Tucson Death Race 2011 roll call. Results on page 1

[John in CR]

Why not just run a high enough voltage that it never limits you... ie High enough that you never reach top speed on the longest straight, whether it's lap 1 or lap 12 ? That's how I ride every day, and how I would set up for racing. It's the only way to ensure max power as you exit the curves and get on the throttle. I have no problem sacrificing 0-20mph acceleration or efficiency, because that's just a one time deal at the start. I want to be a follower through the curves because I have zero experience 2 wheel racing, and turn the last portion of every curve and first 2/3 to 3/4 of each straight straight away into a drag race. That plus some DNFs would probably be my only chance.

You mentioned no brakes this time, but I didn't understand. I will have to brake hard before entering every curve, and I've been thinking that I really need dual disks on the front. Regen is great, but won't be nearly enough braking power for racing.

 

[SoSauty]

John, some motors and particullarly ESC/controllers have limits That seems to be the developement ceiling for e-bike racing. RC bikes are working mostly with the Castle HV160, hi-amps yet 50V limit. Others are installing halls so they may use controllers, yet hi-voltage mods are beyond the typical hobbyist. (?C-5300's) & Cont9's are getting close to heat saturation in hard acceleration/45mph racing environment. Otherwise, extra voltage makes perfect sense

I hope to see you there!

As well, Dogmanz has a front wheel drive so he wants to hold just shy of scary power that can snap a fork. If something like that happens at an officiated track, as Tucson, insurance wil have investagations all over that, and just imagine their knee-jerk conclusion

 

[John in CR]

John, some motors and particullarly ESC/controllers have limits That seems to be the developement ceiling for e-bike racing. RC bikes are working mostly with the Castle HV160, hi-amps yet 50V limit. Others are installing halls so they may use controllers, yet hi-voltage mods are beyond the typical hobbyist. C-5300's & Cont9's are getting close to heat saturation in hard acceleration/45mph racing environment. Otherwise, extra voltage makes perfect sense

I'm not really worried about the controllers, because the lowest speeds through the curves are above or right at the top end of the danger threshold from current limiting. I can't speak for the RC stuff, though Matt pumps out serious power.

(How's that coffee in CR :wink: )

Are you ready for some more yet? I forgot all about asking which you liked best, so I could send more.

As well, Dogmanz has a front wheel drive so he wants to hold just shy of scary power that can snap a fork. If something like that happens at an officiated track, as Tucson, insurance wil have investagations all over that, and just imagine their knee-jerk conclusion

I ran that kind of power with my first hubbie, which was in a front suspension fork. I worried about the fork some until I thought about how much greater the braking forces are even with a regular bike, so my main area of concern is the headset connection to the bike, so I stick with steel. To me the real risk of front hubs is with a torque wind motor and some failure resulting in instantaneous plug braking putting someone over the bars. With speed wind motors it's not an issue because they have far lower plug braking force. I had several of those failures while pushing the limits of my factory controllers, so they were thankfully uneventful.

An X5 is roughly twice the motor of a 9C, but not a lot more surface area. With ventilation though, they can pump twice the power of a 9C without issue. Also, I think the 9C has been hitting stator saturation when pushed hard. My motors are quite comparable to a speed wound X5, with right at 60mph on 74V nominal in a 19.5" wheel. I would use 2wd to really blast out of the curves, offset my weight handicap, and allow conservative controller settings, since the last thing I'd want is an equipment failure after traveling so far.

I'd be delusional if I thought I would ride at the limits of tires, so my only chance at glory would be brute force acceleration out of each curve until it's time to brake for the next one, take the curve with the pack and attack the next straight. The lack of rules to level the playing field is the only thing making my plan possible, and it's probably a 1 year opportunity.

 

[dogman dan]

If I had the money, I'd just slap on 15 ah of battery and be hunky dory. About $300 more would do it for 5ah more ah of 100+ v . Not sure if you even have the AC power to recharge very fast unless you bring your own generator. Just a couple accesible 110 plugs, and looks like 8-10 of us will be wanting to use em at once.

I'll be bringing my 3000 watt generator, which can at least run a few slow chargers at one time. I shouldn't be needing it once the heat races start.

So my setup got pricy, aiming for a pack for the practice and the heat, and a cherry pack for the main. You may have as little as 45 min to an hour between the last heat and the main. With better charging, I could run a big pack and see less sag at the end of the race. I'm keeping my watts low enough to not melt the motor, and get away with running a 10 ah pack.

