TSDZ2 wobble and creaky pedals

[scrolltonowhere]

The locknut continues to loosen. After every few rides it gets loose enough that the motor sways from side to side a little. I have to tighten the locknut with my hand. Also, the pedals seem to creak when I put pressure on them. I don't know if this is a specific pedal issue or related to the motor. Both of these issues occur on both bikes I've converted. Does anyone have any tried and true fixes for these two issues?

 

[amberwolf]

Are the actual pedals creaking? Or is the noise from inside the main unit?

I have seen old bike frames with cracked BB shells that creak at the shell itself, *and* loosen up whatever BB hardware they have in them (even unpowered regular bike stuff) so regular tightening is required.

Sometimes the crack is very hard to see even in direct sunlight, until it is pried open by torque across the BB shell; probably along the welds to the chainstays or downtube.

 

[pedalfettal]

Suggestions:

Do the replacing oil seals with bearings mod - this'll provide more support and help reduce spindle-play.

Take the cranks off. Grease spindle square interfaces. Lightly tap cranks back on with rubber mallet. Secure with crank screws. If necessary repeat after a week.

Ensure lock nut and bb threads are clean. Apply grease to threads. Hand tighten then really tighten using t-s spanner or bb spanner.

Using grease as an assembly aid is really important - helps engage as many threads as possible by reducing premature binding.

 

[scrolltonowhere]

Thank you both!
I can't tell if it's the actual pedals creaking. Both of them are old 90's treks so perhaps they have cracked BB shells.

I found this site for bearings which are a little more expensive than some sites so not sure if they're worth it: Online Store Ball Bearing Supplier, Stainless Steel Ball Bearings usa

I saw on another thread that the bearings should be 15x28x7mm. (6902) and "enduro type" if you don't replace the oil seals. Someone also posted something about a double row bearing 15x28x10mm (3902). Is one preferable to the other?

Honestly, I couldn't find information about replacing the oil seals. Did I get this right, this bearing should only go on the right side correct?

 

[pedalfettal]

I'm using 2x6902 on the lhs, and 1x6902 on the rhs. Oil seals go in parts bin.

The enduro-types have seals - useful if in damp/wet/dusty climate.

The tsdz2 are built to a budget and to a particular use-case - Chinese river-side cities with gentle slopes/grades. If your use case is different then you need to mod them up.

Re cost - your time is the cost - this is a hobby so if you want to spend pounds/bucks/greenbacks - your choice

 

[Chalo]

The tsdz2 are built to a budget total inexcusable crap and to a particular use-case not at all ready for prime time

Fixed that for you.

 

[pedalfettal]

The tsdz2 are built to a budget total inexcusable crap and to a particular use-case not at all ready for prime time

I disagree with the first alteration - I've learned a lot about electric motors, controllers, batteries, wattage, power-draw, electronics, and even more about various bicycle parts - all because I'm using the tsdz2 (along with its strengths and deficiencies).

I do agree with the second alteration - I couldn't recommend the unit to a 'civilian' - to a hobbyist - yes.

 

[scrolltonowhere]

Yeah sometimes the tsdz2 seems so much trouble. I thought I could be a hobbyist but after sinking time into these, sometimes I feel like I made the wrong move. It's become a little bit of a time sink and at this point I just want a working bike. Are there any other bottom bracket mounted motors that are better than the tsdz2? I'm aware of the Bafang but don't know much. Premade electrics seem expensive.

Yes, I am in a wet and hilly environment (Pittsburgh) which has more than gentle Chinese river side city slopes. I should've mentioned I do take groceries on my ebike sometimes, so this probably contributed to my issues.

One other thing to mention, which could also be related to the wobbliness of the motor, but sometimes my tsdz2 bike feels like the pedals are gliding and not giving me the "cycling" experience.

 

[pedalfettal]

I chose the tsdz2 because UK's EAPC regulations prescribe: 250W nominal power(*), assistance only when pedalling, and assistance cut-off at 15.5 mph (25 kph). No throttle effect after 4mph (6 kph)

I don't use the throttle - I prefer the torque sensor = bionic legs (up to 15.5 mph then real legs )

Other motors use PAS pedal sensor which just outputs power according to the remote's setting - not real cycling. Also front hub motors feel like you are being dragged along, and rear hub motors feel like you are being pushed along.

