What's the point of 1000+W ebikes ?

[rumme]

I just got my own latest e-bike running last night, and I spent the afternoon today running errands on it. It's a good bike, capable of more than 30mph on motor power and equipped with a great frame, wheels, and brakes for that job.

But it's way more pleasant at 22mph or less. There's no getting around it. Less wind noise, less harshness and vibration, more situational awareness. Faster isn't better. Right now I have the system limited to 25mph, but after I shake all the bugs out of it, I expect I'll reset the limit lower.

I agree that cruising speeds below 30 mph is ideal for pleasure and efficiency, less wind drag , but once again just because someone has a 1000 + watt motor, doesn't mean they want that power to go 50 mph on flat area. The extra wattage is ideal for steep roads or trails.

Chalo, I think you have claimed to be over 300 lbs in bodyweight. If you lived in a nation where the laws where a max of 250 watts, would you really think that suits your needs or the needs of everyone that wants a ebike ?

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

I just got my own latest e-bike running last night, and I spent the afternoon today running errands on it. It's a good bike, capable of more than 30mph on motor power and equipped with a great frame, wheels, and brakes for that job.

But it's way more pleasant at 22mph or less. There's no getting around it. Less wind noise, less harshness and vibration, more situational awareness. Faster isn't better. Right now I have the system limited to 25mph, but after I shake all the bugs out of it, I expect I'll reset the limit lower.

I agree that cruising speeds below 30 mph is ideal for pleasure and efficiency, less wind drag , but once again just because someone has a 1000 + watt motor, doesn't mean they want that power to go 50 mph on flat area. The extra wattage is ideal for steep roads or trails.

Chalo, I think you have claimed to be over 300 lbs in bodyweight. If you lived in a nation where the laws where a max of 250 watts, would you really think that suits your needs or the needs of everyone that wants a ebike ?

wind noise proportional to frontal area.

 

[Matador]

I think an eBike with a 1000W or less setup can have a reasonably light battery to still be a long distance commuter (as in range or 60 km or more).
As much as I'd love to have a 10000 W setup right now, what kind of battery could handle this for cummuting long distance and still be lightweight ??? Going from 1000W WOT to 2000W WOT, it think I'd need a 4 times heavier battery to get the same range and reliable battery cycle life.

I started off with a BBSHD which outputs 1100-1300 mecanical watts through the shaft at 30A on a 48V battery. I just Love it. For best range, get the gears right to go 20mph will still having the highest motor RPM possible. But blast it throught the roof at an uncomfortable 35-37 mph (55-58 km/h) all the time, and your range is like 3 to 4 times less with that same battery.

I'm in NYC for 2 years... This is temporary, but I bought an old 250W ebike setup (controller 36V nominal, 7A cruise ; 15A max)... I enjoy it and get crazy range from a 22Ah 36 V battery. I get 60_ kilometers from 41.7V to 35.0V....
My 600USD ride : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=89258#p1310144
Same battery but 1000W setup, and I know I would maybe get 30km range maximum because I love that throttle a bit too much.... My battery is 10S10P. I would not do 1000W on a 10S4P... But 250W would be okay for not damaging a 10S4P batt....

I find myself liking the 250W very much, but I admit I'd like to have a bit more torque/acceleration and top speed. 250W gets me to 18 mph (28 km/h).
For high speed cruising, I still feel very confortable and secure at 24-25 mph (38 to 40 km/h). 500W would be perfect for these speeds. 750W would be like a luxury sports car her in manhattan bit too much power, but still get good range out of a normally sized/weight battery.
1000W would be like an electric"gas"-guzzler here in manhattan.... Not much more usefull for commuting in NYC but drains your battery faster and eats up through your drivetrain (well for the BBSHD), at least if you're like me an can't resist leaning on that throttle all the time.

The thing is 40-45 km/h for me is the perfect compromise.... The fastest I'm willing to comfortably commute in a city on a velo, but still you get some great range from your battery from a low enough wattage motor-controller setup (500W hub should do it).