A similar ante, to switch to a different bike with at least cable disk brakes. I'm a running suicide rim brakes one more time it looks. May as well be running a flat track bike with no brakes at all. Power wise, I did finally find the point at which I can spinout that front hub if I apply too much throttle too early in the turn. Scare yourself good enough, and you can get real slow for the next lap or two.... So I think the 100v ballpark is where I'm at this outing. To really do a better race bike I could easily drop another thou into this sinkhole. Right now I just need to milk the money I spent for fun, and not worry so much about how I finish. Don't get me wrong, I'll be dogfight racing out there, but only on what I can afford.

Plus there is to consider, more power and speed is going to take bigger balls to ride. I'm pretty close to riding at my max skill level now. You will see those riding above their skill level out there in the dirt again I'm sure. I'm way out of practice for drifting a motorcycle on asphalt. All that stuff was going on when I was 20. I'll be faster than most, but trying for style points more than the actual win. Podium would be nice though. 8) Especially 3rd behind two other ebikes.

 

[dogman dan]

Speaking of staying on the track, this is the tire of choice for 90% of the fastest riders. Not sure how sticky they are compared to other tires, but these guys have been running in the DR for many years.

http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/maxxis-hookworm-26x25-tire

For those on tighter budgets, I have run this, and like it for the odd shape that has a big contact patch when leaned over good.

http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/innova-swiftor-city-tire

 

[John in CR]

Can we count on sun near 100%? I'll never forget my first trip to Vegas. Going from New Orleans I was looking forward to experiencing "dry heat", but I step off the plane to overcast and 80+% humidity...hot and muggy, the same weather I left in N.O.

 

[SoSauty]

John,
Tucson considers humidity, 'a storm.'

A strong double hubbie could podium! I tried 2 styles of getting around the track, the preferred one by veterans was a flowing, curvy, rarely touch the brake, always setting up to round off the next corner style of riding. The other, which worked as well for the peppy little moto rental, was to sacrifice cornering style, blast(?) the straights and grab lots of disc brake a few feet before the turns

Its certainly going to be an infamous race, one of those that gets retold over and again. The defending champs are used to racing in clean air out in front of the pack. However, bigger power calls for bigger brakes with more weight. I can see the new builds needing to blast, brake, chop the corner, repeat. . . If 'ya get a wheel out in front headed into a corner, one can cause the other to back off (shut the door on 'em), and you own that position. The fresh builds this April introduce a new racing pressure. Likely be lots of dusty spills

Gotta PM you.

 

[AussieJester]

Speaking of staying on the track, this is the tire of choice for 90% of the fastest riders. Not sure how sticky they are compared to other tires, but these guys have been running in the DR for many years.

http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/maxxis-hookworm-26x25-tire

Thats what i have on the front of my cruiser and front and rear on the new bike albeit in the 24in variety
excellent tire imo...

KiM

 

[dogman dan]

Yes, an excellent tire those hookworms. The large size yeilds a big contact patch, and not many have suspension so a balloon is good.

Somebody backs off in the death race? Not up front they don't.

 

[John in CR]

At 2.5" I assume the hookworms are a lot fatter than they look in that pic. I don't doubt the hookworms are a good tire with so many praising them despite the price, but wouldn't those cheaper tires that Dogman runs actually be better for racing than a very round tire?... ie small contact patch while going straight that widens out due to the flatter area in a lean, at least as long as you don't lean past what looks to be about 45°? Aren't motorcycle racing tire more "pointy" like Dogman's choice vs the rounder hookworms that are more like a motorcycle road tire?

 

[liveforphysics]

I'm planning to run scooter race slicks.

Tires that last for thousands of miles are not good racing tires IMHO.

 

[dogman dan]

That was what I was thinking when I put on the Innova swiftors. Plus, I had them laying around because they came on my schwinn trike. :lol: Got over a thou in my battery and too cheap to buy a tire. But after trying them, I like em. But I wouldn't call em sticky. They are cheap tires that wear out fast, so not super hard compound. At these power levels though, I doubt the rolling resistance is an issue. A lot of the guys crashing are running some kind of weird tire though. Anything slicker, but not to skinny should work good. Do not bring knobbies of any kind.

Weather can be anything on that date, but rain would be astonishing. We could have a haboob, or just wind that could be 50 mph gusts any spring day depending on the timing of the front. Last year was a glorious sunny day about 90F, and wind was the typical 20 mph or so for any spring day. We should have wind by the time of the later heats and main event, so expect to go slow down the straight into 13, then have wind at your back down the straigh to the finish.

 

[Thud]

Alright Boys,
Had a busy week making araingments for travel & exploring all the posibilities...here is Team Thud's final travel araingments:
I have networked with some aquaintences & have a "ship to" adress in Touscon to send my bike, batts & support equipment in advance. (10 mins from the airport)
My Sister in law travels for work & has built an unbelivable Log of FFmiles. She is sponcering some plane tickets for the trip.
Huge thanks Linea! (she will be awarded a pc of hand built furniture to be named at a later date )
I will be hitting the ground noonish in Tuscon the 14th. I'll rent a mini van, pick up a generator for track side charging (have the network beating the bushes looking for a "loaner") pick up the bike & assemble it....friday-loung about in the hotel pool after along winter/getting the race face on.

