Sony VTC6

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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goatman   10 MW

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Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Oct 11 2020 4:10pm

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charged

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3amp discharge to 2.5v

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2986mah, sony data sheet 5.5.3.2. says 2850 or more :thumb:

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/so ... vtc6-2.pdf

will do some cycles like the 30Q test to compare

heres a link on how to spot fakes

https://18650pro.ru/cell-fakes/sony-vtc ... t-poddelku

charged it up, 2939mah

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10amp sag

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heres the discharge of test

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the settings

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#1 d-2588, c-2550 peak temp 100f
#2 d-2587, c-2547
#3 d-2580, c-2539
#4 d-2570, c-2529
#5 d-2572, c-2521
#6 d-2553, c-2514
#7 d-2544, c-2506
#8 d-2537, c-2498
#9 d-2532, c-2491
#10 d-2524, c-2486
#11 d-2520, c-2479
#12 d-2504, c-2466 laptop had shut down overnight and test had stopped for 7hrs, voltage dropped to 4.17v, when computer turned on test auto started so i let it go, discharge mah should come back up.
#13 d-2505, c-2467
#14 d-2504, c-2460
#15 d-2501, c-2463
#16 d-2498, c-2460
#17 d-2497, c-2458
#18 d-2493, c-2455
#19 d-2492, c-2454
#20 d-2487, c-2449
#21 d-2483, c-2445
#22 d-2481, c-2442
#23 d-2478, c-2441
#24 d-2477, c-2437
#25 d-2471, c-2432
#26 d-2467, c-2429
#27 d-2463, c-2427
#28 d-2463, c-2427
#29 d-2464, c-2425
#30 d-2460, c-2423
#31 d-2459, c-2421
#32 d-2457, c-2418
#33 d-2455, c-2417
#34 d-2453, c-2414
#35 d-2452, c-2416
#36 d-2451, c-2413
#37 d-2449, c-2410
#38 d-2447, c-2409
#39 d-2446, c-2408
#40 d-2445, c-2408
#41 d-2444, c-2406
#42 d-2444, c-2405
#43 d-2443, c-2403
#44 d-2439, c-2402
#45 d-2438, c-2399
#46 d-2436, c-2398
#47 d-2437, c-2398
#48 d-2435, c-2396
#49 d-2434, c-2394
#50 d-2433, c-2394 changing wait times from 6/2 minutes to 10/5 minutes
#51 d-2433, c-2393
#52 d-2430, c-2392
#53 d-2428, c-2387 microsoft shut-off my computer and i lost the data on a couple??? cycles, dont know
#54 d-2429, c-2391
#55 d-2427, c-2389
#56 d-2426, c-2389
#57 d-2425, c-2387
#58 d-2423, c-2387
#59 d-2423, c-2384
#60 d-2420, c-2382
#61 d-2419, c-2379
#62 d-2418, c-2377
#63 d-2414, c-2376
#64 d-2415, c-2374 removed the wait times between charge/discharge
#65 d-2414, c-2374
#66 d-2412, c-2373
#67 d-2410, c-2373
#68 d-2408, c-2371 changing to 5/2 minute wait
#69 d-2408, c-2367
#70 d-2405, c-2366
#71 d-2406, c-2367
#72 d-2405, c-2365
#73 d-2404, c-2364
#74 d-2402, c-2364
#75 d-2402, c-2363
#76 d-2400, c-2363
#77 d-2401, c-2362
#78 d-2400, c-2362
#79 d-2398, c-2360
#80 d-2397, giving the battery a break for 10 days to do another 70 cycles on the 30Q
Last edited by goatman on Oct 19 2020 8:33pm, edited 25 times in total.

