Recommended Motor for Pedicab?

I'm looking for a front motorized hub for my Pedicab.

Weight of pedicab with me onboard around 350 pounds. Total weight carring 2-3 passengers is 650-800 pounds, and that is where I would be using the motor assist most of the time. Wind drag can sometimes be considerable (like carrying an extra passenger) due to canopy. I also plan on freewheeling the majority of the time when the pedicab is empty, so motor drag is somewhat of an issue although given the weight of the pedicab the added drag of any of these motors might not be noticed, but then again I am new to these motors.

I do some street work but mostly tours. That means most of the time operating at speeds not more than 5mph. I plan on freewheeling the flats and downhills so will only use on hilly portions which are around 30% of the rides. That said, there will be some street work where speeds might be around 10mph. So given the weight and type of work, what I'm looking for is more power than speed.

There are several motors I'm slightly familiar with based on what some of the other drivers use. First there's the Heinsman, 24 volt system. According to a quick survey of riders the plus is that it pulls nice on hills but is a little slow on the flats. Also, I have heard of heating issues. Then there's the price.

The Crystalite/Phoenix Brute is another popular model but I would like to keep things within federal guidelines and I believe the 1440 Watt motor exceeds that although in reality I doubt if it would go over 20mph given the loads I carry. Even thought of putting a speed governor on it -- if such a thing --if that would help me make it legal for insurance purposes.

I'm also looking at two Chinese 750 watt models. One is made by Golden motors and is being sold by a pedicab manufacturer who says they have tested well over the last year. Other than that I don't know anyone who personally has used this motor for the pedicab application. This particular dealer says the Golden has performed better than the Heinsman which they previously sold. Better on hills and also faster in the flats. Plus the cost is less. The second motor (500-750w) is sold by E-BikeKitâ„¢ but not sure who makes it.
Link here: http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=109&parent=4
I tried out this motor on a friend's pedicab for about an hour and it seemed OK, maybe lacking a little in power but acceptable.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any comments/advice/experience as to the comparative merits of the motors mentioned in the context of the way I will be using them on my Pedicab. I am also very open to suggestions of other motors as well.

Richard

If you are going to be less than 5mph most of the time, a hub motor will not be running in good efficiency. I would suggest that you ponder using a motor with the drivetrain system to get some gear reduction that is variable with your speed. I assume you have multiple gears at least...

A hub motor set up as mid drive would work very well. A 400 clyte, 9c, or puma would be my choices.

If you are going to be less than 5mph most of the time, a hub motor will not be running in good efficiency....A hub motor set up as mid drive would work very well. A 400 clyte, 9c, or puma would be my choices...I assume you have multiple gears at least..
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I have 21 gear combinations identical to a bicycle and in fact the pedicab uses standard bicycle parts -- three speeds on the front chain ring and seven on the back. Here is the setup/specs: http://www.pedicab.com/pedicabs-boardwalk-pedicab.html

Yes, I will be going around 5mph most of the time but there will be times it will be closer to 10. Most of the guys who use motors run one of the front wheel hub motors mentioned and they do the job. I assume it's because they are easy to set up (just switch out the front wheel). Not sure what setting up a hub motor as a mid drive would entail but my mechanical stills are fairly nil and it's hard to find people who will do anything but the most basic work on the pedicabs.

Richard

The 2 or 3 pedicabs that I have seen with motors are running a 1000 watt front hub motor with a 48 volt battery.
Good luck with yours.

A front hub is certainly the easiest. Doing a mid drive would require some fab work.

Even thought of putting a speed governor on it

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A cycle analyst CA from ebikes.ca would definitely help you dial down your amp consumption and you would know how far and/or fast you can or can't go!
+1 on a 9 contintent with a lower wind like a 2805??? If not a hub motor than a mars motor??

