Wilderness Energy Misunderstanding

[hubmotormark]

About ten years ago, I purchased a Wilderness Energy Bike Electrified kit, with a Brushless-Gearless motor for my front wheel.
The hubmotor got stored in a hot attic for several years before I got bitten by the ebike bug again a couple weeks ago. I took the bike out for its maiden voyage with hubmotor installed, only to hear a "CLACKA-DACKA-CLACK-CLACK" coming from the hubmotor, followed by a blown fuse. With this noise, the hub instantly was almost frozen solid...almost impossible to rotate the wheel.

Having taken the hub apart, I found what I expected to find.....nine out of ten permanent magnets had jumped the English Channel and were now firmly stuck to the stator. One lonely magnet remained on the rotor, lol.

So, I resigned myself to further disassembly and inspection of the motor, the plan now being to clean the old failed glue from the rotor and magnets and re-attach the magnets.

What I did not expect to find was brushes in my hubmotor! There they were, two brushes and a commutator, plain as day! The invoice and the user manual, by model number, specifically identified the hubmotor as "brushless-gearless," so it never crossed my mind that my hubmotor was something other than what was promised.

I guess the above issue is not nearly as serious as other episodes of Chinese deceptive practices, say for example, melamine in my dog's chow, and I'm trying to not be pissed about this. Nonetheless, this episode kinda sets me back a bit in my willingness to trust Chinese marketing....again.

I'm wondering, has anyone else here had a similar experience?

Thanks for reading,

Mark

 

[ax57ax57]

I've never been a fan of Chinese-made consumer products, in fact I'll scrutinize a label in a store in hopes of finding a U.S.-made alternative. Having said that though, I do have to give the Chinese credit for making great strides in quality control in the 10 years since you bought that bike.

With regard to electric bikes, I don't think that we'd have affordable kits today without the Chinese, and I do think that they try to improve their products based upon feedback from end users and forums such as this one.

 

[Rassy]

Don't know why I even bother responding here, but...

Condemning all Chinese vendors because a Los Angeles, USA vendor sent you an incorrectly labeled product 10 years ago? You sound knowledgeable about motors but didn't question that a motor that had only had two wires (+ and -) couldn't be a brushless motor? You successfully used a $200 motor for seven years and now feel you were cheated?

Around 10 years ago I purchased 6 36V brushed hub motors from Wilderness Energy. I was very disappointed when they went out of business, as they were a good inexpensive source of e-bike parts in the USA. All of those motors have been given away, but my Son's Wife has one on the front of her delta trike, which is still running strong on the original 36V controller powered by a 48V Ping battery.

Another one is mounted in a 16" wheel on a diy one wheel trailer that pushes a hand-cycle, also powered by a 48V Ping battery. This one is used almost daily, and in fact I'll be meeting up with him this coming Saturday to take part in a charity ride in Powers, Oregon.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Wilderness Energy motors have changed a lot of the past few years. The quality is now much better.

 

[hubmotormark]

Rassy,

Thanks for your reply, and you make a good point about the durability of Chinese-made stuff, and I concur, their quality control has very much improved over the past few years.

It's also true, the two-wire axle harness should have tipped me off, but it is only recently, since getting re-bitten by the ebike bug, that I learned the differences between brushed and brushless.

I did indeed get my money's worth out of the motor, but still, I feel the product was more than mis-labeled. The company brochure by model number, the product owner manual, by model number and the invoice each and all indicated a brushless motor.

I'm hoping that the Chinese have improved their integrity and accountability in sales and marketing as much as they have their technical and quality control.

 

[amberwolf]

I did indeed get my money's worth out of the motor, but still, I feel the product was more than mis-labeled. The company brochure by model number, the product owner manual, by model number and the invoice each and all indicated a brushless motor.

Just to re-point out what Rassy said, in a different way:

That motor/kit could easily have left China labelled correctly, then been altered by the place that sold it to you, for many reasons (one being they might not have had the right version available and decided rather htan lose a sale, just relabel one they did have and send it. Almost no one that buys these things would ever know or find out. :/

The same, of course, coudl have happened anywhere along the supply chain....

Just one possibility of many.

 

[dogman dan]

Not too surprised the motor did what it did. Magnets detaching was a common problem with the brushed Aotema motor that WE sold.

A bit surprised they sent you the brushed kit when you paid for the brushless. They'd have fixed the problem if you had noticed a bit sooner. Their CS was slow, but honest. Somebody just grabbed the wrong box, ten years ago.

