• Howdy! we're looking for donations to finish custom knowledgebase software for this forum. Please see our Funding drive thread

Sony VTC6

goatman

10 MW
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
3,220
Location
Surrey, B.C.
1iZP47r.jpg


ACbGMPe.jpg


8L5FIND.jpg


Wo2GYjZ.jpg


opTbPT4.jpg


Jkxdqst.jpg


charged

ixZMhHG.png


3amp discharge to 2.5v

0EuD9w7.png


2986mah, sony data sheet 5.5.3.2. says 2850 or more :thumb:

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/sony_us18650vtc6-2.pdf

will do some cycles like the 30Q test to compare

heres a link on how to spot fakes

https://18650pro.ru/cell-fakes/sony-vtc6-kak-otlichit-poddelku

charged it up, 2939mah

27jeGRX.png


10amp sag

T89Vic0.png


heres the discharge of test

8HJnBVB.png


the settings

o7jlsnc.jpg


#1 d-2588, c-2550 peak temp 100f
#2 d-2587, c-2547
#3 d-2580, c-2539
#4 d-2570, c-2529
#5 d-2572, c-2521
#6 d-2553, c-2514
#7 d-2544, c-2506
#8 d-2537, c-2498
#9 d-2532, c-2491
#10 d-2524, c-2486
#11 d-2520, c-2479
#12 d-2504, c-2466 laptop had shut down overnight and test had stopped for 7hrs, voltage dropped to 4.17v, when computer turned on test auto started so i let it go, discharge mah should come back up.
#13 d-2505, c-2467
#14 d-2504, c-2460
#15 d-2501, c-2463
#16 d-2498, c-2460
#17 d-2497, c-2458
#18 d-2493, c-2455
#19 d-2492, c-2454
#20 d-2487, c-2449
#21 d-2483, c-2445
#22 d-2481, c-2442
#23 d-2478, c-2441
#24 d-2477, c-2437
#25 d-2471, c-2432
#26 d-2467, c-2429
#27 d-2463, c-2427
#28 d-2463, c-2427
#29 d-2464, c-2425
#30 d-2460, c-2423
#31 d-2459, c-2421
#32 d-2457, c-2418
#33 d-2455, c-2417
#34 d-2453, c-2414
#35 d-2452, c-2416
#36 d-2451, c-2413
#37 d-2449, c-2410
#38 d-2447, c-2409
#39 d-2446, c-2408
#40 d-2445, c-2408
#41 d-2444, c-2406
#42 d-2444, c-2405
#43 d-2443, c-2403
#44 d-2439, c-2402
#45 d-2438, c-2399
#46 d-2436, c-2398
#47 d-2437, c-2398
#48 d-2435, c-2396
#49 d-2434, c-2394
#50 d-2433, c-2394 changing wait times from 6/2 minutes to 10/5 minutes
#51 d-2433, c-2393
#52 d-2430, c-2392
#53 d-2428, c-2387 microsoft shut-off my computer and i lost the data on a couple??? cycles, dont know
#54 d-2429, c-2391
#55 d-2427, c-2389
#56 d-2426, c-2389
#57 d-2425, c-2387
#58 d-2423, c-2387
#59 d-2423, c-2384
#60 d-2420, c-2382
#61 d-2419, c-2379
#62 d-2418, c-2377
#63 d-2414, c-2376
#64 d-2415, c-2374 removed the wait times between charge/discharge
#65 d-2414, c-2374
#66 d-2412, c-2373
#67 d-2410, c-2373
#68 d-2408, c-2371 changing to 5/2 minute wait
#69 d-2408, c-2367
#70 d-2405, c-2366
#71 d-2406, c-2367
#72 d-2405, c-2365
#73 d-2404, c-2364
#74 d-2402, c-2364
#75 d-2402, c-2363
#76 d-2400, c-2363
#77 d-2401, c-2362
#78 d-2400, c-2362
#79 d-2398, c-2360
#80 d-2397, giving the battery a break for 10 days to do another 70 cycles on the 30Q
dec.19 test resumed
#81 d-2372, c-2322
#82 d-2364, c-2324
#83 d-2363, c-2320
#84 d-2361, c-2317
#85 d-2359, c-2315
#86 d-2358, c-2316 doing a 0.6amp discharge capacity test from 4.2v to 2.5v
d-3020, c-2840
#87 d-2442
 