If I was mid-drive in Manhattans I'd get a 500W Bafang 8-FUN or 750W BBS02. Anyways, manhattamn is flat so If I was building a bike, I'd use a 750 or 1000W DD. Anything above and I could not make use of th added power in this crowded city.
But put me on the tracks and I'd love to ride a dual hub (10000W x 2) e-dirtbike.

For a hub, I would choose wattage according to city
Megalopolis City : 350W to 1000W (Extremely crowded city, traffic almost never faster than 40 km/h). My sweet spot : 500W
Metropolis City : 500W to 2000W (Relatively dense city, traffic slower downtow, but commutes can be long) My sweet spot : 750W
Suburb City : 1000W to 6000W (More like a very spread out village than a city.... Everything is far away and people drive faster than the speed limits all the time). My sweet spot 2500W (guessed).
Tracks : anything above 4000W with good frame, suspension, hydrolic disk brakes, dot tires, full face helmet, etc...

Matador

 

[liveforphysics]

Something to consider.

If you have say a Zero S and a Zero SR, or you have a Tesla 100d or p100d, it makes no difference in the amount of electricity or battery capacity it takes to get somewhere.

You just gained the potential for a wider acceleration/speed envelope if you should need it during your ride.

When bikes or vehicles in general get to a reasonable power to weight ratio with a reasonable top speed, it really stops mattering at all what the peak power is or whatever the top speed may be, because you just ride for however the conditions feel are safe at that time irregardless of what the vehicle may be capable of doing.

All the folks who think bicycle speed on roadways of double and triple bicycle speed multi-ton steel cages may someday get a white painted bicycle in your honor, but it won't make going a different speed than traffic is moving any better of an idea.

 

[Ohbse]

Agree wholeheartedly with Luke on this one. Power capability in the EV world does not require constant compromise like it does with ICE powered machines.

My biggest reason for requiring >legal power is time exposed to danger. If I have enough power, the number of occasions when I am passed reaches zero. With rapid acceleration comes clear air and the ability to maintain it by varying my speed with the flow of traffic. I believe (and practice) that going 40mph is safer than going 12mph in the context of a shared road with ignorant and inattentive drivers of multi ton vehicles. I have had several conversations with law enforcement who have observed me doing so, not only did they agree with my assessment that this was safer, they applauded finding a way to minimise harm to the environment, reduce overall traffic, avoid holding up other road users and allow the possibility of wearing substantial safety enhancing protective wear (Leather jacket/full face helmet). Mostly they were curious as to what I was riding as they were unable to keep up. I personally don't really care for debating the arbitrary definition of my vehicle, I just built what I thought was an optimal combination of components to maximise safety, minimise travel times and deliver efficiently and reliably. It so happens that results in a very terrible bicycle when ridden un-powered.

I live my life by minimising harm while maximising efficiency. I avoid any situation where I may harm more vulnerable road/path users and minimise circumstances where I may be harmed, while getting to where I'm going substantially quicker and use nothing but surplus solar energy to do so. On the very rare occasion I utilise bicycle facilities I never, ever exceed bicycle speeds. Unfortunately not everyone shares my restraint. Perhaps if I was 18 again I would be more of a menace to others. The significant financial barrier to entry is dropping all the time and I can see a time when this situation may change where I live and regulations are more tightly enforced. This will not change my own behaviour however.

What's right for me is not right for everyone. If I had access to better cycle only facilities that could get me to work in the same duration, I would likely ride something far closer to a lightweight conventional bicycle and be very happy to give up higher peak speeds and protective gear. I definitely still wouldn't limit the vehicle to a meaningless vague limit on watts, severally compromising ability under different riding conditions.

 

[Chalo]

Chalo, I think you have claimed to be over 300 lbs in bodyweight. If you lived in a nation where the laws where a max of 250 watts, would you really think that suits your needs or the needs of everyone that wants a ebike ?

I wouldn't be excited about only 250W, but I reckon I'd use a notionally more powerful motor and then program a controller to deliver precisely 250 watts at the wheel over the largest possible range of motor speeds. That would make the thing act like a stronger motor when it's most valuable-- when climbing or accelerating from a stop.