WE did practice some deceptions in their ads, which many imitate today. I really believed their kit, with lead battery would go 20mph for 20 miles. More like 5 miles. But it did go 25 mph. They also said a brushed motor would climb hills better, when the fact was the brushless one climbed a hill faster, and with less overheating.

 

[arkmundi]

To a large degree, hub motors come from China and a motor you buy from anyone more than likely comes from China. There are lots of independent companies, large & small, old & new. It is not the sourcing of a motor from China that matters. Its the sourcing of a motor from a reputable retail vendor. In a few instances, like with the Leaf Motor, the retailer is a Chinese manufacturer, but most often its an independent vendor. Equal consideration needs to be made about not just what you buy, but from whom you buy it. A reputable vendor will stand behind their product with service, support and warranty. And they won't misrepresent their product.

 

[Rassy]

Dogman Dan said:

They also said a brushed motor would climb hills better, when the fact was the brushless one climbed a hill faster, and with less overheating.

Yeah, that was why I purchased the brushed motors instead of the brushless. I needed to get up a 20% grade on a 26" bicycle. It didn't work with just a front hub motor, but by the time I had two motors on a pusher trailer plus the front motor and the trailer full of sla all running at 36V from a single throttle it "made the grade".

That was before I joined ES and now it's fun to compare that setup to my newest trike running a little 500W 48V Bafang crank drive powered by an 11 pound 10AH Ping battery. And I'm still looking forward to big improvements in batteries!

 

[hubmotormark]

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, My Bad, My Bad....

I have changed the title of my original post to "Wilderness Energy Misunderstanding" because, after another re-read of the hubmotor's printed materials, I have discovered I had misunderstood said printed materials, all these years!

Dunno how a brain fart could have lasted for 10 years, but there ya go....

So to be clear, Wilderness Energy had sent me the correct merchandise, correctly labeled and correctly documented.

I still don't appreciate melamine in my dog's food, though.....(just keeding!!)

Mark

 

[Rassy]

Good post Mark. And by the way, welcome to the forum and I hope you gain as much from it as I have over the years.

 

[hubmotormark]

Rassy,

Thank you very much, I appreciate the input and the welcoming!

Question: would you folks be interested in photos and a narrative on this board regarding the repair of my old (((brushed))) hubmotor?

Thanks again,
Mark

 

[docnjoj]

Hi Mark and welcome to "The Sphere"! The only problem I have with brushed motors is that if they or the controller get wet, they can go full open throttle. I don't have a high power trike but when I had my brushed motor(s) on I had several "runaways". Usually they ran into the steps when we were returning from a ride but if I used high power it could have been dangerous. I have 3 brushed hub motors sitting in my shed, but I won't use them because of this. Brushless motors seem not to do this and fail open circuit so they just stop.
otherDoc

 

[Hillhater]

......The only problem I have with brushed motors is that if they or the controller get wet, they can go full open throttle. .
otherDoc

That would have to be a controller , or throttle failure.
I have had several brush systems, many failures, always stone dead stopped ! :?
So, not a general failure mode .

 

[amberwolf]

Question: would you folks be interested in photos and a narrative on this board regarding the repair of my old (((brushed))) hubmotor?

Yes, such things are always welcome, as they may help another person fix theirs later.

Too few people are willing to share their complete repair (or build) process, or in fact even come back to tell us how it worked out.

Dunno how a brain fart could have lasted for 10 years, but there ya go....

Some of them are just really really stinky.


OT:

I still don't appreciate melamine in my dog's food, though.....(just keeding!!)

Me, either--the store I work at stopped carrying any "made in china" treats or edibles (still have chewtoys/etc though ) sometime last year, because of the number of recalls and customer complaints (and illnesses, etc) from such product. Unfortunately there've been just as many with the USA-made ones, as the QC and whatnot of those isn't always better than the non-USA stuff. :/

However...some of the USA-made stuff still uses bulk "protein supplement" stuff of various kinds that comes from China, and *that* is where the melamine contamination comes in...because melamine apparently causes the protein tests to register higher levels than are really there. So even though it's toxic to people and animals, it was used by profit-motivated businesses to keep them from having to put *real* (and more costly) protein sources in the bulk stuff so they can keep costs down and/or make more profit). I don't know if it has happened again since the time a few years ago where quite a few canned dog foods were affected because they were all made at the same cannery. (some of those companies, like Nutro, stopped using 3rd parties to make stuff and started their own canneries to avoid this problem. Others just started doing more of their own testing before shipping the stuff made elsewhere).

I have heard (but not done any research beyond a quick google) that this has caused some infant deaths and illnesses in China itself, as this "trick" was also used in baby milk.