Another thought you can buy 2 9C for the price of a crystalyte x5xx! That way you have a replacement motor in case you do actually fry it.?

yo pediman, where do you ride out of? I ride in boston and it's the reverse here, most of my rides are destination based and a few of them are tours. I've thought about an electric assist much even though they wont let us have them here. when I would really need it is when doing cross town rides that I have to do a big hill climb in the middle of it. I would think that when going up hills with multiple passengers most of the weight would be on the two rear wheels and that's where I would want to have the assist. we just got some new broadway edition mainstreet cabs and though they are plush they do weigh about 100lbs more than the classics and I find it very difficult, sometimes impossible to get up hills that I used to be able to to with four people in tow. I was looking at the mid drive the other day and was thinking about how easy it would be to modify one to have two drive inputs instead of one, stash the motor in the area behind the seatpost where the rear wheel on a regular bicycle would go.

If you want to go slow and pull heavy loads get the (CRYASTLYTE X5306) and it will move along at 2-3 mph and pulls like a mule. Check with MAXWELL57 he sells in new stuff section.It's perfect for what you want,I know how good it is I have one pulling 450lbs at 72volts and doing 30mph.

Except for the freewheeling. But for a hubmotor, a 5306 would also be my choice. The 9 continent 2807 in the ebikekit is too fast a winding for pedicab use.

But what you really need is someting like a mid drive, where a motor drives a chain to at least one of the rear wheels. Stokemonkey is one way to do that, using a hubmotor. You see these on cargo bikes often, because the space to put a stokemonkey may be limited on regular bikes.

So easiest would be a slower winding front hub, or a gearmotor front hub. Best is a stokemonkey or some kind of non hub drive.

The gearmotors would be great, but in my opinion they get hot and cool off too slow. They might work though, if you really do use the motor intermittently. This would allow the motor time to cool after climbing the hill. The Heinsmann is a gearmotor, but it gets hot fast. I melted one, and the other was always shutting down from overheating.

If you go cheap, and just slap an ordinary motor on it, you will do it twice after you melt something. Climbing hills at 5 mph makes most hubmotors very unhappy. But there is a trick to it that makes it more possible. Basicly, you never use full throttle. By selecting a gear you can handle, and then using just a tiny bit of motor to make that gear easier, you can keep the heat down and still get help from a fast wound hubmotor. But this only works on milder grades, and steep hills still take all the watts, and the watts just get made into heat if you go slow.

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_stokemonkey.php Link to stokemonkey kit. Great vendor you can trust.

If you want slow I think this would be perfect. Someone tell me if I am wrong. And it shows they have one left.http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/M4011F26.jpg

I think it is the slowest wind Crystalyte ever made. Maybe 10 mph. @ 36v

Thanks for all the responses. At the start I knew I had a lot to learn, but now I now I have even more to learn!

The mid-drive, custom or multi-wheel setups sound interesting for the future, but for now I need something I can get up and running soon. So that means a front hub.

Size aside for a moment, can anyone compare the relative merits quality-wise of some of the manufacturers involved. Right now I'm looking at Crystalite, Nine Continents and Golden. As to Golden, what about the new 750 watt "Magic Pie" versus the older " ProKit 901"? Someone told me they went to the 901 on a pedicab because of spoke integrity issues on the Magic Pie.

No matter what you do, I suggest getting the wheel professionally built in the US with quality spokes. I have yet to come across a china built wheel that was worth $1 more than the cost of the hub alone- my .02$ anyway.

I have dealt with 9c and xlyte stuff quite a bit. The 9c is great for the price. The Xlyte seems overpriced but overbuilt too.


What size is the front wheel of your cab?

I concur, you want to have something at least as strong as the wheels that typically come on a pedicab. at my work we use burly double wall rims and 12ga spokes three cross. I'm still hoping you go with a non hub mostly just for the selfish reason of wanting to see one done before me and the rickshaw boys who are opening a shop start construction on our own.

I have been throwing around the idea of building a pedicab just to ride around downtown and waste time on weekend nights, and maybe meet some new people. If nothing else I could build a trailer for my trike to pull around.

A mid drive just seems like the best final solution to them, and that is why I want to see it done too :lol:

Hi,

johnrobholmes said:

If you are going to be less than 5mph most of the time, a hub motor will not be running in good efficiency.

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Another option would be a geared hub motor. A Heinzmann would be a good choice because it uses metal gears that are pretty much indestructible. You can probably easily find a one cheap on CL by buying either a used EV Global E Bike® just a Motor (they used Heinzmann motors):
http://www.nycewheels.com/ebike.html

Discontinued Items

E bike - EV Global Motors electric bicycles
When you ride an E Bike®, you are part of tomorrow's crowd; pioneers revolutionizing mobility as we know it. Only E Bike has everything you would want to get around town in the most enjoyable, efficient and environmentally friendly way possible.

