Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by madin88 » May 25 2017 11:07am

The Hubmonster will shine at higher RPM, but i think the take off torque output (where the the iron core is close before saturation) will be not as high as the QS 205 V3 can do..

John, use smallest possible wheel and up the voltage and the "price cup" is yours :)
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by kingjamez » May 25 2017 11:30am

I just found this thread, lots of fun. Great results from both Luke and Doc!

I'm now tempted to give this a go. I've got a buddy with a newly purchased V-Box. I'll try and borrow it.

I'm running a very similar setup to Doc's but with the 3.5T motor. Very similar power levels (20S ~200 battery amps ~350 phase amps), I look forward to seeing what the differences in acceleration times are between the turns.

Off the top of my head i'd wager that for equal wheel sizes and power levels the 5T motor will accelerate more quickly, but obviously the 3.5T will have a higher top speed. Hopefully, I'll answer that soon!

-Jim

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Doctorbass » May 25 2017 12:18pm

kingjamez wrote:I just found this thread, lots of fun. Great results from both Luke and Doc!

I'm now tempted to give this a go. I've got a buddy with a newly purchased V-Box. I'll try and borrow it.

I'm running a very similar setup to Doc's but with the 3.5T motor. Very similar power levels (20S ~200 battery amps ~350 phase amps), I look forward to seeing what the differences in acceleration times are between the turns.

Off the top of my head i'd wager that for equal wheel sizes and power levels the 5T motor will accelerate more quickly, but obviously the 3.5T will have a higher top speed. Hopefully, I'll answer that soon!

-Jim

Yes that will be very interesting!

what i wanted to proove with th is 5T 205 setup is that even with high torque motor you can get decent high speed numbers if you use the good controller.

I experienced alot of various motor winding and the 12kv + motor was nice for the powerband on long stretch however the take off torque was not satisfying me enough. Why getting a motor that get most of his powerband only on road that must be a minimum of lengh to enjoy? in city driving and offroad high torque win for the grin factor unless you go on the highway or 90km/h raod...

With a controller that have the timing advance ( like OVS on the adaptto) you can keep all your desired high torque and have fun on 90% of all road you do at up to 70km/h still het very good acceleration.. and then for the occasional case where you run over that speed, you have the timing advance that give you about 30% higher top speed and also IMPROOVVE the torque at medium high speed at a light cost of efficiency loss.. but who care this is only a small part of the time you drive!

So a HIGHTORQUE MOTOR + TIMING ADVANCE + MEDIUM VOLTAGE can give you all what you want!! But this is my opinion.

And YES it worked for me... a motor of 8.9kv can do 70MPH on a 17" wheel and 90V.. as well as giving you the INSANE 263lb-ft at the wheel! acording to the ebike simulator. In that case the powerband is extremely good and you have insane torque.. not only "torque" at all speed.

I love this setup! 8)

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by liveforphysics » May 25 2017 5:07pm

If you had the controller phase amps available to still saturate the stator, you could run a turn or two less and performance would improve including efficiency at speed.

There are no high torque and low torque winding motors, only adequate and inadequate controllers for the application.
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Doctorbass » May 25 2017 8:35pm

liveforphysics wrote:If you had the controller phase amps available to still saturate the stator, you could run a turn or two less and performance would improve including efficiency at speed.

There are no high torque and low torque winding motors, only adequate and inadequate controllers for the application.
Thnaks Luke for the summary. My explanation was based on a person using popular controller and limited phase amp that we most have... ex 350A phase is common on powerfull setup so for a fixed phase amp that can not saturate the stator like we mostly have what do you recommand?

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by madin88 » May 26 2017 12:44pm

Doctorbass wrote: And YES it worked for me... a motor of 8.9kv can do 70MPH on a 17" wheel and 90V.. as well as giving you the INSANE 263lb-ft at the wheel! acording to the ebike simulator. In that case the powerband is extremely good and you have insane torque.. not only "torque" at all speed.

I love this setup! 8)

Doc
I'm not sure if the sim includes saturation, but i think the torque is quite linear to the amps up to insane values so i guess it doesn't..