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by John in CR » Oct 11 2020 5:28pm

AFAIC the Sony VTC series are the best 18650's for ebikes. I still have some first gen VTC's I harvested from Makita tool pack warranty returns from DrBass that I bought back in 2008 and 2009 that are still in daily use. Sure they sag like hell because they're so worn but they still work fine running the entire time without a BMS and no cell monitoring. Their tendency toward self balancing due to increased Ir near the top of charge has been great. I wonder if the newer versions have that same self balancing tendency.

goatman   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Oct 18 2020 2:38pm

some batteries dont like to be cycle tested with short wait times. the lg mj1 datasheet wants a 20 minute wait between discharge and charge, 10 minute wait between charge and discharge. the 40T and 30Q dont seem to mind a short wait period of 5min/2min but batteries like the mnke 26650 and molicel p42a needed a wait time or they suffer more capacity loss/cycle.

im going to test a few cycles with no wait times just to see what happens to mah loss/cycle

Image

#65 d-2414, c-2374
#66 d-2412, c-2373
#67 d-2410, c-2373
#68 d-2408, c-2371 switching to 5/2 minute wait to continue testing
Last edited by goatman on Oct 18 2020 8:26pm, edited 3 times in total.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by john61ct » Oct 18 2020 2:54pm

That would imply better to use a separate smaller pack for regen, start your ride out with it at a low enough SoC%?

With those using for lengthy continuous drag braking, say a heavy tandem/cargo in the Rockies, maybe make them identical, and the one used for regen becomes a limp-home spare. . .

goatman   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Oct 18 2020 3:04pm

thats kind of what im thinking of for a boat, you have "house" batteries in 2 separate banks, like a mnke 26650 hooked to a solar system, and the "starter" battery would be the motor battery with a high amp cell like a 25r that can be "paralleled" to the system through a solar controller? and pull the packs out like Justins boat and use them on the bikes

havent found a battery that can do everything i want so thats the way im leaning.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by john61ct » Oct 18 2020 3:14pm

Do you mean a real boat or models? I don't know Justin.

Pretty rare to have regen, except for large ocean-going yachts, can get up to multiple kW there. . .

Any battery capable of powerful propulsion will work as a Starter batt, that is a trivial load, fractions of 1% of capacity.

Even a big diesel requiring 6-800A, it's only for a fraction of a second surge.

They make jumper packs for OTR 18-wheelers that fit in your pocket, double as a USB charger for phones.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Hillhater » Oct 18 2020 4:46pm

john61ct wrote:
Oct 18 2020 3:14pm
Do you mean a real boat or models? I don't know Justin.
:shock: :shock: Dont know Justin ? :shock: ......Oh man, you need an education !
....he owns us !
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=108411
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by john61ct » Oct 18 2020 6:05pm

Ah that Justin, never came across the fact he owns a boat.

goatman   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Oct 18 2020 6:37pm

starter battery is boat slang, house batteries are usually deep cycle. when i say "starter battery" i mean the motor battery

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by john61ct » Oct 18 2020 8:16pm

Starter battery is the standard term, not just boats, ones dedicated to cranking engines, gensets etc.

A completely different deep cycling type compared to what you should buy for House usage, means everything else basically

Old school used to say Primary for the Starter, and Accessory or Secondary for House.

So many motors are powered by battery banks now, but packs designed for propulsion use cases are another category yet again.

Winches, big pumps hydraulics etc actually need packs similar to that latter.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Hillhater » Oct 19 2020 7:29pm

Yes, starter batteries (PbA) only ever see shallow discharges and short period use, they are easily killed by continuous heavy/Traction use or repeated deep discharge.
But when it comes to Lithium, a different set of factors apply, with discharge rate, energy density, weight cost, compromise’s having to be balanced for different applications.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by john61ct » Oct 19 2020 7:58pm

Whether a Starter batt is LI or Pb is just a question of volts & amps.

The design of infrastructure charging them concurrently when the alternator is active, and keeping them separate when not charging

does not change much, just (maybe) selection of components.

If one side is lead the other LI (either direction), then add prioritizing getting lead to 100% Full, and preventing that for the LI side, unless that soon is needed for loads.

