Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[Slowchris11]

If you look at the US politics it seems that one of the two parties, that succesfully worked over decades for Amerika, has become infected with a terrible virus, turning most of them into intollerant anti democratic zombies, blindly following a brain dead criminal.
By the way, there is no "a little intollerant".

 

[JackFlorey]

Instead of mocking, try pointing out facts to see if they really understand the issue or are just repeating common myths or misinformation.

Or just do the thing that they claim is impossible. The renewables industry has been doing that for decades.

 

[Hillhater]

Or just do the thing that they claim is impossible. The renewables industry has been doing that for decades.

…….And, …have yet to succeed in providing a reliable, continuous, economic , power supply that comes anywhere close to supplying even 5% of the worlds electricity needs.

 

[Hillhater]

what the US power industry has SHOWN is that it takes them 16-20 years to build a new reactor. That's not an attack on nuclear reactors. That's proven reality.

“Reality.” …For the USA maybe ?
others are not so tardy it seems….

the erection of China׳s CEFR reactor lasted 135 months, whereas the Chinese TIANWAN-2 reactor took only 80 months, which amounts to a difference of 55 months to be explained. Or consider France where the building of the Gravelines-4 reactor was completed in only 63 months, ST.LAURENT-B-1 in 57 months, ST.LAURENT-B-2 in 60 months, contrarily to the finalization of the fast breeder reactor Super-Phenix 110 months were necessary. Germany completed the Grafenrheinfeld reactor within 84

currently China has a program of 8-10 new reactors coming on stream every year with a 50 month timeline between first pour and fueling.

Median construction time for nuclear reactors 2022 | Statista

Nuclear reactors connected to the grid in 2022 had a median construction time of 89 months or almost 7.5 years.

www.statista.com

 

[JackFlorey]

“Reality.” …For the USA maybe ?

Yep. We should not be doing everything we can to emulate China (or Russia) at this point IMO. They place a rather different priority on the well being of their citizens.

 

[JackFlorey]

…….And, …have yet to succeed in providing a reliable, continuous, economic , power supply that comes anywhere close to supplying even 5% of the worlds electricity needs.

Solar and wind supplies 13% of US electrical needs now. And solar/wind is, by a factor of 2, the cheapest form of new power. And here in California, we now have 8GW of storage capacity, or 15% of our total generation capacity. Together, solar+storage is competitive in price with natural gas. (Unsubsidized LCOE: solar+storage 46-102 Gas CCS 39-101 Gas peaker 115-221, all $/MWhr per Lazard 2023)

Heck, I even do it myself, and I pay $6 a month for power. (About to go up since they are raising the minimum charge.)

So yes, it's quite doable. We are doing it. Now the rest of the world just has to catch up with the leaders. Or just get out of the way.

 

[Hillhater]

Yep. We should not be doing everything we can to emulate China (or Russia) at this point IMO. They place a rather different priority on the well being of their citizens

So, Ignoring France, Germany, and the rest of the worlds Nuclear users ?

And solar/wind is, by a factor of 2, the cheapest form of new power. And here in California, we now have 8GW of storage capacity,

Cheapest ?.. Nope, never was, and never will be !….but carry on fooling yourself .
How is it Ca has the highest power price in the US.?
Power that is not available when needed, intermittent, or unreliable …..ends up being very expensive.
8.0 GWh of storage is good for about 10 mins of Ca peak demand on a still summer evening.
Germany has been the leader in switching to Wind &Solar with 100% W & S capacity installed.
Unfortunately , that also resulted in them having the worlds highest power price ….…..
….and rolling blackouts !

 

[nicobie]

My town (Lompoc, CA) charges .14 kWh day & night with a $3.65/mo min. for solar users.

 

[JackFlorey]

So, Ignoring France, Germany, and the rest of the worlds Nuclear users ?

?? No. I was answering you. You said "currently China has a program of 8-10 new reactors . . . ." Did you forget what you said?

Cheapest ?.. Nope, never was, and never will be !….but carry on fooling yourself .