We should really start a thread about motor saturation. It would be so great to know if an increase in phase amps still leads to higher torque, or if it is already meaningless.
From an extrapolation of other tests done here in the board i figured out that a 205/45h motor will go in saturation at about 140-150Nm.

I wonder if it can be measured with a simple bathroom scale by letting the vehicle push against it on a vertical wall. With the lever of the wheel the torque could be translated from the thrust at various phase amps.
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by fechter » May 26 2017 1:01pm

The basic curve looks similar to this:
magnetizing-curve-2.png
magnetizing-curve-2.png (9.68 KiB) Viewed 2344 times
Normally we operate in the yellow area where things are nearly linear. Once you reach saturation, the slope changes so increasing current produces less increase in torque. It still increases torque, but efficiency will start really taking a hit in that region.
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by kingjamez » May 26 2017 1:01pm

liveforphysics wrote:If you had the controller phase amps available to still saturate the stator, you could run a turn or two less and performance would improve including efficiency at speed.

There are no high torque and low torque winding motors, only adequate and inadequate controllers for the application.
How do I test for saturation of the stator?

My guess is efficiency, and perhaps more simply: RPM/Volt at load will be an indicator of the stator transitioning into saturation.

-Jim

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » May 28 2017 2:29pm

steveo wrote:... but the adapptos are capable of getting the same speeds as you probably have seen on your bike at only 16 to 20s of lipo for example.
No way field weakening is going to make 20s perform like 30s. On top of it the creation of the extra heat is going to hinder top speed toward the end of a 1/4 mile run, because the copper will quickly increase in resistance. What's your no-load speed with max flux weakening?

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by MadRhino » May 28 2017 3:03pm

kingjamez wrote: How do I test for saturation of the stator?
It is the last reading before it does burst in flames. :twisted:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » May 28 2017 3:22pm

madin88 wrote:The Hubmonster will shine at higher RPM, but i think the take off torque output (where the the iron core is close before saturation) will be not as high as the QS 205 V3 can do..
I gave you a free reset after last time, so this is strike one. The only advantage it has going for it is the slightly greater radius, and Doc (like everyone else) gives that advantage back with too large a wheel. HubMonster has greater width of higher quality steel, and more of it, so no version of the 205 has any torque advantage. Pushing into saturation is a mistake anyway. Doc's idea that my bike accelerates slowly to a higher top speed is absurd and based speculation plus a weak understanding of our hubmotors. I'll run my daily rider settings, which avoids a too violent launch, so that will concede the first revolution or so of the wheel, but he'll be quickly overtaken by strong acceleration all the way thru the 1/4 mile mark. Acceleration that tapers off sharply by 200m may be fine for the 1/8th, but has no place in the 1/4.

Making the best hubmotors produced to date available to forum members for essentially cost was a huge time wasting mistake that I'm done with. I was using 205x40 motors all the way back in 2008, which was before controllers were available to push the speedier winds, and Doc was puttering around on lesser but larcenous priced Xlytes. Those were truly nothing compared to what I've ridden the past 5 years. On the street as well as the 1/4 mile I tip my helmet only to LFP's Deathbike, though there will be some up and coming ebikes with 273 hubmotors to make things interesting. As they push past 100mph I'll just have to figure out a way to fit a slightly smaller tire and get real 150-200V controllers.

In the meantime, Doc needs to put his money where his mouth is and agree to the bet. If he's too chicken then you guys who believe that already insulated motor wire should be covered in a thick layer of paint or gluing on torque arms should step up and back him.