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 09 2020 9:09pm

How would you implement a two way pack one for regen ? Diodes

I kinda like the idea I've got a electeic scooter that will have electronic braking only and I like the idea of have a separate pack I can size for regen and running lights so I'll never have to charge them if I plan my system decent and have strong regen from the get go.

For my lights I'll have to work my my average watthours in regen and not exceed that with the lighting runtime be nice to have them quiet even so the pack can hover around maintenance charge continuously.

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 09 2020 9:22pm

Bashing my brain no config of diodes would work for the battery side.

But if two vesc could run side by side on the same motor then just maybe it could be done 2 separate batterys 2 controllers one regen one power and just the one motor.

goatman   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Nov 09 2020 9:32pm

if on the brake lever you ran 2-sets of wires, 1 to each controller
you pull the brake lever and main controller cuts out
the other controller would activate the regen from the other wire?

i dont know

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 09 2020 9:52pm

2 hall effects, one for throttle the other brake there's no other levers just a foot brake for the rear.
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I think if there's hall effect sensors shared between them only one controller powering etc then they should follow in sync in theory it could work the fets will isolate the controller till its needed.

If i run at 12s I could harvest 30wh per ride and say 20wh useable for a decent 3w led upfront and a 1w red tail light for the one hour usage time plus have a strong regen throughout the discharge, plus that foot brake for a dead man switch for both controllers as it's wired to.

Just got to be sure that both ain't used at the same time or boom may need some sort of CAN connection and software to be sure of that and that's where I'd fall flat on my face.

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 09 2020 10:00pm

Just fit a second hub upfront I got the spare from a second and run it as a a dual set up no probs from booms or complex crap then and I can have my cake and eat it.

goatman   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Nov 11 2020 9:05pm

Ianhill wrote:
Nov 09 2020 10:00pm
Just fit a second hub upfront I got the spare from a second and run it as a a dual set up no probs from booms or complex crap then and I can have my cake and eat it.
wont the cogging kill range? or will it be 2wd but the front would also be the regen brake?

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 11 2020 11:02pm

goatman wrote:
Nov 11 2020 9:05pm
Ianhill wrote:
Nov 09 2020 10:00pm
Just fit a second hub upfront I got the spare from a second and run it as a a dual set up no probs from booms or complex crap then and I can have my cake and eat it.
wont the cogging kill range? or will it be 2wd but the front would also be the regen brake?
Yea there will be cogging on a hub sat there as a brake its not ideal and the complexity would make it pointless effort that a mechanical brake upfront would proberly save more energy by saving weight even if it's throwing some away as heat.

Think 1wd is the way ill just have to use that rear foot brake to assist, won't want to go to fast on this one lmao death trap lol it's intended to for little ens been nice to have a light set up maintenance free and solved that brake issue.

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 11 2020 11:21pm

Razor missed a trick putting that hub upfront would have given it 1wd but 2 brake 1 foot the other electronic, now though that same wheel does both forms of braking and power so on that front the front wheel drive efforts have the upper hand even if they wheelspin easier off the line it helps encourage a push start to help range.

goatman   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by goatman » Nov 11 2020 11:54pm

ive seen those scooters with aftermarket front suspension, i wonder if you can modify the the front fork to take the motor. have you seen vortecks scooter, , he got something from the Russians like custom drop-outs and machined torque washers, im not following his scooter thread on youtube

Ianhill   10 MW

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Re: Sony VTC6

Post by Ianhill » Nov 12 2020 12:19am

I came across a vid of his with a xiaomi m365 and a sabvoton controller quite a mental combination considering but each to they own.

I've got 2 of these scooters so I could cut the fork on one just as a test mule try to allow the hub to slot up and externak torque arms and then swap the front wheel to the rear there's room to run the cable internal too, may be on to something.

It's crying out for a 2wd dual vesc then nice and light setup 15kg say and foldable, there's a decent anti vibrate fold mech in the razor that's good for 90kg tested.

Sorry to bomb the vtc6 thread but it's appreciated this testing as I'll be using it to cherry pick for sure.

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