I'd also use the pedals to add up to a kW or more whenever I need it, like I do now. So the 250W of motor power would represent 250W more than I usually have-- not a bad deal really.

As long as you're allowed to have an electric moped, then there's really nothing wrong with having a rule that says "more than xxx watts is a moped".

When I had a big powerful motorcycle, I kept it registered and insured. When I moved to Washington State and was no longer required to keep it insured, I let the insurance go. If the law says I have to get a plate for my e-bike, I'll do it. But since I can avoid expense and paperwork by keeping my e-bike within applicable local electric bicycle limits, that's what I do. If I wanted to go much faster, I'd license and insure it. Is that so difficult?

 

[Matador]

Something to consider.

If you have say a Zero S and a Zero SR, or you have a Tesla 100d or p100d, it makes no difference in the amount of electricity or battery capacity it takes to get somewhere.

You just gained the potential for a wider acceleration/speed envelope if you should need it during your ride.

When bikes or vehicles in general get to a reasonable power to weight ratio with a reasonable top speed, it really stops mattering at all what the peak power is or whatever the top speed may be, because you just ride for however the conditions feel are safe at that time irregardless of what the vehicle may be capable of doing.

All the folks who think bicycle speed on roadways of double and triple bicycle speed multi-ton steel cages may someday get a white painted bicycle in your honor, but it won't make going a different speed than traffic is moving any better of an idea.

I love to have that greater envelope with the 1200W BBSHD compared to my 250W Arrow eBike. But the problem for me is that I like to push the envelope to the limit, thus taxing my battery cycle lifespan on a higher watt engine... I rearly limit my consumption to 250W when on the BBSHD. More like 900W because that<s like going 40-45 km/h. I think if I had the same flimsy bike frame but with a 10 000 W motor, I'd still only use the 900W because I'm just not comfy at higher speeds. In that precise case, of course I would never be inclined to explore the limit of that new envelope. I'd probably use the added torque though! I think that a typical standard bike frame is not meant to take much more than a 1000W. Past that point, you need a more solid frame build.... something hybrid between a bike frame and a motorcycle frame in order to be comfortable to push the envelop of higher wattage motor/controllers.... And some really good brakes and tires too.

 

[rumme]

Chalo, I think you have claimed to be over 300 lbs in bodyweight. If you lived in a nation where the laws where a max of 250 watts, would you really think that suits your needs or the needs of everyone that wants a ebike ?

. If the law says I have to get a plate for my e-bike, I'll do it. But since I can avoid expense and paperwork by keeping my e-bike within applicable local electric bicycle limits, that's what I do. If I wanted to go much faster, I'd license and insure it. Is that so difficult?

Its not about it being difficult to pay for registration , pay for tags, pay for insurance, etc. Its about how a corrupt govt is able to break the laws and continually make new assinine laws that us peons are supposed to be enslaved to. Like others, I have been riding ebikes for 10 years now...without paying a penny to a corrupt govt establishment. As you know, corrupt govts NEVER are happy with the laws and fees currently on the books, they always want more and more and MORE, at the cost to us taxpayers. Furthermore, you keep claiming its about " wanting to go faster" ..this is not always the case.

As I explained earlier , the extra power/wattage on my ebikes is mainly used for travelling steep roads in my area, that where it is most needed and most used. This extra power over the 750 watt limit, allows me to go up these hills at 15-20 mph....instead of trying to use a 750 watt legal setup, that would probably not have enough UMPHHH..to do it. I currently had a ebike custom built capable of 5kw nominal and 7 kw bursts....it will not be used to do 50 mph on the roadways...I will continue to use the extra power with common sense, like I have for years, why should I have to pay a corrupt govt to do this ?

 

[rumme]

Chalo, I think you have claimed to be over 300 lbs in bodyweight. If you lived in a nation where the laws where a max of 250 watts, would you really think that suits your needs or the needs of everyone that wants a ebike ?

I'd also use the pedals to add up to a kW or more whenever I need it, like I do now. So the 250W of motor power would represent 250W more than I usually have-- not a bad deal really.

?

You weigh over 300 lbs ?