The facts disagree with you. When it comes to who to believe, I will believe facts over Internet wags any day.

Power that is not available when needed, intermittent, or unreliable …..ends up being very expensive.

Which is why I quoted solar plus storage.

Do you know how storage works?

 

[Hillhater]

China was just one example, accompanied by the rest of the world data which AVERAGES 88 months build time.

The facts disagree with you

which facts exactly ?..
..California high electricity prices ?
…highest electricity prices in Europe, Germany , Denmark, Italy ?
,…all being the countries with the highest level of Wind/solar in their generation..?
here in Au with every new push for more Wind and Solar ( and every closure of Coal generators) we see the power prices increase rapidly (+30% this year alone !)

Do you know how storage works?

Sure, .. but do you know how much is needed to ensure a stable power supply for Ca alone ?
that 8GWh of storage being only a token gesture, and not a effective support for a reliable grid ?

 

[JackFlorey]

which facts exactly ?..
..California high electricity prices ?
…highest electricity prices in Europe, Germany , Denmark, Italy ?
,…all being the countries with the highest level of Wind/solar in their generation..?

Nope. The actual prices people are paying for solar and storage. Those facts.

Sure, .. but do you know how much is needed to ensure a stable power supply for Ca alone ?

that 8GWh of storage being only a token gesture, and not a effective support for a reliable grid ?

Once again, I believe in reality over overheated, hysterical fearmongerong. We were told that California would experience massive rolling blackouts last summer due to our reliance on solar and wind, and the introduction of EV's. People would swelter in the sun and freeze in the dark. That, in reality, did not happen - despite one of the hottest summers on record. That was due to storage.

Good overview for you to ignore: Op-Ed: California's giant new batteries kept the lights on during the heat wave

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Hillhater and Ian are proving my point, that there's groups of people there's no purpose to speak or talk to outside of "We're doing this now, deal with it" when it comes to serious issues because they just refuse to even accept reality; I before have watched hill twist himself into a pretzel when I showed that Iowa makes more than half it's power from wind, and as a more prescient example with this comment:

You argued against what i said then enforced it, i dont just have gay friends i have family too so i have no issues with men that have differing flavour tastes to my own but i do have issue with children been dragged down a rabbit hole too theres much wrong with progresive policy that i dont think this thread is intended for.

But to ignore the state of politics the driving force behind the mess some countrys are in is insane the problem is the U.S is so insulated from the world and its beliefs that many follow from heart not knowledge or self decision more hurd mentaility.

Apparently, fighting against a political party that is openly calling for open violence against LGBT+ persons and taking their rights is "Herd mentality". Let's ignore the fact that you can still be a proponent of something and also openly critical of it (shocker I know)- what keeps your rights from being taken? If you're silent on rights being taken from one, you'll likely be silent when rights are being taken from others. Don't forget the same party that is behind this anti-gay propaganda is also behind opposition to bike lanes, renewable energy, electric vehicles... literally all the things you're here on this forum to learn about and explore as a hobby. To hear that from someone claiming I'm "ignoring the state of politics" is projection. Or cope.

TL;DR: Don't talk to idiots, they're not worth your time. Don't be doubting yourself when chuds like these are afraid of your potential.

 

[Hillhater]

The actual prices people are paying for solar and storage. Those facts.

No Jack, we are talking the prices are the average Californian is paying for grid supply.!

We were told that California would experience massive rolling blackouts last summer due to our reliance on solar and wind, and the introduction of EV's. People would swelter in the sun and freeze in the dark. That, in reality, did not happen - despite one of the hottest summers on record. That was due to storage.

Again.. a little economical with the truth !
Sure the batteries helped,..reportedly ( acording to your LAT link ) supplying 2 GW for 3 hours, but that was not the full picture…!
At the same time “Demand Management” …( you know , ..customers being told to shut off ACs, pool pumps, not charge their EVs, industry stopping operations for peak periods , etc).. had already reduced the peak by 4+ GW and then there is the not insignificant contribution of IMPORTED power from other states (25+% of all electricity consumed in Ca !)
So , forgive me if i am not impressed with 8 GW (???) of battery storage.
And could someone please point out that battery capacity is quoted in GWh ,…not GW. !