Created by product visionary Lee Iacocca, E Bike represents just the beginning of an electric transportation system that will make our planet a better place to live. With all the benefits of clean, quiet, electric power, plus world-class design and engineering; the E Bike is the world's most advanced new breed of vehicle.

Click to expand...

http://www.google.com/search?q=E+bike+EV+Global+Motors+site:craigslist.org&hl=en

John -- 16" front wheels. The rig looks like this plus canopy etc. http://www.pedicab.com/pedicabs-boardwalk-pedicab.html

Gestalt -- Funny, I was sort of hoping you'd do the mid-drive and then invite me over to see how it works.

$1200-1500 for a heinzmann kit with what sure looks like lead acid pictured, I just love how mainstreet tries to squeeze every dollar they can out of you. the canopy is $400, $300 for the front cover and tons of stuff that they put on there customized so you have to go through them to get replacement parts that are way overpriced.

pediman said:

Gestalt -- Funny, I was sort of hoping you'd do the mid-drive and then invite me over to see how it works.

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well, our boss would never let us mod his bikes so we're going to build our own from scratch. which is how an electric pedicab should be built in the first place IMHO, from the ground up around the electric system.

Pedicab drivers have bosses???

I figured that would be a freedom kind of work, but I guess not.

As far as motors go, I think due to the low speeds, high loads, and need for silence, that a hub motor as a mid drive is the way to go.

Well, he's more like the guy who leases the bikes to us slash good friend slash lazy bstard who never gets the work on the bikes done. So at the shop he's the boss, but once I'm on the streets I am the master of my own destiny. By far the most freedom I have had with any job.

One issue with the heinzmann is that they are quite noisy. Cab customers might not like that much. The other is the extra heat created by the brushed motor compared to direct drive gear motors.

The clyte 4011 does look good though, that's what you need in a direct drive motor, a good slow winding. But no freewheeling, so you have to either push the motor using a few of your own watts, or use just a touch of throttle to elimiate the drag. One plus of a dd motor, is you could enable regeneration, and get a small bit of your power back when braking and descending hills.

I'd say try the 4011 with 48v battery.

Thanks again for all the input I'm trying to digest.

While I may be interested in the future -- for now I have eliminated any mid-drive, multi-wheel or custom setup because my goal is to have something up and running in 1-2 weeks time with very little mechanical ability at hand. That leaves me with one of the front hub sets ups.

Today I had a chance to test drive both a Nine Continents pictured here: http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=catalog&parent=4&pg=1
as well as a Crystalyte Phoneix Brute. They were both front hub units on a pedicab and under 1-3 passenger load.

Crystalyte Brute -- On the plus side was more than enough power and pretty quiet. On the down side was also more than enough power (because I could see that motor making me lazy ) On the negative side was a noticeable difference when freewheeling.

Nine Continents -- On the plus side was almost no noticeable difference when freewheeling and enough exercise as pedal assist was often necessary. On the down side was a noticeable "buzz" sound especially when going toward full power on load and a little more power would be nice. Not sure if the difference in noise levels had to do with the different motors or just that the Crystalyte Brute probably wasn't stressed as much or maybe a combination.

Another possibility is the Golden ProKit 901. I haven't had a chance to ride it yet but the plus is that I have a relationship with the dealer which might help in case of problems or a return.

Still hoping to try the Heinsman, but I hear it's noisier than some of the others.

So that's where I am. Open to any comments or suggestions but again at this time limited to a simple front hub setup. Ideally something with more power (and less noise) than the Nine Continents, but without the drag of the Crystalyte Brute when in freewheel.

Richard

The 4011 should fit with the needs in your last paragraph. The most quiet dd hub from what everyone says. Not as heavy or near as much drag/cogging as the 53xx series and it is a really slow wind that should be pretty happy at 10 mph. I have the now unavailable 9C 6x10 which is also a really slow wind and it is a lot nicer at low speeds than my faster 2806. The 4011 is even slower.