When Is a Bicycle Not A Bicycle?
- Thread starter Doctorbass
- Start date
rlhunt2
100 mW
I thought it was a well written article but causes a certain amount of quizzyness . The hand writing is on the wall. There will be more regulations coming.
Here in the US as soon as politicians find out they will certainly want to tax both forms of "new" transportation. I can actually see both sides at least for the moment. Usually laws are written because there are a few idiots that endanger themselves and others. Then unfortunately the majority is penalized for the minority actions.
Here in the US as soon as politicians find out they will certainly want to tax both forms of "new" transportation. I can actually see both sides at least for the moment. Usually laws are written because there are a few idiots that endanger themselves and others. Then unfortunately the majority is penalized for the minority actions.
cal3thousand
10 MW
Stealth will be the hot topic in threads soon enough.
MattyCiii
100 kW
Yes stealth will be my #1 design criteria with all my future builds.
For the build I have in progress... Queue Rush's Red Barchetta, only mine's green...
For the build I have in progress... Queue Rush's Red Barchetta, only mine's green...
cruiserbikeman
10 W
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2012
- Messages
- 82
To local governments, anything they can slap a $50 buck registration fee on in addition to making a law requiring you to buy coverage from their insurance industry buddies is by definition not a bicycle.
The fingers
10 TW
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...hl=en&client=safari&sa=N&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1
When it's a hobby horse. :x
When it's a hobby horse. :x
e-beach
10 MW
Well, you know the old saying..."If it is fun then their is a law against it."
dingoEsride
100 kW
rlhunt2 said:
So true, we are always paying for the actions of a few, but if you have pedals use them and keep speeds down to avoid unwanted interest from law pushers
Architectonic
10 kW
For starters, it's not a bicycle if you pedal it and it remains stationary! (aka 'exercise bikes')
Edit - After reading the article, I must admit I don't like the tone at all. Why are they painting ebike users as people who are a nuisance or trying to avoid DUI laws?
Edit - After reading the article, I must admit I don't like the tone at all. Why are they painting ebike users as people who are a nuisance or trying to avoid DUI laws?
Bison_69
100 W
Hi Guys,
Regulations have already started over here in Quebec (Canada) and we are getting pretty limited regarding max speed limited to 32Km/h and power limited to 500W motor...
http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/accident_prevention/bicycle/power_assited_cycle.php
So, DoctorBass will have to be very carefull overhere with his craving and need for speed....on the street
BTW... velias the electric scooter is called a mpKorado E1 and made in Czech republic.
http://www.mpkorado.cz/index.php?page=mpkorado-e1
http://motostratil.sluzby.cz/cms-app/001/234/560/main/images/0x0x0/000/000/404/moped-e1-403938.jpg
Regulations have already started over here in Quebec (Canada) and we are getting pretty limited regarding max speed limited to 32Km/h and power limited to 500W motor...
http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/accident_prevention/bicycle/power_assited_cycle.php
So, DoctorBass will have to be very carefull overhere with his craving and need for speed....on the street
BTW... velias the electric scooter is called a mpKorado E1 and made in Czech republic.
http://www.mpkorado.cz/index.php?page=mpkorado-e1
http://motostratil.sluzby.cz/cms-app/001/234/560/main/images/0x0x0/000/000/404/moped-e1-403938.jpg
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
There was an article in the paper here where a man was arrested for being over the limit while on one a similar bike to the one in the pic. He already had his license taken but because it was classed in Europe as a bicycle there was nothing they could do. Not that I condone such activities, I don't.
I don't think we will ever have the time in Ireland where there will be so many bikes that the law will get all worked up over because our population is only 4.5 million and I see only 2 electric conversions here in my village, of about 800 people, me and my friend Pat. In Carlow, a close but far bigger town with around 13 thousand people,I have never seen even an electric assisted bike.
On my travels through Dublin I've only ever seen 1 converted bicycle with what looked like a golden motor conversion. I have seen a few pedal assist bicycles, I could probably count on my 2 hands.
I get lots of people looking in amazement as they pass me in their cars, it's funny to see peoples reaction.