 

[JackFlorey]

No Jack, we are talking the prices are the average Californian is paying for grid supply.!

No, you were talking about cheap sources of power. Not what people are paying for power. People don't pay for sources of power; they don't pay a little for solar and a little for nuclear. They pay a power BILL which is created by a power company.

And if you don't understand the difference between how much a source costs and what greedy companies do to make as much as they can, well . . . you're not going to understand most of modern economics.

Sure the batteries helped

Exactly. And they will continue to do so.

At the same time “Demand Management” …( you know , ..customers being told to shut off ACs, pool pumps, not charge their EVs, industry stopping operations for peak periods , etc)

Yeah, I know. You know how I do it? I dump my battery power back to the grid for that hour. So do thousands of other people.

Again, storage saves the day.

And could someone please point out that battery capacity is quoted in GWh ,…not GW. !

Nope. Battery POWER is rated in GW. Battery STORAGE is rated in GWhr. I was quoting POWER.

 

[Hillhater]

No, you were talking about cheap sources of power. Not what people are paying for power. People don't pay for sources of power; they don't pay a little for solar and a little for nuclear. They pay a power BILL which is created by a power company.

“Cheap sources of power”..??…where did you read that ?
I was refering to Ca’s average utility supply cost , compared to other surrounding States similar costs.…..
..the highest on the West coast Since the introduction of Wind and Solar generation.!
Im sure you can check that fact yourself .

You know how I do it? I dump my battery power back to the grid

that is not demand management…. that is no different to any other battery back up.

Again, storage saves the day.

and again i remind you…during that period…
battery support… 2.6 GW peak
Demand management peak reduction…3-4 GW peak
Imported power support ..7.6 GW
Renewables. 4.3 GW
Nat Gas..26 GW
….So Batteries were not exactly the main contributor to “saving the day”.
..that honour would be better atributed to the other states supporting the failure of the Renewables (and batteries) to provide sufficient power when required !
…or even good old Fossil Gas for continuing to prop up a ineffective power generation system.

Battery STORAGE is rated in GWhr. I was quoting POWER.

Were you ?…

And here in California, we now have 8GW of storage capacity,

? Sure looked to me like you were quoting “STORAGE capacity” !

 

[JackFlorey]

“Cheap sources of power”..??…where did you read that ?

In your post.

We've been over all this before, and I'm certainly not going to convince you that what is actually happening in the world is actually happening. And I'm not worried about it, because it will continue to happen whether you believe it or not. In that sense you remind me of this guy:

 

[Ianhill]

Hillhater and Ian are proving my point, that there's groups of people there's no purpose to speak or talk to outside of "We're doing this now, deal with it" when it comes to serious issues because they just refuse to even accept reality; I before have watched hill twist himself into a pretzel when I showed that Iowa makes more than half it's power from wind, and as a more prescient example with this comment:

Apparently, fighting against a political party that is openly calling for open violence against LGBT+ persons and taking their rights is "Herd mentality". Let's ignore the fact that you can still be a proponent of something and also openly critical of it (shocker I know)- what keeps your rights from being taken? If you're silent on rights being taken from one, you'll likely be silent when rights are being taken from others. Don't forget the same party that is behind this anti-gay propaganda is also behind opposition to bike lanes, renewable energy, electric vehicles... literally all the things you're here on this forum to learn about and explore as a hobby. To hear that from someone claiming I'm "ignoring the state of politics" is projection. Or cope.

TL;DR: Don't talk to idiots, they're not worth your time. Don't be doubting yourself when chuds like these are afraid of your potential.

I'll protect my fellow human with my life, ive stood up when many have not in situations thats putting myself in danger so i have a great respect for anyone what ever they beliefs i dont think a good beat down is the answer far from it im all for integration but theres a limit to how adaptive one can be within a generation, maybe your area is vastly different to my own but i dont disgard your opinion just opens my eyes a little but i do wish some could put life into perspective and stop fighting for everything and try enjoy a little along the way rather than find a persons guilt and a
label.

