xtracycle freeloader review, from an eBike perspective.

[neptronix]

OK, got the xtracycle in and i am not too impressed.
Let me list my gripes, in order :lol:

Motor just barely doesn't fit. Maybe with a different frame, this could work.
I did not expect the motor to fit, so i guess this isn't really a complaint :lol:

uhhh.... so this is how you "secure" it to the frame. I added a fatter washer below the stock washer. This bolt is has a rather small diameter considering the job it needs to do..

Here is the bottom of that mount ( i know i have it backwards ). OK, this is actually well thought out but i also added another fatter washer here. the stock washer is tiny and barely grips this custom piece.

I feel like this is a poor linkage - cmon, some serious weight is going to rest on this. As a 240lb rider with ~75lbs of electric stuff to add, this worries me.

Here is another fine WTF. The bolt that goes through the xtracycle to attach it to the bike's kickstand area? it wiggles around, and is the loosest part in the entire equation here. This could be the sole reason why people complain about side-side flex with this unit.

Okay, now let's talk about the dropout mounts.... hey, why are these bolts so loose? it's like they gave me metric bolts instead of american, or the bolts are 1-2mm too small.. they just rock around inside.

This insert that clamps to the dropouts is rather weak, also it is not wide enough and rocks around inside the xtracycle mount.... seems to have 1-2mm of motion as well.

Max weight rating is 200lbs.

Now i know why so many people ( but not everyone ) complain about this being a flexy setup. All the hardware to attach it is the wrong size and loose as hell! This can be corrected with a little grinding, some new bolts, and some new nuts.

Another thing.. this attachment ultimately lowers the bike a little. So if you were connecting it to a 26" wheel frame, you'd want to use 700c wheels. I wanted to use 20" wheels with this and thought i could angle it so that i could get some rear lift.. that is not the case here

Allright, now how about some positives... :lol:

+ 4.5lbs, excluding the weight of the hardware makes this attachment really light in relation to how much it can carry.
+ The paint/finish is nice.
+ Disc brake tabs and pretty meaty rear dropouts.. looks like they could handle a low powered hub pretty easily.
+ All the hardware you need is included, including a kickstand. This is a complete package for the most part.
+ The company that produces it is really cool.

Summary: from an eBike perspective, i wouldn't trust this for higher speeds, but maybe 20mph or so would be just fine as a high torque, legal speed hauler. Even for normal usage, i'd replace a lot of the hardware.

 

[neptronix]

Wow, xtracycle sales rep contacted me. He is going to be checking this thread out to see the problems with hardware i had & talked about potentially doing a buyback.

He's said that it's possible that my hardware kit was bogus. So we'll see.

 

[joe tomten]

I have an xtracycle attached to an electra townie that i use as my commuter/work vehicle.

Works great. Carry 2 kids for 20 miles. Carry 150 lbs of feed. Carry any gear that i need to carry. Carry 2 pallets home if i want to.

With the crank forward townie low COG format - the whole rig is extremely stable at very low speeds, docile even.

But the long wheel base makes the whole ride very stable at speed, and you don't even really notice the elongated rig trailing along behind you.

I run a 48v 30 ahr system, 9C 2807 rear hub with a lyen 9 fet sensored controller. So I'm typically cruising at 25-30mph.

Don't know about all the issues that Neptx elucidates in his post. I just did a straight ahead rear hub motor and not trying to mount a massive etek mid-drive. So those issues simply weren't an issue for me.

The thing just works. Handy in every regard, stable at low speed, stable at high speed.

Couldn't be more straight forward from a construction/ implementation perspective.

Yes, there is the lowered look, but mounted on the townie it is perfectly appropriate - giving it that motocruiser look that every one raves about.

 

[dnmun]

.

 

[amberwolf]

I think the motor will fit just fine. A little angle-grinding of that motor case and it'll go in there great, and have extra ventilation, too.

That loose-fitting hardware can't be right--if it's really that loose it'd just strip threads when you put enough force on it to tighten it properly.


As for the load on that little tab, I wonder...I haven't ever seen the details of the connection points close up in photos like yours, so I kind of assumed it was a tubular (round or square) interconnect, rather than a "loop"--but I see why it kinda has to be a loop like that, or else it wouldn't have adjustment enough to be semi-universal to fit various frames.


If it really lowers the back end it would change the geometry of the bike, and potentially introduce steering issues. I suspect that it depends on the particular frame design it's being attached to as to what angle the xtracycle ends up at relative to the frame, and thus whether it is "straight" or raises or lowers the rear wheel.

To raise the rear wheel, you could put a spacer between the front mount of the xtracycle (the little "loop tab" and the frame mounting point, if necessary using a longer bolt. That should force the rear of the xtracycle downward, relative to the dropouts, and raise the rest of the bike back to where it used to be, assuming the right spacer size is used.

 

[neptronix]

Well, another fellow i talked to said that he had to use new hardware because the front attachment bolt was also super loose ( again, about 2mm less in diameter than it should be ). After a few trips to the hardware store, he figured it out.