I think people don't realise the benefits of electric bikes, they think batteries are still rubbish and still have the "memory effect" that's the first thing that's puts people off electric cars is the battery, quiet a lot of people say they wouldn't have one because of their experiences with laptop batteries etc, quiet laughable really.
So I think I will have some years yet before I need to worry. There are very few police here in my local area, I could go weeks without seeing the law around, in factnI can't remember the last time I saw the guards around here.
I don't think we will ever have the time in Ireland where there will be so many bikes that the law will get all worked up over because our population is only 4.5 million and I see only 2 electric conversions here in my village, of about 800 people, me and my friend Pat. In Carlow, a close but far bigger town with around 13 thousand people,I have never seen even an electric assisted bike.
On my travels through Dublin I've only ever seen 1 converted bicycle with what looked like a golden motor conversion. I have seen a few pedal assist bicycles, I could probably count on my 2 hands.
I get lots of people looking in amazement as they pass me in their cars, it's funny to see peoples reaction.
I think people don't realise the benefits of electric bikes, they think batteries are still rubbish and still have the "memory effect" that's the first thing that's puts people off electric cars is the battery, quiet a lot of people say they wouldn't have one because of their experiences with laptop batteries etc, quiet laughable really.
So I think I will have some years yet before I need to worry. There are very few police here in my local area, I could go weeks without seeing the law around, in factnI can't remember the last time I saw the guards around here.
dogman dan
1 PW
Shhh. In New Mexico I'm not a bicycle but a moped. But they haven't set a watt limit yet, just a speed limit. 8) The more ignorant we keep the idiots in the capital the better for me. 
The answer is simple, an Ebike is not a bicycle as soon as your state, province, country, etc says so. Or as in my case, they say there's no such thing as an ebike and all are mopeds. I'm dreading the day NM defines an ebike, no telling which model they'll adopt. Oh boy, 250w anyone? In the mountains?
You get your local ebike law from the salesman, you're an idiot. Everybody, including drunks and others who can't get a licence needs to look up the law themselves, on OFFICIAL state vehicle codes websites. Not the summary that could be decades out of date.
Unfortunately, the no motorized vehicles signs are going up on the new bike trails. So far, the older bike trails are unposted, or say no motor vehicles. Of course, when challenged by civilians, I claim I'm not a motor vehicle. So even if you are a "bike" if the sign says motorized vehicle instead of motor vehicle, your are banned. Then it's a question of does anybody, like cops, care?
The answer is simple, an Ebike is not a bicycle as soon as your state, province, country, etc says so. Or as in my case, they say there's no such thing as an ebike and all are mopeds. I'm dreading the day NM defines an ebike, no telling which model they'll adopt. Oh boy, 250w anyone? In the mountains?
You get your local ebike law from the salesman, you're an idiot. Everybody, including drunks and others who can't get a licence needs to look up the law themselves, on OFFICIAL state vehicle codes websites. Not the summary that could be decades out of date.
Unfortunately, the no motorized vehicles signs are going up on the new bike trails. So far, the older bike trails are unposted, or say no motor vehicles. Of course, when challenged by civilians, I claim I'm not a motor vehicle. So even if you are a "bike" if the sign says motorized vehicle instead of motor vehicle, your are banned. Then it's a question of does anybody, like cops, care?
MadRhino
100 GW
Building stealth is the way to go if you want to ride power without any problems. If it looks like a bicycle, pedals like a bicycle, behave like a bicycle... Then it must be a bicycle, even if it rides fast.
John in CR
100 TW
When is a bicycle not a bicycle?...Only when you add another wheel making it a tricycle, or take one away making it a unicycle. Make friends with the local police so you don't get hassled about how ink dots are arranged on a piece of paper. If you don't want those ink dots rearranged to your detriment, then don't ride on multi-use paths or sidewalks. In the interest of better relations with motorists, don't run stop signs and red lights or other activities that display an attitude of being above the law. Also be considerate even if it means sometimes yielding your legal right of way.
Accept the inevitable though, and something like a $50 one time fee like mopeds get with a 30mph limit (easily stretched to traffic speeds without issue on most roads) would be a dream come true. That's the kind of thing I will try to push for here once rules start being discussed.
John
Accept the inevitable though, and something like a $50 one time fee like mopeds get with a 30mph limit (easily stretched to traffic speeds without issue on most roads) would be a dream come true. That's the kind of thing I will try to push for here once rules start being discussed.