I'll be pm'm my contact #s when we get closer to the event. Looking foward to meeting all the crew & swappin storries.

I will be on Pirellies & "backing it in" any where i need to

 

[John in CR]

I'm planning to run scooter race slicks.

Tires that last for thousands of miles are not good racing tires IMHO.

??? I thought your were looking to borrow a bike, but now it sounds like you got hold of a big scooter hubbie, or are you talking conversion of that big brushed motor still? Let me know if you don't have your own bike, because I may send one even if I don't go and would need a rider, OR if I'm able to make it just bring two ready rigs and have 4 motors sent directly from the factory along with plenty Lipo from HC. Jockey size would be ideal, but a friend is a close second. :lol:

Regarding race tires, I hope they're new. I heard that race tires designed to be super sticky only after that first run up to temperature, and get hard after that.

Wait a second, WTF is a "scooter race slick"? Scooter and race aren't words that ever collide in the same sentence, except when I say "My ebikes have kicked the shit out of every scooter I've run across." Just Wednesday morning one had the nerve to pass me just before turning to get on the highway. I just happened to be headed then same way, which was on the highway and up and over the mountain. Little did that gasser know, he didn't have a chance and that was I ideal conditions for him. I was surprised he was able to maintain above 55kph on the 6-7% grade section, because a lot of the small delivery motos can't even manage that. I do confess to playing with him like some ebikers do pedalists, and just rode his tail at partial throttle. When we hit the steepest section, I went to full throttle and accelerated right on by despite the increased grade, and won the kilometer or so to the crest in the hill easily by 200-300m. After the crest he had no chance either, since the downhill exceeded the headwind, and I accelerated well past 100kph. I don't know the speed as my bike speedo craps out at 100. That's with a 125lb bike, one motor, conservative controller settings, old saggy batteries, and only 20s vs the 24s I would use for racing.

I don't even count racing against that scooter at the beach the night of "the rogue wave". When on the way back from the turn around point I pass the scooter that's not even halfway to the turn, I call that a joke not a race, and that's without considering I eased off the throttle long before.

John

 

[John in CR]

Alright Boys,
Had a busy week making araingments for travel & exploring all the posibilities...here is Team Thud's final travel araingments:
I have networked with some aquaintences & have a "ship to" adress in Touscon to send my bike, batts & support equipment in advance. (10 mins from the airport)
My Sister in law travels for work & has built an unbelivable Log of FFmiles. She is sponcering some plane tickets for the trip.
Huge thanks Linea! (she will be awarded a pc of hand built furniture to be named at a later date )
I will be hitting the ground noonish in Tuscon the 14th. I'll rent a mini van, pick up a generator for track side charging (have the network beating the bushes looking for a "loaner") pick up the bike & assemble it....friday-loung about in the hotel pool after along winter/getting the race face on.

I'll be pm'm my contact #s when we get closer to the event. Looking foward to meeting all the crew & swappin storries.

I will be on Pirellies & "backing it in" any where i need to

I'm not sure what "backing it in" means, but it sounds like you're ready to go. We're counting on you to have a race ready bike(s) this time, so please no DNS's or DNF's. This is the beginning of the first decade of the EV, so the gassers must be put in their place this go round.

 

[wineboyrider]

I might make a run for it with my cheap ass wal-mart bike setups. But, wouldn't mind a little help on the battery setups?? Need power supplies and courage!

 

[AussieJester]

Alright Boys,
Had a busy week making araingments for travel & exploring all the posibilities...here is Team Thud's final travel araingments:
I have networked with some aquaintences & have a "ship to" adress in Touscon to send my bike, batts & support equipment in advance. (10 mins from the airport)
My Sister in law travels for work & has built an unbelivable Log of FFmiles. She is sponcering some plane tickets for the trip.
Huge thanks Linea! (she will be awarded a pc of hand built furniture to be named at a later date )
I will be hitting the ground noonish in Tuscon the 14th. I'll rent a mini van, pick up a generator for track side charging (have the network beating the bushes looking for a "loaner") pick up the bike & assemble it....friday-loung about in the hotel pool after along winter/getting the race face on.

I'll be pm'm my contact #s when we get closer to the event. Looking foward to meeting all the crew & swappin storries.

I will be on Pirellies & "backing it in" any where i need to

I'm not sure what "backing it in" means, but it sounds like you're ready to go. We're counting on you to have a race ready bike(s) this time, so please no DNS's or DNF's. This is the beginning of the first decade of the EV, so the gassers must be put in their place this go round.

