source I use when I don't feel like waiting for China shipments and/or worry about warranty issues is EPBuddy. They have a good selection of Chargers, power supplies, meters and other tools and related. Decent prices, good service, domestic shipping, etc.

Good luck!

 

[circuit]

I was by no means asking you to do the work for me, I am still in the learning phase trying to figure out what i need and what i need it to do. You advocated using a bms instead of a LVC/HVC and I made the assumption that you might be running something similar to my planed setup, and could recommend what you're using. Searching ebay and finding a BMS is one thing, having a "this worked for me" advice from someone not affiliated with the product is something else.

I don't want to come of as ungrateful, I am very happy people here are taking their time to address my questions, however linking to a product that will not work with what I'm intending to use is added confusion i don't need.

Sorry for being rude, I am just too tired of repeating myself over and over again.
I see that you are new to this and don't have a lot of knowledge or field experience. I am trying to protect you from 'no bms' crowd, just like one below. Let's do it this way: just google for some BMS systems for required cell count and chemistry and post links here. Then it will be easier to help by pointing to what to try and what to run from.

There are some users who are best relegated to your ignore list. Not gonna name names but you get the idea....

I would never, ever, run a 24/7 active BMS on RC Lipoly. My reason is that it's too much risk of draining the pack if/when left unattended. When you drain RC Lipoly below a certain threshold not only does the cell often become ruined the pouch tends to puff or swell, this can result in shorting tabs and ensuing sparks and stuff. Not a good thing when those tabs are connected to bags/pouches of highly flammable solvent.

That's your opinion. I have mine, too. Don't know your reasons, but as you can see I am very intimately involved with BMS, motor controller, vehicle management and similar system development. So I do know a thing or two about BMS, battery cells and how they work. Did many environmentally controlled tests with cycling, overcharging, overdischarging, undertemperature, overtemperature, etc. Also I owned a couple of electric vehicles without BMS and I have a very clear picture of what effort from user that requires to keep it going and how likely is cell damage duo to a very simple and often strange mistakes.
To continue on this 'ignore list', your statement about draining the pack is not correct. This can only happen with very crappy system, very small cells and only if left unattended for a very long time. Also, an overdischarged cell will not catch fire, because there is no energy left to start or sustain it. I've seen some overdischarged and even negatively charged cells that short out internally due to negative overvoltage. No fire. Not even warm.
The only thing user must do before charging is to make sure that no cell is far below LVC, because this is what often causes fires. This applies to any configuration, let it be with or without BMS. Unfortunately a lot more frequent fire reason is bad wiring, done by amateur users. And after these recommendations by some folks on the forums, I see one more rising.
So rethink your ignore list.

 

[motomech]

I've been running 12S4P for a couple years now with just the simplest of systems with no problems.
And we are talking less than $400, charger and everything!

4)Turngey 6S 5000mAh 20C bricks-$200
1)Thunder 1220i-$89;



1) Sever power supply-$15



The 'heart of the wiring is this charging adapter;



It's 14 ga. going into 12ga. and then I stay with 12 ga. for everything thing else(easy to solder the 4 m/m bullets).
I series 2) 6S bricks to 12S and then use the charging adapter to parallel to 10Ah, or 15 Ah. The extra connectors are used for bulk charging and to connect my Ebike CA lights
I use 2 Battery medics for checking cell voltages and balancing.
The Cycle Analyst provides the first Low Voltage Cut-off and my controller has the final LVC.
Super simple and inexpensive, nothing else is really needed for 12S, no BMS, no pre-charge resister, no high power switchs, no permemat joining of balance taps, etc. That's the beauty of using 12S.
But...my pack is "loose", I can take it out of the bag if I want to, but to tell the truth, the Turngey's have been so good, I rarely have to balance anything(I do cycle them several times when new).

 

[23skidoo]

I would also think you may have twice the batteries in terms of range you want.

Simplify. I have no use for a bms. I balance charge each time and cautiously review the voltage of each cell at start of charge. If you have a bad parallel connection, it can be hard to recognize because the bike will run normally.

Bad connections are part of life, and it's the parallel connection which is the hazard.

The lipos I've puffed have been from physical damage. Put them in a solid box. I charge in my fireplace but have never had smoke or fire. I respect the voltage limits. set the LVC conservatively because the cells diverge in voltage when they get low. If you run a discharge cycle with your charger, you can figure out what the total pack voltage is when the first cell is low. Add a safety margin to that.

If you have a battery which is generous in capacity, the CA is optional. You'll learn each time you charge how much you've drained the pack.

Obviously there are many ways to do this. The wrong person as usual is the one who is dogmatic.

 

[wesnewell]

motomech went into much more detail than I would have, but I agree. All you really need to run 12s4p is the lipo, which you can interconnect the power leads using the connectors that come on them. I've4 never used a bms with lipo and never would. Waste of money imo and just something else to fail and give you a false sense of security. Ditto for the CA or any watt meter fro that matter. RC lipo has a nice voltage curve that is easy to monitor with a simply volt meter like this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-Digital-Voltmeter-DC-15V-To-120V-Red-Led-Voltage-Digital-Panel-Meter-/170846310527
And although not required for 12s it's a good idea to add a precharge resistor circuit. It will save your connectors from pitting and is requirement imo if you ever want to got to a higher voltage.
View attachment 1
Typical lipo wiring

 

[Observator]

Sorry for being rude, I am just too tired of repeating myself over and over again.
I see that you are new to this and don't have a lot of knowledge or field experience. I am trying to protect you from 'no bms' crowd, just like one below. Let's do it this way: just google for some BMS systems for required cell count and chemistry and post links here. Then it will be easier to help by pointing to what to try and what to run from.

I can understand the feeling of frustration, and i appreciate that your taking the time despite the frustration created by repeating one self.
That said the whole BMS or no BMS debate sure has become very infected, i will for the time being stay out of it until i have experience of my own.
Thank you for the offer of helping weed out what is legit and what is not in the BMS jungle, When/if the time comes I'll drop you a line.

 

[Observator]

I've been running 12S4P for a couple years now with just the simplest of systems with no problems.
And we are talking less than $400, charger and everything!

4)Turngey 6S 5000mAh 20C bricks-$200
1)Thunder 1220i-$89;

Nice setup from the "KISS" point of view, however I'm much to big of a control freak to not have a charger with integrated balancing.

 

[Observator]

The lipos I've puffed have been from physical damage. Put them in a solid box. I charge in my fireplace but have never had smoke or fire. I respect the voltage limits. set the LVC conservatively because the cells diverge in voltage when they get low. If you run a discharge cycle with your charger, you can figure out what the total pack voltage is when the first cell is low. Add a safety margin to that.

Very clever way of choosing LVC setting, hadn't thought of that!