Another guy with the xtracycle had no problems but he had an older version.

I believe what happened with the rear is that they widened it out to deal with 14mm rear axle bikes? but the french nuts seem to be good for a 10mm diameter and just wiggle around in it. That is not confidence inspiring.

But the fact of the matter is that absolutely nothing was snug and there was play in every component.
It is a good kit, but they need to improve that if they want mass adoption. There are a lot of complaints about xtracycle frame flex and i think that ill-fitting hardware may be part of the reason.

I could have made it work.. i could have bought better fitting hardware and modified the attachment to fit my motor, but i'm getting a yuba instead.

 

[HAROX]

.

 

[teklektik]

...but i'm getting a yuba instead.

Good choice!
BTW - Yuba is releasing a new cargo bike: the Boda Boda Cargo Cruiser. No clue about it, but it will be interesting to see what they've cooked up...

 

[neptronix]

Thaaaaaaank you!
Boda Boda is a bicycle taxi isn't it? That would be so cool, if so! Something That both me and my lady can go shopping on.
That's where the ridiculous power of the motenergy motor comes in handy...

Thanks so much for the tip! this changes things!

...but i'm getting a yuba instead.

Good choice!
BTW - Yuba is releasing a new cargo bike: the Boda Boda Cargo Cruiser. No clue about it, but it will be interesting to see what they've cooked up...

 

[teklektik]

Boda Boda is a bicycle taxi isn't it?

It seems so. After your post I found this:

Here's part one and part three of a four part documentary about designing a bike for the Ugandan Boda Boda bicycle couriers/taxis. Here they are trying out the first version of the new design...

An interesting piece - and the bike seems strangely familiar

 

[neptronix]

Ah! would that not be just perfect for our needs, if they had kept what looks like a rear 20 inch tire in the back? hub motored madness for sure..!

cool documentary for sure.

 

[ohzee]

Glad your considering a yuba. I do like mine - I just want more power then the mid drive can give me with a mac.
Look forward to what you do with it.

 

[davec]

hi neptronix
i just picked up mine and has the same issue as your describing in yours pics--- it's a shame
i may have to go out and purchase new thread/bolts/nuts - to make it safer

 

[davec]

these are the washers/bolts hardware i got to assemble the kit


this special nut is 9mm rattles in a 10-11mm hole -...10mm size for this one would be nice


this is a 5mm bolt rattling in a 8mm gap-


this 5mm bolt in a 7mm hole -


7mm hole with a 5mm bolt attached in the pic above

 

[amberwolf]

The attitude they seem to have from your report, as well as improperly-sized hardware, seems odd for a company like that.

Before I figured out that building my own completely custom frame was better for me, I once really wanted the Xtracycle for my heavy-cargo purposes. If that's what they're like now, though, I could never recommend one to anyone.

 

[neptronix]

You know, i sent off another email to the sales rep guy and never got a response.
That is just so stupid for them to not care. This will eventually be a problem for them and hurt their company.

Upside: There is a hole in the market left by them, which could be filled by someone else.

Some day i want to have the room to weld stuff together. I have some ideas.

 

[Kent]

Looking at that hardware, at least visually by the pics, it looks like the bolts are not even grade 5-minimum hardness. Is this kit manuf in China?

 

[neptronix]

Taiwan.

Yes, they look like cheap hardware store stuff. Not what i'd trust to hold hundreds of pounds even un-electrified.

 

[davec]

made in taiwan
it seems thin for the job it has to do - maybe for some folks it doesn't matter-- but i need something strong.....
--- im still debating if there's anything i can do with this kit---... the loader is strong my concern has to do with the nuts/bolts it came with

 

[amberwolf]

YThat is just so stupid for them to not care. This will eventually be a problem for them and hurt their company.

Already is hurting them, as they're going to lose any future customers they might otherwise have had as recommendations from me. (unless they quickly fix the problem for kits being sent out now and in the future, and contact all those owning such kits with problematic hardware to replace them with sufficient hardware).

I imagine they won't ever admit to it being a potential hazard, or they could then be sued on that basis, but they should still fix it if it is indeed the problem that it appears to be.

 

[davec]

ok i think ill give this a chance- build it up and see how it rides
after reviewing it again... the bicycle drop out does *NOT* rest on a 5mm bolt- the drop out rests on a 9mm french nut which sits in a 10-11mm boss hog which is strong-- the 5mm bolt simply holds the french nutt in place of the boss hog....

i would of felt alot more comfortable is these bolts were the right size and fit properly... Im hoping to get repacelemts...but for the meantime i will use what came with it...

without whipping up a new design- i figure a 7mm thread- which goes into a 10mm french nutt sitting in the boss hog snug would do the trick....and would eliminate the spacing which is visible in the diagram...

 

[Tricky coyote]

WhoA! hold your horses, people. I was alerted to this thread by davec, who somehow got my private email and thought I'd be a good person to help resolve his issues. I'm a founder of Xtracycle, though I no longer work there, and I'm only getting into this discussion because it seems misinformed.