If I was in murca then I'd put the 500/750W bafang mid-motor on my commuter bicycle and keep the tongsheng for pootling around in town.


(*) 250W is the EU limit - UK used to be only 200W, Austria and Switzerland allow 500W.

 

[scrolltonowhere]

Murca where anything goes. I agree about the torque sensor is why I got this mid drive. I didn't even install the throttle - just have the smaller more discrete screen.

I should get the bearings today, so we'll see how it goes after this.

 

[scrolltonowhere]

Sorry for the redundancy, but I need some photos of exactly how to go about changing these bearings. Does anyone have a link to good reference on my next steps? It looks like I'll need a special tool to get that ring off like a retaining ring pliers.

 

[marvin78]

Does your's sound the same as mine? I uploaded a short video today.

I'm still in the 14 day return value, seller couldn't give a clue as to how I could go at solving it myself so I'm returning the motor I guess...

Ordered a new one right away tho.

As to the bearings ->

he mentioned 6902RS so I have those now, I also have drivetrain spacers ( though not the .5mm one yet ). I don't have any of the copper washers he says his kit came with though.

Feels kind of whack sending it back, I would rather fix it, but I don't really know where to start.

ps, out of curiosity, is your creak and wobble more pronounced ( or even only occurring in case of the sound ) when your pedals are perfectly vertical?

 

[Elinx]

....exactly how to go about changing these bearings. Does anyone have a link to good reference ....

Here I have written the "HowTo" for extra bearings.
For removing the dustseal you can use a thin screwdriver or spoke, between the spindle and innerside of the seal.

The main reason for at least two extra bearings is to support the spindle on more places.
The spindle diameter is a little bit smaller than 15mm, so the movement (and wobble) of it will decrease a bit.
Also because the support is on the other side of the circlip groove (were the dustseals are now) could help to prevent early breakage of the spindle.

For the locknut loosing you can try to dimple some punches with a centerpunch in the fixing plate.
The new Tsdz2B has embossing on that plate. With punches you can imitate this somewhat.

 

[marvin78]

Here I have written the "HowTo" for extra bearings.
For removing the dustseal you can use a thin screwdriver or spoke, between the spindle and innerside of the seal.

The main reason for at least two extra bearings is to support the spindle on more places.
The spindle diameter is a little bit smaller than 15mm, so the movement (and wobble) of it will decrease a bit.
Also because the support is on the other side of the circlip groove (were the dustseals are now) could help to prevent early braking of the spindle.

For the locknut loosing you can try to dimple some punches with a centerpunch in the fixing plate.
The new Tsdz2B has embossing on that plate. With punches you can imitate this somewhat.

Can this play on the spindle bearings cause a clunking sound particularly if the pedals are exactly vertical? If I do these bearing mods, will this remove the already existing clunking sound? It sounds like there is something working itself loose inside the motor housing, I would think perhaps the torque assembly somehow since that is what is attached to the spindle right, and that somehow rings a bell with having to start the motor with the cranks vertical for torque calibration.

Another things I've heard is that adding drive train spacers on the inside of the clutch assembly would eliminate any play / looseness in the cranks. I thought I'd likely have those, but now I'm not sure which one's in particular I would need. Drivetrain Spacer Kit from that kit, could you tell me which are the one's I'd need? I am guessing it's the .3 and/or .5mm shim's but not sure and I do not want to spend money on buying the wrong one's.

 

[Elinx]

Can this play on the spindle bearings cause a clunking sound particularly ...

imho no.

The extra bearings are to decrease lateral play of the spindle
The extra spacers are to decrease axial play of the spindle.

The lateral play is there for sure, but will be more after some time, because of the weak steel of the axle.
You can see the wobble of the maingear.
The axial play is not always there, so see if this is the case if you push/pull the axle

Personally I would first add the extra bearings and fix the locknut, before dissambling the spindle to add spacers.

 

[marvin78]

I have some axial play, didn't when I got the motor 200km ago but it's noticeable now.

