Thuds 1st build

[Thud]

Hello all,
I guess this is my official introduction, I have been lurking around & posting a little in a couple threads. This is my 1st foray building an electric bicycle. I will add that I took the long way Getting here.
summery:
During the Gas price hikes a year ago, I got the bug to build an electric motorcycle. I drew a plan & sent it to a buddy in chicago who linked me to Eric peltzer's project & a week or so later to Matt S. recumbent build. I had already bought a conversion kit from Cloud electric But was blown away by what was going on here. I had often wondered if the lil' outrunners could be scaled up to power a motorcycle. Turns out they were already there.Things started to progress but was haulted by a sudden death in the family. Life changed but I am getting the maker in me back on track.

I decided to build a small test mule to try some ideas out on. The PK ripper may have had something to do with it I already had a pile of bikes rusting behind an outbuilding.
the original idea was to build the cheapest (dollar wise) rc bike & still have some performance. After watching all the inventory get swallowed at hobby city I have abandond the cheapest mind set & am indulging myself. Enough history.
The bike:
Pacific bmx (a $90 walmart bike 10 years ago)
wheels-skyway tuffs(modifed to accept disc brakes & a #35 drive chain)
kenda kontact tires
tektro manual disc brake calipers (e-bay) magura rotors 160mm
power package: small turnigy 50-65 380kv peak wattage 1850
8s 3p Lipo batts 15Ah
custom designed 2 speed reduction transmision
Gates gt2 primary reduction 3.2-1
low range on tranny reduction 1.86-1
high range reduction 1.15-1
#35 final drive reductio 5.4-1
calculate speed at battery nominal- low gear 20.8
high gear 33.6
I fear I may still be overgeared. The motor just looks too small to pull this rig at 33 mph.
here is the bike after a paint job & the fab work

flat tire! i dont have 2 miles on the damm thing & i am already changing tires

rear brake detail. modified rack & new mounts welded to frame. very rigid

Shoe horn fit. shifting arm visable.yes that hub is threaded to accept a freewheel

plenty of room for the cranks but I am still contemplating removing the hub & really thining it down.

I will trim the shaft latter, you can see the motor at the very bottom. Chains are very close fitting. I will fabricate guides for both to keep them from arguing.

a look at the 2nd tranny that was built. a miscalculation had the chain length wrong & they were slappy to say the least. this unit runs 100% quieter. It is no hub motor but prolly typical of any unit using chains in the secondary reduction. I have some 1/8"t lexan to fab covers with that should dampen the chain noise further.

this is the rear brake adaptor. it threads onto the "flop" side of the flip flop rear wheel. anodised at home.
List of things to do:
fab a battery box to fit the frame triangle, anodise the tranny parts for the bling factor.
add a rear fender to keep the dirt out of the motor. (I live on a dirt road)
I will be shifting with standard thumb shifters set up in a pull pull senario. havent decided to canablize the magura throttle or fab a trigger for the servo driver. I did wind a spring so the servo driver is self closing. I just wish i could find a pot that onlly cranked 60 deg. as opposed to 110.
Over all I am pleased with the project. Its nice to get out from behind the desk & make somehting again.
Here is a link to my photobucket album-more pics of the bike & anodizing & general crap.
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/tmoto/bicycles/?start=0
I have many plans for the next build. It will be on a larger platform, Haven't decided if it will be my specilized (old rock hopper) mt bike or another salvage restore fron the grave yard out back. Then again, I have enough composite experiance to make a carbon framed concept bike also.The goal is a reasonable transport I can make the (24 mile 1-way) trip to work a couple times a week. I am 46 years old & prolly look silly on that bmx. I am curently employed as a design/engineer in the furniture/architechual industry. I got there as a failed motocross racer. Although I was honored to be selected to reprsent the USA in a vintage race challange aganst Canada held at the Walton National track in Ottowa in 2003. It was a rain out, but we stomped them at the re-match on home soil in Portland MI. later that year.

Also I want to give props to Miles,recumpence,grinhill,ggoodrum(spelling?)aussiejester, hell every one on the forum has helped me technicly or inspierationaly as I have read back through the archives so.... Thank You, Every one. I hope to be able to contribute to the group.

 

[liveforphysics]

OMG!

I'm loving your tranny! Very nice work on the whole bike!

I would love to see some upskirt shots on that tranny! Did you make your own dog hubs for the gears? Does one set ride on a sprague clutch?

 

[etard]

Thud,
You are the man!! Awesome to have your talents here!! How hard is the DIY anodizing? Would you be willing to make and sell some of those disc brake adapters? I have been eyeballing the Skyways on eBay but couldn't figure out how to convert to disc brakes. I really like what you have done here. So you have taken it for a test ride? I'm not sure from your post if you had. Can't wait to see what you come up with next. Oh and you can't just drop a completed build on us, you have to string us along for a few months while you fab and fit every single piece. :wink:

Luke,
check out his posts in the 2 speed Tranny thread and there are alotta pics in the photobucket pages.