John
TylerDurden
100 GW
Hmmmm... how fast can a moped go on the flats with just pedals?
I'd draw the line just above that: pedal-only faster than 10, 12, mph (whatever excludes Chinese scooters w pedals), you're a bike.
I'd draw the line just above that: pedal-only faster than 10, 12, mph (whatever excludes Chinese scooters w pedals), you're a bike.
john7700
100 W
MadRhino said:
Double "Ayyy" on that one. My bike looks like a bike and as long as I turn the cranks once in a while and don't ride like and arse no one pays me ant mind. Stealth was part of my build due to state laws and unfortunately, that really means leaving the triangle open. To me it is the price I pay for stealth.
dogman dan
1 PW
Amen brother. Once you are not a bike, it can really help to look a hell of a lot like a bike. Like I said, here there is only mopeds. No tag needed, but you do need a valid licence which a DUI will not have. But you can get away with an ebike if you look like a bike easily.
Ride one of those " looks like it needs a licence plate scooters", and the cops that know you have no licence will want to bust you. It helps also, if you don't have every cop in town hating you in the first place. I've been there, and done that, and it's hell. Took 15 years for all those nazis to retire so I could live a normal life.
Ride one of those " looks like it needs a licence plate scooters", and the cops that know you have no licence will want to bust you. It helps also, if you don't have every cop in town hating you in the first place. I've been there, and done that, and it's hell. Took 15 years for all those nazis to retire so I could live a normal life.
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
The "electric scooters with pedals that don't work properly" are illegal in Europe, unless registered as mopeds, AFAIK. European ebike laws are clear, the pedals have to be engaged to get the electric motor to work - stop pedalling and the motor has to stop. Here in the UK we've temporarily got a reprieve from this rule, as we already had an electric bike law in place when the EU came up with theirs. As a consequence we can still use a throttle, but even then these scooters are mostly illegal, usually because if an ebike here has a throttle it's supposed to be less than 200 watts and not capable of more than 15 mph without being pedalled as well.
A few years ago I tried to help a chap out who'd been caught riding one of these "electric scooters with pedals that don't work properly" and failed miserably. He'd bought the scooter in good faith from a dealer in Southampton (who's since disappeared), rode it for a few months to and from work, then got picked up by the police. They didn't charge him, but did tell him to get it registered. I tried for him, but the thing was too unsafe to pass our Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval test and there wasn't an easy way to get it to pass, so the chap scrapped it.
There are still unscrupulous sales folk here importing and selling these things, often via ebay, and I've no doubt that there will be a nationwide clampdown on them before too long.
My view has always been that a DIY over-powered ebike should be a stealthy as possible, hence the reason for my builds barely looking as if they have power. I firmly believe that if we stay low profile, don't arse about on public streets and look as if we're pedalling whenever there are a lot of people around then we'll get away with being technically illegal here, despite the pretty restrictive laws we have.
A few years ago I tried to help a chap out who'd been caught riding one of these "electric scooters with pedals that don't work properly" and failed miserably. He'd bought the scooter in good faith from a dealer in Southampton (who's since disappeared), rode it for a few months to and from work, then got picked up by the police. They didn't charge him, but did tell him to get it registered. I tried for him, but the thing was too unsafe to pass our Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval test and there wasn't an easy way to get it to pass, so the chap scrapped it.
There are still unscrupulous sales folk here importing and selling these things, often via ebay, and I've no doubt that there will be a nationwide clampdown on them before too long.
My view has always been that a DIY over-powered ebike should be a stealthy as possible, hence the reason for my builds barely looking as if they have power. I firmly believe that if we stay low profile, don't arse about on public streets and look as if we're pedalling whenever there are a lot of people around then we'll get away with being technically illegal here, despite the pretty restrictive laws we have.
I've seen maybe a half dozen ebikes, mostly scooter style, in my area. I don't think the law is much of an issue here since there are so few ebikes around. There are laws against riding bicycles on the sidewalks here yet many people do it including myself at times and it's not enforced. The only time I feel I really need to be careful is when riding at speeds above 50 kph since it becomes much more conspicuous going that fast on a bicycle.