"backing it in" refers to the sliding/drifting action of the rear wheel of the bike as your braking into the corner the rear wheel never stops spinnning as in a rear brake lock up, technically on an e-bike with a freewheel setup its not possible as "backing it in" is the term used for when engine braking is used to produce the sliding of the rear wheel..Youtube some Supermotard action DogMan they 'back it in' nearly every corner alternatively, Youtube Casey Stoner he is a freak on the MotoGP bike, any qualy run he backs the ass end into corners very exciting too see....I assume ThudSTaR will be on all brakes hard locked up elbows out looking for someone to 'rub against' to keep him on the track OR using the Infineon controllers he may in fact have regen and use the mofo Turnigy for some compression lock ups into the turns? Wouldn't surprise me in the least, two things i think we can count on Dogman's he will be there with working e-bike(s) and he will be very hard to beat.

KiM

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding tires, I had pretty good traction (on the track, not the dirt :lol with the super-cheap hookwormish-lookkindalike 24" on the rear of CrazyBike2, and the Cheng Shin rounded profile tire on the front 26", and I was leaning pretty hard over (I do that in my normal street riding, too, when the cargo pods aren't on it, but not any anything faster than 20MPH, usually closer to 16-17 due to not being able to see that far around most corners).

AFAIK they are the tires that came with the chopper-style Izip; I got them from All Electronics over a year ago for something like $6-7 each including shipping, but they don't have them any more. Been such a good tire compared to many others I've had that I wish I'd gotten more of them.

 

[John in CR]

Ok, I decided to go check out some videos of "backing in"...cool stuff to watch..., but after a bit more digging it turns out to rapidly becoming a technique more for show than for winning, so it's falling out of style in racing. Plus it's difficult enough that even the best riders muck the maneuver up regularly. I think I'll leave backing it in, stoppies, drifting, and smoking tires till they burst to others. It's a lot like golf's "drive for show and putt for dough", so I'll stick to the putting.

 

[dogman dan]

Sure is fun to drift the corners though. And cool looking. Watching those motard vids is really good for jacking up for the race.

Maybe I always did it wrong, but I used to drift corners on a KZ750 by putting power on the wheel. It was brake, lean, then power on till you start countersteering.

I don't think I'll be that hard to beat, when you come with more motor than a 9 continent. But I hope I have it dialed in to finish.

I'd love to ride enough to really corner well, but as is I can hang with the fast boys if my bike is fast enough on the straights. All it takes to fall back 50 yards is one muffed line though, and Alex and Dave really have that track wired. Till I stupidly left the track last time, I kept catching Alex on straights, then he'd leave me in corners. I was fastest when I could stay right on his ass, and take exactly the same line. Following close, I'd tend to brake less. Borrowing some balls so to speak.

The win might be staying right on one of those guys, and then having to power to pass in the last 100 yards to the finish. You won't leave the track following Dave or Alex.

 

[AussieJester]

Dave31 (organizer of the Death Race and Moderator on moteredbikes.com) has decided not to race his morini powered motored bicycle in the Death Race due to a bunch of bitching emails he received from other Motredbike.com members. Honestly, this guy is organizing an event for everyone and he get grief from ungrateful frock wits over his bike. As a result, along with Dave not riding he has decided to ban all morini powered bikes from officially competing i.e their finishing position won't count but they can circulate on the track if they wish... again this is a result of a handful of ungrateful pricks bitching... I think we should get behind Dave and support him, encourage him to race and lift the ban, its sad to me, that Dave organizes this event in his own time for no pay so others can enjoy themselves for an afternoon and then he don't get to participate...

KiM

 

[Evoforce]

I agree with you Kim. I have to believe it can't be more than one or two complaining. But if he doesn't race and this is the case, we electrics are likely to be banned shortly also.

 

[AussieJester]

I agree with you Kim. I have to believe it can't be more than one or two complaining. But if he doesn't race and this is the case, we electrics are likely to be banned shortly also.

Oh yes, it was more than few i think... haha yes Thud and i were just chatting aboutz that, the aftermath from this years Death Race will be interesting ...maybe Safe will get his EBRR (electric bicycle road racing) 1000watt thing after all LoL Honestly i would cross the road to watch 1000watt e-bike race, how boring...

KiM

 

[John in CR]

Rules suck!

We gotta make sure Dave brings his bike, so the real race can take place after the official main event. The post event "what if" excuses can't be allowed. This is the last opportunity for no limits motorized bicycle racing, so let's not let it slip away. We can call it the Ebike vs Stinkbike challenge matchup. They choose their best, and we choose ours, for a 3 or 5 lap deal with 2 bikes. I'll sponsor it even if I'm unable to attend.

 

[dogman dan]

I wouldn't consider it a real win, unless the morini's could compete.