Lateral play is minimal, I can both see and feel it move slightly but I don't think I would consider it an issue if it weren't for those awful sounds ( and I do feel 'something' each time one of my cranks is pointing exactly down, or it's just me getting scared of pushing continuous power through the pedal stroke as to not make the sound even worse ).

I would love to just rip the thing open and look around, but I'n not breaking that warranty sticker ( not when I'm within my 14 day buyer protection period for sure ).

I will do that ripping open anyway once my cooling kit / thermocouple / cable comes in, but I rather do that to the new motor I ordered and which hopefully won't have any issues to start with.

Was hoping someone could tell me: those sounds in that exact position constantly with each pedal stroke can only mean X, which you can fix with doing Y.

Sadly this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[raylo32]

I am not confident that the motor itself is the source. I'd recheck all the mounts and fasteners first, to include the clamp that holds it to the chainstays in the back. And also have a look at that little hold down plate on the non-drive side of the axle. It is tricky to get that right, IMHO, especially if you shift the motor a bit with the large BB spacers. If the little spacers on the bolts that hold that plate down don't take up the gap, that plate will be loose. On my bike I ended up getting a copper bushing and cutting a couple of spacers after measuring exactly what I needed there.

Was hoping someone could tell me: those sounds in that exact position constantly with each pedal stroke can only mean X, which you can fix with doing Y.

Sadly this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Elinx]

For dissambling the spindle you don't need to open the cover. Only for blue gear or adding thermopads.

If you remove the small circlip from the spindle on te drive side you push it out and can add some 15mm spacers. source

If you remove the bigger circlip you can remove the maingear and add these 30mm spacers in the video before.

But you must be sure if the spindle only has play or the spindle with maingear.

Maybe this video is also interesting for you

 

[marvin78]

I am not confident that the motor itself is the source. I'd recheck all the mounts and fasteners first, to include the clamp that holds it to the chainstays in the back. And also have a look at that little hold down plate on the non-drive side of the axle. It is tricky to get that right, IMHO, especially if you shift the motor a bit with the large BB spacers. If the little spacers on the bolts that hold that plate down don't take up the gap, that plate will be loose. On my bike I ended up getting a copper bushing and cutting a couple of spacers after measuring exactly what I needed there.

That plate is secure, but did indeed work loose slightly the time before the noise started. The spacers don't take 100% of the room, I can spin them with my fingers, but I can't really move them back and forth they are snug between plate and casing. I think the little play I have on the spindle came from that time when I rode home with a little to much play in the mounting, and maybe I damaged something else inside which is causing that sound exactly each time the cranks are vertical.

It says to torque the main ring to 40nm but then they give you their premium tools... and I don't have a torque wrench anyway. I secured everything as good as I could, I changed the allen key in the securing plate which mounts to the frame with a normal m8 I think, since I couldn't turn the allen key inside the space the frame would give me. But I could get a normal wrench in there so this worked fine for mounting I though.

Didn't use the large spacers, I have barely enough thread left and the chainline wasn't my concern just now ( reusing my existing cassette and all but will eventually replace everything ). It's already pretty far out, and I like it there since I do mostly run the small gears on the cassette.

I have the B version btw, so my plate is already dimpled and all that.

It was complicated I guess for the seller, the first issues I had were not related to the motor but the scam battery pack I was using. 1/3rd of advertised capacity and shoddy bms for sure. So I lost power to the motor intermittently, and had to turn off the battery to reset it. I ordered a battery from the same seller as the motor and then it never behaved like that again. But that has nothing to do ( I think.. ) with the mechanical issues.

For dissambling the spindle you don't need to open the cover. Only for blue gear or adding thermopads.

If you remove the small circlip from the spindle on te drive side you push it out and can add some 15mm spacers. source

If you remove the bigger circlip you can remove the maingear and add these 30mm spacers in the video before.

But you must be sure if the spindle only has play or the spindle with maingear.

Maybe this video is also interesting for you

I don't know where to get the proper spacers, finding the bearings was easy but lose BB spacers are there in many sizes and as I linked to above I can only find that big kit which is not something I plan on buying lol

I will watch that video now, thanks.

And sorry to ts, I feel like I'm hijacking his topic edit:McElec's video mostly covers wear and tear usual suspects I believe, and my motor is 200km old. Are those issues sometimes present on a new motor?