Lets be honest, a 250 watt motor would not be much use if you had to travel roads that were very steep . Its main use would be on flat roads and would be basically useless on :

long/steep inclines
sand
dirt trails
gravel roads

or having the ability to quickly accelerate out of a dangerous scenario, if needed.

 

[Chalo]

I'm 6 feet 8 inches tall, over 300 pounds, and I climb whatever grades I encounter on my bicycles without any electric assist. So 250 extra watts could only help.

If I squandered my pedal power on some of the stuff I see promoted around here (DOT rated tires, motorcycle wheels, dual suspension, ghastly heavy battery box frames, etc.), then I'd probably struggle to climb steep hills without electric assist. And I'd probably find 250 watts of motor power to be almost useless. But since I've been riding regular bikes for transportation for 30 years now, I know better than to set such traps for myself.

I won't ride a bike with electric assist that I wouldn't also ride with pedal power only. So whatever electric assist I use, is used efficiently.

 

[SlowCo]

I just came across this post in another thread and hate to think what would be the verdict if such a thing happens while riding an illegal ebike...

You cannot legally use a 1000w motor and restrict it in any way to make it legal in Australia or Europe. The rule is very clear. The motor must have a maximum rated continuous power of no more than 250W. There is nothing that Em3ev or Justin has that can change that.

Any motor that's listed as 1000w is automatically out. It would have to be listed, labelled or catalogued as a 250w (or less) motor to be legal.

What you can get away with is different. Nobody seems to be checking and nobody seems to be bothered about what people are doing with their electric bikes; however, think about this incident. A guy was riding his fixie at 18 mph when a woman stepped out into the road without looking while texting on her mobile phone. They banged heads and she died. Today, he is in the Old Bailey defending a charge of causing death by wanton and furious riding because he had no front brake. In the UK, it's illegal to ride a fixie bike without a front brake. If found guilty, he'll go to jail. Also, I can imagine a massive lawsuit that will keep him in poverty for the rest of his life even if he doesn't go to jail.

Court 11. Notice that in the other courts all the defendants are charged with murder. That's how serious it is. this is the Old Bailey, not your local magistrates court:
https://old-bailey.com/old-bailey-cases-of-interest/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/charlie-alliston-kim-briggs-trial-latest_uk_5995a251e4b0acc593e5ab3f

 

[Alan B]

Actually, you can rate your motor at whatever power you want. If you manufacture it.

It seems that there is no precise procedure for rating motor power. So any manufacturer can apply whatever rating they choose. Even the Bosch motors are capable of much more than 250W, but they rate them where they want, and set the electronics to 250W or whatever. They don't make separate motors for different markets.

So all you have to do is manufacture your motor, then you can decide what power it is. You can also have a motor custom made for you, and have them apply whatever numbers you choose.

It is quite common for motors to have conservative ratings. This is the designer's choice. It can be for high efficiency, low temperature rise, long life, high peak power requirements, etc.

Quite a few people on ES have made their own motors, so this is not impossible. Justin or EM3EV could easily do that if they wanted to (which they probably don't). Many vendors have had motors made to their spec for ebikes.

 

[rumme]

I'm 6 feet 8 inches tall, over 300 pounds, and I climb whatever grades I encounter on my bicycles without any electric assist. So 250 extra watts could only help.

.

In my location, we have 3 very steep roads that lead to town . I am fairly confident that if you had to commute these 3 hills on a regular basis , you would admit that 250 watts of power is quite lethargic on a ebike. Keep in mind, I weigh 240 lbs ad am 6ft5" tall and have been into weightlifting for 32 years, so I am not out of shape by any means. These 3 local hills are so steep and long, that you rarely see any bicyclists traverse them.

Once again, 250 watts of power is useful for straight flat roadways and/or people of lower body weights , but then again, those 2 situations don't really require a electric motor, since having a low bodyweight and cycling on all flat roads is quite easy for anyone in decent physical shape . For me and my location, a 250 watt motor setup it would be fairly useless and I wouldn't even spend my disposable income on such a low powered ebike.

 

[rumme]

I just came across this post in another thread and hate to think what would be the verdict if such a thing happens while riding an illegal ebike...