First, davec sent me the exchange he had with customer service at Xtracycle. It seemed to me that customer service certainly did care about his complaint and went to lengths to make sure nothing was wrong with his kit. Also, ultimately, they disagreed with his criticisms. They were friendly, and offered him remedies, including a complete refund. That's not poor customer service; it's the best you can expect. They didn't reply to his latest email yet, because it's the weekend. Be realistic folks, Xtracycle is a tiny company and they don't have 24/7 customer service.

As davec finally noted, the 5mm bolts are not axle bolts. In fact, you could say they are oversized for the job since they are doing the exact same work that a 3mm quick release skewer does: squeeze so that the 9mm "axle" stays in place. I do agree that the French Nut should fit snugly in the Boss Hog, and it has always been my experience that it does.

Neither the weight of the rider nor of the bicycle is taken by the front mounting bolt. The weight is taken by the bicycle's chainstay bridge, upon which the FreeRadical tongue rests. The bolt merely holds the tongue in place. Even if you assemble the FreeRadical with the Tongue under the chainstay bridge (rarely done, to affect geometry), the bolt is not in shear.

This hardware kit is the same one they've been using for 12 years. It's good stuff, mostly stainless. My band tours with up to 15 Xtracycles, for thousands of miles, with 200-pound bikes. Before this, I worked at Xtracycle for 9 years. I've NEVER seen one of the bolts break, and would never expect to: they're simply the right size for the job.

Also, to all the hand-wringing about flex: once you learn how to load (by keeping the load really tight and with the weight as far forward as possible) and ride (by moving your body instead of the bike) an Xtracycle, in my experience it's really a non-issue. That said, you might be served by a stiffer frame if you're looking to carry really big loads (350 pounds plus, including rider) all the time. The Yuba Mundo, the Sun Atlas Cargo, and to a lesser degree the Big Dummy all fit this bill.

 

[neptronix]

OK. But we are ebikers. Our mode of operation is very different.
We are going to do things like operate these at 20mph ( pretty normal ) - 50mph ( extreme, but some will do it! ).

Now are we really misinformed, or do we have a collective experience that may be valid? ... we've figured out that many bicycle components are under-engineered for our use already.

How long do you think undersized, cheap, loose fitting hardware lasts under our conditions?
The french nut was the worst part of the rig for me - extremely loose.

There are ways to make this kit work well - to eliminate all those complaints online of the kit loosening itself, flexing etc. Sounds like they are not interested in fixing anything. That is too bad. I hope you have moved on to better things. Yuba has it right, other than their collapsing fork problem!

 

[amberwolf]

This hardware kit is the same one they've been using for 12 years. It's good stuff, mostly stainless.

If it is indeed the same hardware and fitting the same size holes/etc. in the Xtracycle as always, and there have never been any failures of it, then my apologies for misunderstanding. Based on the information in the thread, it sounded like the hardware kit had changed at some point.

I had not yet read of a reply to Neptronix from Xtracycle based on the communication here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=593472#p593472
which given the time since then (more than two weeks) seemed odd. Perhaps there was communication but it wasn't posted about?
This is the source of my comment regarding attitude, and my thoughts on this didn't change after the next post, as it sounded from this post:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=603539#p603539
like there had been no response at all, despite a second email (date of second email not given).

It does sound like davec's experience was much better than most companies would provide.

Thanks for chiming in--it helps to get outside perspectives on things.

 

[Chalo]

All the fasteners you call "5mm" are 6mm in diameter. That size is, for instance, what holds a brake onto a bike. It's what holds a spendy Phil Wood hub onto its dropout. Used correctly, it's very strong.

Consider that a quick-release skewer is a 5mm fastener. So the bolts holding an Xtracycle Free Radical to the bike frame are much bigger in cross-sectional area than a QR skewer. And that "too loose" nut pulls itself into alignment when under fastener tension. How would a tighter-fitting hole help in that case, except to offer a way to jam up the fastener with even the slightest damage?

The "kickstand" joint on the Xtracycle is under compressive load and a little torsion. The bolt mostly serves as a positive locator and is under little stress.

Bolts must stretch when tightened, to maintain their preload. Too big a bolt can be as much of a problem as too small. It's clear from your comments about fastener size that you don't really understand how bolted joints work. They don't have any effect on the stiffness of the system unless they become loose, and they are more likely to become loose if they are too thick. If they are too thin, the symptom is that they can't be tightened enough to resist the applied forces without breakage or damage.

The Xtracycle design is developed and proven. My friend the late Val Kleitz used and abused his early Xtracycle until it broke, many times. Many of the upgrades he devised were incorporated into successive generations of Free Radicals. There are no shortcomings with the fastener kit, for the purposes of the average installation. An unusual bike frame might demand slight changes, but these should be undertaken with some sensitivity to the demands of the original design.

It is one of the faults of a newbie mechanical engineer or designer to make operating clearances too small. Oversizing fasteners is another characteristic novice mistake. The Xtracycle Free Radical has limitations, for sure, but they are the limitations of its frame, the frame it's attached to, and the wheel. The fasteners are not a limiting factor.

Chalo