Im very capable of listening its how ive learnt my trade and found the website to begin with and from now on how ill use the site only.

And by the way ive not argued against renewables ive said that nuclear is vital for the foreseeable future but ive never argued to keep old generation reactors alive if anything i enjoy change and been proven wrong it means im still capable of learning ive never been a big head or ever will dont be quick to judge those you know little about ive not judged you or said your a lost cause so maybe you need to grow up a little ah.

 

[Hillhater]

In your post.

Where ?….When ?

“I'm certainly not going to convince you that what is actually happening in the world is actually happening.”…..

I see what is happening Jack, but I conclude differently to you
I cannot understand how anybody of average intelegence can not accept the published data that clearly shows how every country that has reduced fossil fuel generation and installed significant Wind and Solar, has resulted in both abnormal increases in power costs and reduced reliability of supply.
Further, the significance of high energy costs on the increasing costs of living….most all commodities…is obvious, concerning, and cannot be ignored.

 

[JackFlorey]

I cannot understand how anybody of average intelegence can not accept the published data that clearly shows how every country that has reduced fossil fuel generation and installed significant Wind and Solar, has resulted in both abnormal increases in power costs and reduced reliability of supply.

1876: "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication." — William Orton, President of Western Union.

1889: “Fooling around with alternating current (AC) is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever.” — Thomas Edison

1903: “The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty – a fad.” — President of the Michigan Savings Bank

1921: “The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular?” - Associates of David Sarnoff

1946: "Television won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night." — Darryl Zanuck, 20th Century Fox.

 

[Hillhater]

random and irrelavent quotes .
Do you not accept that Ca’s power prices are increasing, whilst the threat of blackouts and demand restrictions has also increased ?

 

[nicobie]

random and irrelavent quotes .
Do you not accept that Ca’s power prices are increasing, whilst the threat of blackouts and demand restrictions has also increased ?

I live on the CA coast in Santa Barbara county. This is arguably the place where environmentalism started. I pay .14/kWh. You can compare that fairably with mose parts of the world. My price has increased less than the inflation rate for as long as I can remember. (knock on wood)

 

[Hillhater]

I live on the CA coast in Santa Barbara county. This is arguably the place where environmentalism started. I pay .14/kWh. You can compare that fairably with mose parts of the world. My price has increased less than the inflation rate for as long as I can remember. (knock on wood)

Well no actually, you cannot compare that fairly with any part of the world, since it is just one individual data point.
But consider yourself lucky..you are not the “average“ residential utility consumer in Ca who is paying 29.78c/kWh , according to the eia….

Electric Power Monthly - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

…and if you know how averages work, its fair to assume some folk in Ca must be paying much more than 30c/kWh !

 

[nicobie]

Yes, I am lucky that my town (Lompoc) gets it's power from wind and geothermal. We might have a backup source for acts of god, but I'm not sure.

 

[Hillhater]

Wind projects being shut down due to escalating costs and technical problems..

Giant windfarm off Norfolk coast halted due to spiralling costs

Swedish energy giant Vattenfall says costs have climbed 40% due to rise in global gas prices

www.theguardian.com

Vattenfall are not the only company backing out of windfarm projects both in Europe and the USA.

Equinor Shelves Floating Wind Project Offshore Norway

Equinor will postpone a further development of the Trollvind offshore wind initiative off Norway indefinitely.

www.offshorewind.biz

. Offshore wind installations have to be one of the highest risk ventures possible. We have seen what Natures Ocean power can do to massive ships, oil rigs, shorelines, and similar solid structures,…
…..so expecting a 200 mtr floating tower …with a 100ton turbine nacel perched on top, ..to survive trouble free for 10-20 yrs , is a real test of faith !

 

[UtahPete]

random and irrelavent quotes .
Do you not accept that Ca’s power prices are increasing, whilst the threat of blackouts and demand restrictions has also increased ?

Even if you're right (you're not), so what?