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Doctorbass » May 28 2017 5:37pm

John in CR wrote:
madin88 wrote:The Hubmonster will shine at higher RPM, but i think the take off torque output (where the the iron core is close before saturation) will be not as high as the QS 205 V3 can do..
I gave you a free reset after last time, so this is strike one. The only advantage it has going for it is the slightly greater radius, and Doc (like everyone else) gives that advantage back with too large a wheel. HubMonster has greater width of higher quality steel, and more of it, so no version of the 205 has any torque advantage. Pushing into saturation is a mistake anyway. Doc's idea that my bike accelerates slowly to a higher top speed is absurd and based speculation plus a weak understanding of our hubmotors. I'll run my daily rider settings, which avoids a too violent launch, so that will concede the first revolution or so of the wheel, but he'll be quickly overtaken by strong acceleration all the way thru the 1/4 mile mark. Acceleration that tapers off sharply by 200m may be fine for the 1/8th, but has no place in the 1/4.

Making the best hubmotors produced to date available to forum members for essentially cost was a huge time wasting mistake that I'm done with. I was using 205x40 motors all the way back in 2008, which was before controllers were available to push the speedier winds, and Doc was puttering around on lesser but larcenous priced Xlytes. Those were truly nothing compared to what I've ridden the past 5 years. On the street as well as the 1/4 mile I tip my helmet only to LFP's Deathbike, though there will be some up and coming ebikes with 273 hubmotors to make things interesting. As they push past 100mph I'll just have to figure out a way to fit a slightly smaller tire and get real 150-200V controllers.

In the meantime, Doc needs to put his money where his mouth is and agree to the bet. If he's too chicken then you guys who believe that already insulated motor wire should be covered in a thick layer of paint or gluing on torque arms should step up and back him.

John as always most of your comments are a great source of joy for me. they put a big smile in my face :wink: I like to read these. Thanks for the originality.
however, these great constructive comments should be posted in another thread maybe called.. "my hubMONSTER is better than all the shit you all on E-S have been using since hub motor exist" or so.... I recall this thread is not to compare motor or setup or knowledge but for discussing results and time slip! Thanks for understanding.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » May 28 2017 9:42pm

If you understood Miles' motor comparison spreadsheet you'd know I post fact not opinion. You're the one who made the unjustified statement "I now wonder WHO can beat me on a hub motor ebike?". Then after I called you on it, you follow up with snide condescending comments, so as far as I'm concerned you deserve every bit of my tactless attitude. If I'm so full of it, then it's easy enough to expose me by putting your money where your mouth is. If you lost and paid up, then you should help you sleep better at night by considering it a partial refund for the thousands of dollars I sent you for batteries, which as it turned out you were getting for free.

In the meantime for goodness sake least learn enough about motors to stop with the higher torque slow wind motor nonsense.

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by liveforphysics » May 28 2017 11:16pm

I know your bikes are damn fast John. Thanks for the great times racing gas scooters and priceless beach night rides.

If I visit you again we can mark off a 1/4mile section and put in a 60ft and 330ft and 1/8th mile marks and I will fly my Phantom 4 or Mavic filming with the whole track in view to later be timed.
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Doctorbass » May 29 2017 2:33am

liveforphysics wrote:I know your bikes are damn fast John. Thanks for the great times racing gas scooters and priceless beach night rides.

If I visit you again we can mark off a 1/4mile section and put in a 60ft and 330ft and 1/8th mile marks and I will fly my Phantom 4 or Mavic filming with the whole track in view to later be timed.

That would be awsome Luke! :) Thanks for offering the help for him.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Doctorbass » May 29 2017 2:51am

John in CR wrote:If you understood Miles' motor comparison spreadsheet you'd know I post fact not opinion. You're the one who made the unjustified statement "I now wonder WHO can beat me on a hub motor ebike?". Then after I called you on it, you follow up with snide condescending comments, so as far as I'm concerned you deserve every bit of my tactless attitude. If I'm so full of it, then it's easy enough to expose me by putting your money where your mouth is. If you lost and paid up, then you should help you sleep better at night by considering it a partial refund for the thousands of dollars I sent you for batteries, which as it turned out you were getting for free.

In the meantime for goodness sake least learn enough about motors to stop with the higher torque slow wind motor nonsense.

John please explain, i just dont see any snide condescending comments i could have made. btw i use both large wheel and small wheel on many setup...large wheel arefor setup that i also drive for commutinga nd believe me.. here road are plenty full of large puthole.. and small wheel is too hard for my back... larger wheel are more confortable. and yes i dont onlybuild evbike for performance but for also being confortable on these..