 

[hubmotormark]

Hmmmm......

I certainly would NOT want to have a wide-open runaway with my motor, no thanks!

I did think of such an event, while designing my old-school, non-electronic relay pack motor control circuitry. I installed a quick-disconnect on the motor leads within easy reach, in case of a wide-open meltdown.

Having misplaced my old controller and thumb-throttle , when it came time to install the hubmotor on my new trike, there was no money to purchase a replacement controller and throttle. I opted instead to design a motor control system using parts I had on hand. I guesspose, if one of my relays were to weld itself closed, a runaway would be possible, but my on/off relays are redundant, so hopefully such a meltdown would not occur. Nonetheless, me gots me quick disconnect....

Mark

 

[hubmotormark]

Question: would you folks be interested in photos and a narrative on this board regarding the repair of my old (((brushed))) hubmotor?

Yes, such things are always welcome, as they may help another person fix theirs later.

Too few people are willing to share their complete repair (or build) process, or in fact even come back to tell us how it worked out.

Well, Okay then....

I shall post the photos and text of the project, when competed, provided it works!

If it doesn't work, then, uh.....nevermind!! :lol:

(sorry about the quote within a quote....too tired to figure out how to edit the code!

Mark

 

[amberwolf]

If you have the time, it'd be more fun/interesting to watch as you go thru the stages (and you can of course ask for help too).

I certainly would NOT want to have a wide-open runaway with my motor, no thanks!

That's the only real reason my CrazyBike2 still has it's main circuit breaker/switch right there between my knees--originally I had brushed controller and powerchair motor using a chain drive, with enough torque to destroy things (which it did several times due to misalignments and frame flex), so the brakes could not completely stop the bike with motor at WOT...I never had to use it, but I had it there just in case, after having seeen this sort of thing on others' EVs. :/

 

[Hillhater]

Hmmmm......

I certainly would NOT want to have a wide-open runaway with my motor, no thanks!

I did think of such an event, while designing my old-school, non-electronic relay pack motor control circuitry.
, ..... I guesspose, if one of my relays were to weld itself closed, a runaway would be possible, but my on/off relays are redundant, so hopefully such a meltdown would not occur. Nonetheless, me gots me quick disconnect....

Mark

Wow ! yes be prepared !
I once did a similar thing ..high amp relays for a "redneck" controller..... Contacts welded closed within a few starts !
Secondary cut out is essential......you will use it !

 

[Rassy]

Just for the record, I think we should always be prepared for a WOT incident. My first one was after I started using brushless motors, due to a fault in the throttle wiring. My disk brakes were sufficient to override the motor, and the controller shut down fairly quickly, probably a heat sensor. Now I always include at least one cut off switch that I can reach, but if it's just a controller cut off I expect it could also fail. When I set up my old delta trike with the brushed WE hub for my Daughter-In-Law I put one of those DC circuit breakers with the on/off switch between the controller and motor on the frame just in front of the seat.

 

[whatever]

brushed motor = two wires
brushless motor = 3 thick 5 thin ( or just 3 if no hall sensors)
easy to tell apart

 

[dogman dan]

When you go to stick those magnets back, if not too late, mark them so they go back the same way as before. The poles need to be aligned right, or the motor will run with poor power, and heat like mad.

The poles are not the ends of the magnet, but rather one side or the other of the short side, along the curve. They need to be all the norths facing the same way if I remember it right. (it was 2008)

Never mind the brain fart, my house reeks all the time now. That invoice likely has a code, BD36 for brushed.

 

[hubmotormark]

When you go to stick those magnets back, if not too late, mark them so they go back the same way as before. The poles need to be aligned right, or the motor will run with poor power, and heat like mad.

The poles are not the ends of the magnet, but rather one side or the other of the short side, along the curve. They need to be all the norths facing the same way if I remember it right. (it was 2008)

Great point, Dogman!!....methinks I would not have thought of the polarity issue myself. As such, when taking the motor apart, it never occurred to me to note the magnets' polarity.

It just so happens, I have a magnetic polarity tester in my toolbox, and it's not too late, haven't yet started re-installing the magnets, so your post was totally timely.

Question: If it turns out that I install the magnets in reverse polarity from what they were OEM, will the motor run backwards?

Thanks again,

Mark

 

[dogman dan]

Good question. I'm not sure of that answer, but I think it would. The one I had never lost all the magnets. My problem was re installing some that came out, different than the orientation of the remaining ones.

 

[spinningmagnets]

would you folks be interested in photos

YES! open it up and take lots of pics!