AFAIC the Sony VTC series are the best 18650's for ebikes. I still have some first gen VTC's I harvested from Makita tool pack warranty returns from DrBass that I bought back in 2008 and 2009 that are still in daily use. Sure they sag like hell because they're so worn but they still work fine running the entire time without a BMS and no cell monitoring. Their tendency toward self balancing due to increased Ir near the top of charge has been great. I wonder if the newer versions have that same self balancing tendency.
 
some batteries dont like to be cycle tested with short wait times. the lg mj1 datasheet wants a 20 minute wait between discharge and charge, 10 minute wait between charge and discharge. the 40T and 30Q dont seem to mind a short wait period of 5min/2min but batteries like the mnke 26650 and molicel p42a needed a wait time or they suffer more capacity loss/cycle.

im going to test a few cycles with no wait times just to see what happens to mah loss/cycle

PNfGlZ3.png


#65 d-2414, c-2374
#66 d-2412, c-2373
#67 d-2410, c-2373
#68 d-2408, c-2371 switching to 5/2 minute wait to continue testing
 
That would imply better to use a separate smaller pack for regen, start your ride out with it at a low enough SoC%?

With those using for lengthy continuous drag braking, say a heavy tandem/cargo in the Rockies, maybe make them identical, and the one used for regen becomes a limp-home spare. . .
 
thats kind of what im thinking of for a boat, you have "house" batteries in 2 separate banks, like a mnke 26650 hooked to a solar system, and the "starter" battery would be the motor battery with a high amp cell like a 25r that can be "paralleled" to the system through a solar controller? and pull the packs out like Justins boat and use them on the bikes

havent found a battery that can do everything i want so thats the way im leaning.
 
Do you mean a real boat or models? I don't know Justin.

Pretty rare to have regen, except for large ocean-going yachts, can get up to multiple kW there. . .

Any battery capable of powerful propulsion will work as a Starter batt, that is a trivial load, fractions of 1% of capacity.

Even a big diesel requiring 6-800A, it's only for a fraction of a second surge.

They make jumper packs for OTR 18-wheelers that fit in your pocket, double as a USB charger for phones.
 
Starter battery is the standard term, not just boats, ones dedicated to cranking engines, gensets etc.

A completely different deep cycling type compared to what you should buy for House usage, means everything else basically

Old school used to say Primary for the Starter, and Accessory or Secondary for House.

So many motors are powered by battery banks now, but packs designed for propulsion use cases are another category yet again.

Winches, big pumps hydraulics etc actually need packs similar to that latter.
 
Yes, starter batteries (PbA) only ever see shallow discharges and short period use, they are easily killed by continuous heavy/Traction use or repeated deep discharge.
But when it comes to Lithium, a different set of factors apply, with discharge rate, energy density, weight cost, compromise’s having to be balanced for different applications.
 
Whether a Starter batt is LI or Pb is just a question of volts & amps.

The design of infrastructure charging them concurrently when the alternator is active, and keeping them separate when not charging

does not change much, just (maybe) selection of components.

If one side is lead the other LI (either direction), then add prioritizing getting lead to 100% Full, and preventing that for the LI side, unless that soon is needed for loads.
 
How would you implement a two way pack one for regen ? Diodes

I kinda like the idea I've got a electeic scooter that will have electronic braking only and I like the idea of have a separate pack I can size for regen and running lights so I'll never have to charge them if I plan my system decent and have strong regen from the get go.

For my lights I'll have to work my my average watthours in regen and not exceed that with the lighting runtime be nice to have them quiet even so the pack can hover around maintenance charge continuously.
 