John you are not correct with me... please dont state thing that i dont !

I have never said larger wheels hub motor are better... i fully understand why smaller wheel and high speed kv are the way to go.

But if you would have read completly what i said, i mentionned that this bike is not my drag bike.. it is the bike i use for commuting and the torque it deliver is just perfect for what i need! my drag bike have 3T and my commute bike have 5T

If for my commute bike i would have same torque with a 3T then i woudl need like 600A phase controller witch i dont want to install as it is too heavy!.. the 400A phase that the adaptto give is just perfect and is also the choice many made for their ebike.. and i think all these people are not stupid.

And if you was not as satisfied with the makita pack i sent you after the many times you asked to send you some ... then you had to express it!... because i can't know that you was not apprecaiting these like all other does!

btw i'm not 100% english but i do my best John.. that is not my primary language... and as many of you dont speak french so i have to speak anothe language with is english and make some effort sometime to fuly understand as many of you use curious expressions difficult to understand .. so please explain you famous phrase.. "puting money on my mouth?? or something like that " i really dont know what you mean and it sound very strange.


Now like i said.. let's go back to the original thread please... again!
Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » Jun 01 2017 8:48am

If there's just been a miscommunication, I apologize. Let's just reset.

FWIW, I'm 56 and simply not a gadget guy and not into making, editing and posting videos. I did buy some better equipment, a gopro, some other cheap HD cams, and even an Analogger, but I haven't learned how to really use any of them yet. I also don't have a working car anymore, and my ebikes are my basic transport, so especially since the rains are early this year getting an official track run IS somewhat difficult, at least with a 100% charged battery and ambient temp motor. Those make a significant difference, and I've yet to do a speed or 1/4 mile run starting with a full pack, so the vids I've posted were spur of the moment when I had a cam aboard and saw the highway was clear enough for a run.

BTW being a top speed attempt the 107mph run I shared, I turned the throttle very slowly to preserve battery voltage for later in the run, so that isn't at all how my bike accelerates. Acceleration better seen in the other video, where I had a cam pointed rear from a red light, though that wasn't a fully hard start and I let off quite early as well, since that was a street in town where high speed would be irresponsible.

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 01 2017 11:32am

John in CR wrote:If there's just been a miscommunication, I apologize. Let's just reset.

FWIW, I'm 56 and simply not a gadget guy and not into making, editing and posting videos. I did buy some better equipment, a gopro, some other cheap HD cams, and even an Analogger, but I haven't learned how to really use any of them yet. I also don't have a working car anymore, and my ebikes are my basic transport, so especially since the rains are early this year getting an official track run IS somewhat difficult, at least with a 100% charged battery and ambient temp motor. Those make a significant difference, and I've yet to do a speed or 1/4 mile run starting with a full pack, so the vids I've posted were spur of the moment when I had a cam aboard and saw the highway was clear enough for a run.

BTW being a top speed attempt the 107mph run I shared, I turned the throttle very slowly to preserve battery voltage for later in the run, so that isn't at all how my bike accelerates. Acceleration better seen in the other video, where I had a cam pointed rear from a red light, though that wasn't a fully hard start and I let off quite early as well, since that was a street in town where high speed would be irresponsible.


John, i accept your apologize :) I know you are great man but maybe just a little bit more direct or sarcastic than i am and i knwo i have some difficulty with that sometime, but i see your point.
I know your bike is impressive. What i want is to help you to show us how impressive it is. If there is any gatdget that i have that i could send you to help to get us a video of a 1/8 and 1/4 mile run where we clarely see result and that it is evident then i would be glad to.

I only have poor android S4 mini cellphone to make my video and i use the Youtube editor that i dont spend much time for making a "professioional" style video... But i was able to borrow at my work a very accurate GPS, the same as the DRAG TIME website use and i confirmed that the number it give are pretty accurate copare to the number i hget at the track.