You cannot legally use a 1000w motor and restrict it in any way to make it legal in Australia or Europe. The rule is very clear. The motor must have a maximum rated continuous power of no more than 250W. There is nothing that Em3ev or Justin has that can change that.

Any motor that's listed as 1000w is automatically out. It would have to be listed, labelled or catalogued as a 250w (or less) motor to be legal.

What you can get away with is different. Nobody seems to be checking and nobody seems to be bothered about what people are doing with their electric bikes; however, think about this incident. A guy was riding his fixie at 18 mph when a woman stepped out into the road without looking while texting on her mobile phone. They banged heads and she died. Today, he is in the Old Bailey defending a charge of causing death by wanton and furious riding because he had no front brake. In the UK, it's illegal to ride a fixie bike without a front brake. If found guilty, he'll go to jail. Also, I can imagine a massive lawsuit that will keep him in poverty for the rest of his life even if he doesn't go to jail.

Court 11. Notice that in the other courts all the defendants are charged with murder. That's how serious it is. this is the Old Bailey, not your local magistrates court:
https://old-bailey.com/old-bailey-cases-of-interest/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/charlie-alliston-kim-briggs-trial-latest_uk_5995a251e4b0acc593e5ab3f

There will always be lawsuits as long as we have lawyers. HECK, people get sued for trying to help other people who are in some type of danger. The reality of your above situation is you had 1 person being distracted by technology and another person did not have proper brakes setup for his ebike.

As more and more ebikes make it to people in society, we are gonna see more example of accidents. I like the idea of people being responsible, instead of having corrupt govts telling us we can only ride/ own a ebike with 250 watts of power.

 

[SlowCo]

I like the idea of people being responsible, instead of having corrupt govts telling us we can only ride/ own a ebike with 250 watts of power.

I don't like the idea of people riding illegal vehicles that when they crash into me are uninsured and unable to pay the damage and then start blaming the "corrupt govts"...

 

[rumme]

I like the idea of people being responsible, instead of having corrupt govts telling us we can only ride/ own a ebike with 250 watts of power.

I don't like the idea of people riding illegal vehicles that when they crash into me are uninsured and unable to pay the damage and then start blaming the "corrupt govts"...

Your above scenario can happen with any type of non motorized vehicle also. So you support everyone having to pay for tags/ license/ insurance even if they ride
a normal bicycle, since a normal bicycle can do similar damage to another person .

Oh, but a normal bicycle is " legal" you say ? But that doesn't change the fact that MORE people are injured or killed riding NORMAL bicycles, then motorized ones.

Kinda ironic ?

I think its a sad statement upon society, when we are so brainwashed, that we completely rely upon the decisions of corrupt lawmakers, who are not held to the same laws they create for us in society . Why are humans so willing to forgo common sense and proactiveness and replace it with corrupt entities in charge who will tax us , enforce asinine laws upon us, and endlessly charge us fees to do the most common things in a society ?

How about this, maybe the person that was injured in your article, and was not paying attention to their surroundings, due to being on a IPHONE/texting ....needs to buy IPHONE insurance ? Yeah, midas well take it up a few notches and now make it a law that anyone that owns a cell phone/ iPhone needs to buy yearly insurances due to the human race becoming zoned out zombies that cant even focus on walking on the streets, due to their infatuation with their cordless gadgets.

You see how easy it is to apply these moronic laws and fees, to just about anything in life, we use ? This is the problem with corrupt govts, they never know when to draw the line. If they see the potential for additional revenues, then they will create new laws.

So how about it guys ? ...maybe we need new laws mandating everyone to pay for yearly insurance if they own a cell phone or text. We can call it the TEXTING BILL OF 2017 ........it will protect the lives of millions of people....