 

[Thud]

Thanks LFP.
This is the revised tranny I showed in the 2 speed discusion thread. I modified #25 sprockets for the build. no sprag's involved,But there will be if it becomes a 3 speed. All parts were hand made or modifed by yours truly. I have a lot of experiance on constant mesh transmisions. I do/did the 2 stroke lower end work for a couple local dealerships on the side. That has dried up since the 4-stroke take over. I am tearing it apart for polish & anodizing tomorrow. I will get a pic of the finished parts all laid out. Maybe a vid of the thing being assembled. Its simple plagerism shunk to fit my tiny bike.

 

[Thud]

etard-
I have pedaled it to the corner store & bunnyhopped it up & down off the curbs & back home before I hooked up the brake cables. Nothing under power yet.
speaking of power....I have been looking at as many builds as I can, But I think I may have the smallest motor used this far.
I am a mechanic & computer stupid. That said I have tried a couple bike calculators to see if the performance will be anywhere near the calculated speeds. seems I can't even spell graph!
any one care to speculate if I am over geard or not?
as for complete...my builds are never complete LOL! they are allways getting re-fitted till they are curbed.

 

[mud2005]

very cool build, I am drooling over those skyway mags with disc brakes! am also curious about home anodizing and how that 2 speed tranny works.
Thanks for sharing, as etard said, you are the man 8)

edit:

I just wish i could find a pot that onlly cranked 60 deg. as opposed to 110.

I looked for one of those a while back and couldn't find one either, let us know if you do end up finding one as it would be great to have.

 

[AussieJester]

Very nice indeed look forward to seeing more of this one!!! Best of luck with the remaining fab work

I wonder how many people were inspired to build an RC powered e-bike after seeing
Recumpence's PK Riper! :: raises hand:: im one...

KiM

 

[Miles]

It's great to have someone with your experience and abilities contributing here, Todd.

 

[Thud]

LFP wrote:I would love to see some upskirt shots on that tranny!

here it is in sequence break down. I think it should all make sence.

you can see the grub screw hole in the re-purpoused shaft coulpling
I broached for 3 splines but will make the preliminary runs with just the one
on the shaft.

sealed mini ball bearings support the shafts, the groove on the right acceses the grub on the motor pulleys

The steel shift fork now a weldment & slightly cas hardend, I opened the engagment area on the low gear. It shifts under power Up & down just fine, no loaded tests yet but i am confident.

It was very late when i cut the sprockets....I broke 2 end mills before realising the spindle was reversed..... below is a better look at the broaching on the dog hub

anodizing is in progress...slow proccess with my small set up & high part count.

E-tard. I can hook you up with the disc adapters. Let me know when you need them & I will try to not make you wait too long

 

[Grinhill]

Most excellent work, Thud. Love that 2-speed gearbox.

Regarding motor size and gearing, you will definitely be working that little fella pretty hard, but I think you will find it will pull you along at 30mph OK. It will get quite warm though. And it wont like going uphill, it will slow down noticeably. And it won't like a standing start with no pedalling.

I have used the 270Kv version of that motor with some success on 6S and 8S. Yours will probably produce more power than the 270Kv, which will help. I think the peak power I saw was arouond 1400W.

Did I see you testing with a Castle ICE 140 ESC? I'd be interested to hear how that works for you.

 

[Thud]

Grinhill,
Thank you, that was the input I was looking for. Hopfully I will get to see what she'll do this weekend.
Regarding the speed controll, it is the ICE100. I haven't pluged it into the computer yet so it is still on all the default settings.from my limited use so far it seems ok. throttle maping is a bit notchy but I expected that from my rc experiance.
I had an e-mail comunication with Mkeefer & he didn't seem to think much of it.

so what is the story on your 50 series turnigy? up in smoke? loose magnets? bricks instead of bearings? I am expecting the worst but for less than $40us I will take a chance.
I also have a pair of the 270kv units as back ups. I have rewound an outrunner or two(tiny ones) so come what may.

 

[Grinhill]

so what is the story on your 50 series turnigy? up in smoke? loose magnets?

I still have it in the parts box. It has had about half a dozen magnets reglued, bearings still OK, but I have only done a few hundred km on it. I think I would only put it on something with much lower gearing, maybe an ebike for my wife (she weighs a lot less than me!). I think I was just pushing it too hard in the setup I had, but I think it went great for a first build.

 

[Thud]

Power unit complete: finaly. Now time trim it all onto the bike & get some grinns.
Very crayola esq, its red & has a clear 3-form resin dust cover.

Gold on the pulleys. I trimmed the hub back. Total width of unit 100mm.

shift cables go here. The cutters are proping it up for the photo

drive side. I willo hold the dust cover in place with 3M VHB mntg tape.

I really have to clean the machine room. Looks like a bomb whent off in there!

 

[Miles]

8)

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thud, I am not only impressed with your engineering, the fact that you produced something like this with simple tech is just whats needed for a motorcycle-sized unit. You have shown the way! I can't think of any way to improve the lay-out, other than scaling it up to match a given application.

The unit could be machined to fit the exact components a builder settles on, and there are many ways to skin a cat. But, if you wanted to add chain-slack adjustability to a future version, I have seen rotate-able off-set bearing carriers, just a thought...