I'm sure that if getting your ebike to the track is costly, we can pass the hat to help you to so it and i would be glad to contribute. we are all curious to see it there i'm sure. just let us know how much and i'll arrange something for that. Passing the hat is a known thing for me as many members here have passed the hat for me to help me buying a Battery analyzer booster to get high rate discharge and post results fo various cell test. so it is time now to pay it forward for me :wink:

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » Jun 02 2017 12:05am

I don't need money. It's the hassle that's an issue, so pass your own hat to get the funds together to make the bet, which is the one thing I'll overcome the hassle. If you lose then I'll give you a more than even chance to win it back by going double-or-nothing against my little electric scooter.

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by flathill » Jun 02 2017 12:26am

John in CR wrote:I don't need money. It's the hassle that's an issue, so pass your own hat to get the funds together to make the bet, which is the one thing I'll overcome the hassle. If you lose then I'll give you a more than even chance to win it back by going double-or-nothing against my little electric scooter.
John loses by default. He rides a scooter not an ebike :mrgreen:

Hahah jk

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » Jun 03 2017 2:09am

flathill wrote:
John in CR wrote:I don't need money. It's the hassle that's an issue, so pass your own hat to get the funds together to make the bet, which is the one thing I'll overcome the hassle. If you lose then I'll give you a more than even chance to win it back by going double-or-nothing against my little electric scooter.
John loses by default. He rides a scooter not an ebike :mrgreen:

Hahah jk
In the words of the PC generation, that's racist.

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by madin88 » Jun 04 2017 11:26am

John in CR wrote:The only advantage it has going for it is the slightly greater radius, and Doc (like everyone else) gives that advantage back with too large a wheel. HubMonster has greater width of higher quality steel, and more of it,
from what i know the steel quality hasn't to do much with saturation or strength of the magnetic field. higher quality steel is mainly used for lowering eddy losses.
so no version of the 205 has any torque advantage.
hubmonster has 58/180mm stator VS 50/205mm of the QS
the radi squares so for a rough comparion of maximum torque we could calculate 58x180² VS 50x205² which would be 1879200 VS 2101250 :mrgreen:
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: [url]viewtopic.php?
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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Ohbse » Jun 05 2017 4:28am

madin88 wrote:
John in CR wrote:The only advantage it has going for it is the slightly greater radius, and Doc (like everyone else) gives that advantage back with too large a wheel. HubMonster has greater width of higher quality steel, and more of it,
from what i know the steel quality hasn't to do much with saturation or strength of the magnetic field. higher quality steel is mainly used for lowering eddy losses.
so no version of the 205 has any torque advantage.
hubmonster has 58/180mm stator VS 50/205mm of the QS
the radi squares so for a rough comparion of maximum torque we could calculate 58x180² VS 50x205² which would be 1879200 VS 2101250 :mrgreen:
I own both Hubmonster and a QS 205, there's really no comparison. Surface area of air gap is definitely a nice measure, but doesn't tell the full story. Unfortunately I guess I won't be able to compete as my hubmonster is mid-mounted...

I'd love to take my DH comp with the QS to the drag strip and see how it compares - I suspect I'm going to be a fair bit off the pace due to the too-short wheelbase. Unfortunately the guys at my local drag strip are a little too pre-occupied with safety and insist on a full one piece race suit. Perhaps I can run at one of the slower winter 'fun' days with less scrutiny.

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by John in CR » Jun 05 2017 5:47am

Ohbse,

I can't wait to hear about your MadAss results. Maybe it will help the electronic gurus understand the need for a refined high voltage controller.

I completely missed LFP's response. When he came down we were riding my old 205x40 motors that were absolute ice wagons compared to the motors I run now. After he comes down with all his cool gadgets, I'm sure he'll want to finish his world record bike using the HubMonster he's been sitting on for quite a while. Then everyone will be kicking themselves for not getting in on the once in a lifetime bargain that HubMonster was.

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Post your DRAG RACE ebike run !!

Post by Matador » Jun 07 2017 8:10pm



Not mine, but holly molly! That's one fast bike on A123...

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