 

[rumme]

FWIW....I think iphones and texting are MUCH more dangerous then ebikes. I DEMAND ALL CELL PHONE/ IPHONE USERS AND TEXTERS TO PAY FOR YEARLY INSURANCE TO USE THEIR GADGETS, SINCE THEIR ACTIONS REPRESENT A REAL THREAT TO OTHERS IN SOCIETY. :wink:

 

[Chalo]

FWIW....I think iphones and texting are MUCH more dangerous then ebikes. I DEMAND ALL CELL PHONE/ IPHONE USERS AND TEXTERS TO PAY FOR YEARLY INSURANCE TO USE THEIR GADGETS, SINCE THEIR ACTIONS REPRESENT A REAL THREAT TO OTHERS IN SOCIETY. :wink:

I'd go for that, as long as people who don't own motor vehicles, or have self-driving vehicles, are exempt. But it would be tidier to simply hand the externalized costs of driving back to the motorists who cause those costs. As it is, we all pay for their selfishness and folly.

 

[SlowCo]

Reminder for myself: don't feed the troll...

 

[rumme]

Reminder for myself: don't feed the troll...

Once again, I ask you simple questions.

If we need fees and regulations for ebikes that are 300 watts or more in power, BUT..more people get killed or injured using iphones/ texting or riding normal UNMOTORIZED bicycles, then why shouldn't things like iphones/ people who text and use regular bicycles also have to pay for yearly insurance...these people are inuring and killing more people thru their reckless actions, then any ebike owners are.

Tough question isn't it ?

This is the problem with people in society, who constantly agree with BIG CORRUPT GOVT, instituting endless laws and fees upon us.

Hey, I'm happy you think its cool that your nation limits your ebikes to 250 watts or less. It sounds like a socialist dream come true. :wink:

 

[rumme]

FWIW....I think iphones and texting are MUCH more dangerous then ebikes. I DEMAND ALL CELL PHONE/ IPHONE USERS AND TEXTERS TO PAY FOR YEARLY INSURANCE TO USE THEIR GADGETS, SINCE THEIR ACTIONS REPRESENT A REAL THREAT TO OTHERS IN SOCIETY. :wink:

I'd go for that, as long as people who don't own motor vehicles, or have self-driving vehicles, are exempt. But it would be tidier to simply hand the externalized costs of driving back to the motorists who cause those costs. As it is, we all pay for their selfishness and folly.

And I like my ideas better concerning ebikes...

A person should be able to own and ride a ebike over 750 watts , as long as they aren't using that ebike as their main source of commutting, driving on the roads/highways with other vehicles above 25-30 mph . Any person that drives on the sides of the road, or dirt trails, should be considered the same as a normal bicyclists and not have to pay fees or insurance.

Yes, I agree if a person is using a ebike of high power as their regular transportation and riding on the roads { not the side of the roads} with cars/trucks, then those ebikers should consider paying for liability insurance AND, law enforcement should be able to give these ebikers a ticket, if they are going at a high rate of speed , and they are unisured or don't have proper paperwork to use the ebike amongst insured vehicles on the road.

I don't drive on the roads , so why should I pay fees , just because my ebike is over 250/750 watts ? Its a stupid law.

 

[miro13car]

dont know what your point is?
regular bicycle cannot cause accident on the road?
Of course reg bicycle rider can still hit pedestrian and injure him, right?

 

[rumme]

dont know what your point is?
regular bicycle cannot cause accident on the road?
Of course reg bicycle rider can still hit pedestrian and injure him, right?

yes, this is the issue. if a ebike rider is legally demanded to carry and pay for tags, insurance and other fees, because a ebike can cause injury to others, then this same idealogy can be implied to normal bicyclists because they can cause injury or death to others and they currently do so , way more then ebikers.

Once you open up the can of worms, its hard to close it.

I guess it boils down to each society and how much they truly need to have govt interference/laws control their actions. Allowing the govt to have draconian powers over so many things, guarantees more and more fees and regulations and a govt that will always want more and more power and revenue from tax payers.

 

[MadRhino]

If vehicle taxes would be proportionnal to their real cost for worldwide society, very few would still be using a personnal car. People of the western world have no consciousness than their car is killing kids on the other side of the planet.

 

[markz]

I'm 6 feet 8 inches tall, over 300 pounds, and I climb whatever grades I encounter on my bicycles without any electric assist. So 250 extra watts could only help.

That must be 300 pounds of muscle on 6-8 frame.