If staying around normal bicycle speeds with a stealthy setup nobody would even realize the bike was motorized. I agree with Jeremy as long as we're riding inconspicuously we should remain under the radar.
If staying around normal bicycle speeds with a stealthy setup nobody would even realize the bike was motorized. I agree with Jeremy as long as we're riding inconspicuously we should remain under the radar.
DrStrangelove
1 µW
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2012
- Messages
- 2
Here in France, the law is pretty clear : if it has 2 or 3 wheels and is propelled by the rider, then it's a bicycle. Trikes are bicycles too. There are a few extras : 2 mandatory brakes, lights if it's dark, reflectors, that kind of stuff.
As for e-bikes, the limit is 250W, 25 km/h, and the motor must only run if you pedal. In this case, legally it's a bike. Above that, it's a moped.
As far as I'm concerned, if I can pedal the thing (without motor) to the local equivalent of Home Depot and come back with 2x 10 kg bags of mortar in less than 1h30, then it's a bike. Of course, the store is 15km away on the other side of a 400m high hill, so this puts some conditions, which seem to exclude Dutch 3-speed "urban" bikes, and also anything that can't corner at 60 km/h downhill with a load of stuff on the rack, like upright trikes, etc.
The 250W limit (decided by the idiots in power in Brussels) has an interesting consequence, it turns all hub motor ebikes into Dutch e-bikes unable to climb any kind of (even wimpy) hill, cause the motor isn't powerful enough to run 25kph uphill, so you'll go 10 kph, efficiency drops from 80 to 30%, and it overheats then stalls, then you got to leg it. I thought the motor was supposed to help specifically uphill... but no, those only work on the flats. To get over serious hills, a 1500W hub motor is needed so it can always stay at its optimum speed and efficiency (unless the rider is very fat or carries lots of heavy stuff, in which case you need more).
So here if you want an e-bike that can actually climb (which is the point IMHO) you need a crank motor which will cost about €1000 more. Since this motor uses the gears it will work at optimum efficiency even at 10kph and will get over that mountain without burning.
I'd like to get an ebike (or a propane bike) for commuting to the city, cause some days I don't feel like sweating. But for me it would have to bring some advantages, namely make it faster to climb the 10-15% (and especially the little bit at more than 15%) slopes on the way. I'd have to pay 2000€ for that, and that's a bit stiff. I'd much rather add a Cyclone motor to my current bike, but the idiots made kits illegal too !
As for e-bikes, the limit is 250W, 25 km/h, and the motor must only run if you pedal. In this case, legally it's a bike. Above that, it's a moped.
As far as I'm concerned, if I can pedal the thing (without motor) to the local equivalent of Home Depot and come back with 2x 10 kg bags of mortar in less than 1h30, then it's a bike. Of course, the store is 15km away on the other side of a 400m high hill, so this puts some conditions, which seem to exclude Dutch 3-speed "urban" bikes
, and also anything that can't corner at 60 km/h downhill with a load of stuff on the rack, like upright trikes, etc.The 250W limit (decided by the idiots in power in Brussels) has an interesting consequence, it turns all hub motor ebikes into Dutch e-bikes unable to climb any kind of (even wimpy) hill, cause the motor isn't powerful enough to run 25kph uphill, so you'll go 10 kph, efficiency drops from 80 to 30%, and it overheats then stalls, then you got to leg it. I thought the motor was supposed to help specifically uphill... but no, those only work on the flats. To get over serious hills, a 1500W hub motor is needed so it can always stay at its optimum speed and efficiency (unless the rider is very fat or carries lots of heavy stuff, in which case you need more).
So here if you want an e-bike that can actually climb (which is the point IMHO) you need a crank motor which will cost about €1000 more. Since this motor uses the gears it will work at optimum efficiency even at 10kph and will get over that mountain without burning.
I'd like to get an ebike (or a propane bike) for commuting to the city, cause some days I don't feel like sweating. But for me it would have to bring some advantages, namely make it faster to climb the 10-15% (and especially the little bit at more than 15%) slopes on the way. I'd have to pay 2000€ for that, and that's a bit stiff. I'd much rather add a Cyclone motor to my current bike, but the idiots made kits illegal too !