 

[marvin78]

Right there, attached to the spindle, that metal part which is indexed in line with the cranks when they would be attached.

I feel like it's likely the source of my noise ( as I can't find other indexed parts which are in the same line ), and it does look like it would be tighter with the spacers.

Now that I know opening spindle doesn't void warranty it can't hurt to take a look

 

[bikes4two]

Suggestions:

Do the replacing oil seals with bearings mod - this'll provide more support and help reduce spindle-play.

Take the cranks off. Grease spindle square interfaces. Lightly tap cranks back on with rubber mallet. Secure with crank screws. If necessary repeat after a week.

Ensure lock nut and bb threads are clean. Apply grease to threads. Hand tighten then really tighten using t-s spanner or bb spanner.

Using grease as an assembly aid is really important - helps engage as many threads as possible by reducing premature binding.

Just to add a little to this good advice:

1. The pedal crank bolts need to be really tight - in fact to 40nm which is way beyound what most DIY bike mechanics achieve without a torque wrench (in the YT vid in post #12 the guy tightens the crank bolt with an impact driver - I'd be very confident that he didn't tighten to 40nm!)
2. The motor lock ring also needs to be tightened to 40nm but you can't get a torque wrench in there so what I do is using the supplied lock ring spanner, I fully hand tighten and then tap the spanner around a further 1/ 8 - 1/4 of a turn with a mallet.

I've installed and look after 5 of these motors for family and friends and the only issue I've had is with a noisy motor (noisy from first installation time) which was resolved by a strip down and some bearing changes (not the blue gear though).

I agree that these motors are built to a price point and I'd not recommend them for heavy use/abuse such as 750w/52v ridden by a 250lb gorilla doing bunney hops - but for moderate use (36v 250w, urban riding around country lanes in my case) they have for me (and my friends) been a great bit of kit.

I often get asked by my Bosch Active Line companion riders about the kit and its cost and I think they are amazed at what the TSDZ2 gives you for your money. I mean, if I had to buy a new motor every year, it'd be cheaper than their prorietary 'customer locked out' stuff by a considerable margin, but so far after nearly two years and 7,000 ish miles, I've no complaints at all.

 

[raylo32]

I get that here when I ride with my old bike club buddies. Many, like me, have aged out of the hammerfests and are riding e-bikes more often. This gang has a lot of Turbo Levos and such. When I can spank them on my 1995 Cannondale F1000 with a $400 motor and $400 battery they are amazed.

I often get asked by my Bosch Active Line companion riders about the kit and its cost and I think they are amazed at what the TSDZ2 gives you for your money.

 

[calab]

When I can spank them on my 1995 Cannondale F1000 with a $400 motor and $400 battery they are amazed.

Spank them on what?

Each style of ebike has its pros and cons, the Trek Levo's are perfect for off road even on wild over grown game trails, sure a hub can do that to but the mid drives so much smoother when you pay much more, thats why you pay for it. Good balance, low center of gravity, but your stuck buying their swag.

 

[raylo32]

My bike is a mid drive. Just saying the fact that a cheapo mid drive motor conversion can do what a TL does and more for about 1/10 of the price. The TLs are great bikes for sure, but so overpriced. Now if both our bike motors broke down or batteries die, they would certainly be in a better state to be pedaled home with no power what with their lower weight and less internal resistance. I'll give them that.

Spank them on what?

Each style of ebike has its pros and cons, the Trek Levo's are perfect for off road even on wild over grown game trails, sure a hub can do that to but the mid drives so much smoother when you pay much more, thats why you pay for it. Good balance, low center of gravity, but your stuck buying their swag.

 

[marvin78]

Took the thing apart to the point where I had to remove the clips and found that I can't find my circ clip pliers. I can't even find my thin needle nose pliers. Will have to go out and buy one tomorrow.

I am certain the sounds are coming from inside the assembly, while the play isn't even that bad.

I also found out that the m8 bolt I used instead of the supplied one with the allenkey head bent and wasn't keeping the motor secure at all. I know this because I can see right on the frame where the motorcasing impacts the bottom of my frame.

Just that it's no use to worry about the mounting right now, when there is an issue inside the assembly