 

[Thud]

Thanks Spin,
Glad you like it. I may have mentioned somewhere already, this is a model of a design originaly drawn up for a mars-eteck motor. Here is a screen shot (thanks again Miles)

once I started thinking & overthinking this project, I thought i would scale it to one of these mid sized out-runners. I like the sugestion of eccentrics. I have used them in the past on projects. I will cast the case for this build. If you know any one looking for something like this, I am more than happy to consult & offer suggestions.

 

[mud2005]

oh man, now you've done it! now I have to get all my parts anodized so they look as cool as yours 8)
seriously though, nice work the anodizing really adds some bling to an already sweet build.

 

[Grinhill]

Thud, have you had a look at the "fitting freewheels to splined freehub" thread?

They are looking for a way to broach splines into a freewheel inner, and it looks like you may have the capability to do such a job yourself?

 

[Thud]

Grinhill,
I have posted a couple times in there, Miles is(seems)pretty certain that the area they are broaching is suitably soft enough for the operation. I have only seen the White freewheels online, so my only fear is some residual heat treating in the area may wreak havok on a broach. A single broach is way more acceptable to replace than an $1800 single pass tool. I think Luke & the boy's are on the right path & have access to all the same equipment (even better in most cases) as I.

I think it was your 2nd build that motivated me to cram my power unit in the space it is. & I really loved the battery bottles. totaly stealth. looking foward to your completion on the current build.
Todd

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thud, you are an inspiration! I am also in awe of the things that Matt has designed and made. The Etek in particular is the specific motor that I feel would most benefit from a 2-speed on a large-scooter/light-motorcycle. A 2-speed reduces amp-draw when accellerating from a stop, and increases top-speed without having to increase voltage.

If someone can afford a large 96V lithium pack and an Agni motor, I think the 2-speed might not be worth the effort or added bulk. But for a budget build using an Etek and 48V-72V of lead/acid, a 2-speed would be a HUGE benefit...

 

[recumpence]

Ahh, sctrach built goodness................

Very inspiring.

I have looked at that style tranny or one using one freewheel on one of the output sprockets (within the tranny), so the cogs can merely engage or disengage one sprocket and eliminate the possibilty of a false neutral between gears.

Anyway, just beautiful.

Matt

 

[Thud]

Update:
Utter frustration! fitting the chain onto the bike & foaming at the mouth to ride the baby.......somthing odd in the fit.....the bargain basment 65t #35 spocket from surplus center is whack. can't nest the chain into a 6" section of miscut teeth. I may grind a few out & see if it will settle in but sheeesh. what a buzz kill.

I guess I sould spend my money & save time/quit wasteing both! now I have an excuse to make the 5-1/4 adapter for an extron.
lemon aid! lemon aid! Lemon aid!
(its what you make when you get lemons another few days shot.

 

[Thud]

Oficialy an E-biker now.
hehe here is the log-
All systems on, pedal up to speed, shift into low-throttle up.....YEE HAW everything as expected. (realy quite fun) up shift-whoa this thing pulls for a toy motor! get about a mile from home in a large lit parking lot & start racing around.....FAIL!! the counter shaft sprocket spins loose (Seems I never put in the second set screw ) two cranks on the pedals to head home & FAIL!! my brand new bike chain pops a master link some how. push push push. Re-dimple the drive shaft add the correct amount of set screws.

I am off again into the darkness. Daylight savings schmavings!(this time with a cell phone & a wrench) I put a solid 5 miles on the bike shifting up & down. A couple times reasonably agresive. all systems work perfectly. shifting is effortless up down. Too dark to see the spedometer, especialy since it was home on the counter!
The bike pulls better than I had imagined. It will start from a dead stop. Never lost sync. This thing will Kill my honda spree out of the hole, & may have it on the top end also.I ground out the teeth on my goofy sprocket but the chain still slaps all over the place. I am e-baying a 219 tonight. Once I get that done I will end this thread with a video. I am pleased.

A report on the ICE 100.
Set up:
vehicle-airplane
throtle-auto calibrate
throtle responce-high
Brake-0%
cut offs:
voltage-auto lipo
current limit-100amp (very sensitive)
type cut off-soft
auto-lipo volts/cell-3.2
motor start power-medium
motor timing-low
dir. foward
pwm rate-outrunner mode
firmware ver. 2.18(beta)

I am running with 2kuf additional capacitors as recomended.
The unit worked without issue. The logging feature will be nice once I have a few runs on the unit. I can see where one of my batterys came unconected on the ride back to the house.
its apox. 45f out side tonight. The controller peaked at 90f. I drew a max 94 amps during a high gear acceleration test.
Some one slap this smile off my face.

 

[AussieJester]

Very inspiring Thud LOVE the anodising i must look into setting this up sometime myself VERY much look forward to the video mate Well
done...

KiM

 

[mwkeefer]

Thud,

Awesome... a true transmission for our bikes finally, brings tears to my eyes (reminds me of my first '69 camaro 2spd powerglide).

I too cannot wait to see the final result, very inspirational = )_

-Mike

I'm afraid to ask, how much did the "transmission" set you back?