Bashing my brain no config of diodes would work for the battery side.

But if two vesc could run side by side on the same motor then just maybe it could be done 2 separate batterys 2 controllers one regen one power and just the one motor.
 
if on the brake lever you ran 2-sets of wires, 1 to each controller
you pull the brake lever and main controller cuts out
the other controller would activate the regen from the other wire?

i dont know
 
2 hall effects, one for throttle the other brake there's no other levers just a foot brake for the rear.

_IMG_000000_000000.jpg

I think if there's hall effect sensors shared between them only one controller powering etc then they should follow in sync in theory it could work the fets will isolate the controller till its needed.

If i run at 12s I could harvest 30wh per ride and say 20wh useable for a decent 3w led upfront and a 1w red tail light for the one hour usage time plus have a strong regen throughout the discharge, plus that foot brake for a dead man switch for both controllers as it's wired to.

Just got to be sure that both ain't used at the same time or boom may need some sort of CAN connection and software to be sure of that and that's where I'd fall flat on my face.
 
Just fit a second hub upfront I got the spare from a second and run it as a a dual set up no probs from booms or complex crap then and I can have my cake and eat it.
 
Ianhill said:
Just fit a second hub upfront I got the spare from a second and run it as a a dual set up no probs from booms or complex crap then and I can have my cake and eat it.

wont the cogging kill range? or will it be 2wd but the front would also be the regen brake?
 
goatman said:
Ianhill said:
Just fit a second hub upfront I got the spare from a second and run it as a a dual set up no probs from booms or complex crap then and I can have my cake and eat it.

wont the cogging kill range? or will it be 2wd but the front would also be the regen brake?

Yea there will be cogging on a hub sat there as a brake its not ideal and the complexity would make it pointless effort that a mechanical brake upfront would proberly save more energy by saving weight even if it's throwing some away as heat.

Think 1wd is the way ill just have to use that rear foot brake to assist, won't want to go to fast on this one lmao death trap lol it's intended to for little ens been nice to have a light set up maintenance free and solved that brake issue.
 
Razor missed a trick putting that hub upfront would have given it 1wd but 2 brake 1 foot the other electronic, now though that same wheel does both forms of braking and power so on that front the front wheel drive efforts have the upper hand even if they wheelspin easier off the line it helps encourage a push start to help range.
 
ive seen those scooters with aftermarket front suspension, i wonder if you can modify the the front fork to take the motor. have you seen vortecks scooter, , he got something from the Russians like custom drop-outs and machined torque washers, im not following his scooter thread on youtube
 
I came across a vid of his with a xiaomi m365 and a sabvoton controller quite a mental combination considering but each to they own.

I've got 2 of these scooters so I could cut the fork on one just as a test mule try to allow the hub to slot up and externak torque arms and then swap the front wheel to the rear there's room to run the cable internal too, may be on to something.

It's crying out for a 2wd dual vesc then nice and light setup 15kg say and foldable, there's a decent anti vibrate fold mech in the razor that's good for 90kg tested.

Sorry to bomb the vtc6 thread but it's appreciated this testing as I'll be using it to cherry pick for sure.
 
testing to see if you can "desulfate" a vtc6

0.6amp discharge from 4.2v to 2.5v
curve looks the same as 30q and 40t

PalgI0x.png


heres pictures of the discharge test before and after capacity test

#86

aTvCyjs.jpg


#87

50FK0pm.jpg


seems to work if you look at numbers below

#85 d-2359, c-2315
#86 d-2358, c-2316 doing a 0.6amp discharge capacity test from 4.2v to 2.5v
d-3020, c-2840
#87 d-2442, c-2396

ill charge it up, redo capacity test and see if curve straightens out

yep
zetbvt8.png


V9PQdwH.jpg


ill do a couple more cycles and put it on the shelf

#88 d-2446, c-2395
#89 d-2431, c-2387
#90 d-2422, c-2377
#91 d-2413, charged to 3.681v, put on shelf
 
Back
Top