Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[Hillhater]

Any time I run across someone preaching that solar works, is cheap electricty, or is quick to pay itself off, etc, etc, I instantly label THEM as uninformed (or worse), and selfish !
..and they probably dont recognise the key differences between personal Roof Top solar, and a utility supply based on Solar.

We don't need solar farms when rooftop arrays will do the job.

Many consumers do not have the option of RTop solar, apartmentowners, renting tennants, consumers who live in regeons with low sun hours / days, anyone whose property is heavily shaded by tall buildings or trees etc. even folk whose jobs or life requires them to relocate frequently !
.For them , a utility supply is essential
RTop solar can work well for some depending on many variables, but it directly impacts financially those who (for many reasons) RTop solar is not viable and must rely on utility grid supply for power.
How you may wonder ?….
for every kWh, MWh or GWh of RTop solar generated, that is one less GWh of demand on the Grid,…which means a smaller consumer base has to bear all the overhead costs of the grid generation and infrastructure . In the extreme ..say when 50+% of the population have moved to RTop supply….the grid becomes either too expensive for consumers, or financially unviable to operate.
Solar as a utility generation source has numerous limitations beyond the obvious requirement for back up systems (for when the weather is not cooperating), meaning stand by fossil generators or inestimable amounts of battery capacity.
Those , of course are never factored into cost estimates, but do become very apparent when significant % of the grid generation is solar (or wind) based ..as in Germany, UK, Australia or California….where power costs mysteriously increase as RE generation is increased.
The introduction of Solar/wind generation has resulted in dramatically increasing electricity prices in every country that has a significant % in their supply system.
Anyone who does not realise the significance of increasing energy costs, should look in the mirror and ask themselves if they have noticed an increase in their overall cost of living, food, clothes, heating, A/c, etc etc
…or the number of businesses that are shutting down (+ job losses) due to the increased costs of utilities.

 

[speedmd]

Our utility trimmed the trees along our road three different times last year. I tried several times to get the firewood but they don't allow that and chip it all. When I asked the friendly folks why they did not take care of it all the first time they came down the route, he politely chuckled.

Three man crew with bucket truck and with police escort. Three full days for roughly 3 miles of road each time. Not many can afford this type of waste in a system.

 

[Ianhill]

IMHO I think we should go the euro way and do with energy pricing like they did with petrol. keep jacking the prices until even the "uninformed" figure that it's cheaper to go solar. We don't need solar farms when rooftop arrays will do the job. Use the extra tax money to subside battery storage for the poorest. And make sure the people who use a lot of energy pay a lot more in energy taxes.

Be careful what u wish for pushing the lower class into fuel poverty as well as food poverty wont help the crime statistics will it ?

The world consumes more oil than ever for a reason, green energy aint gonna give the days we had plus shortages of lithuim bumped the price up many times over into the 1000% so storage just hit a money wall what shall we do give everyone 100k for a ev and roof top solar ao the grids can maintain stability?

Without subsidies the public side of solar falls flat on its face but lets keep paying it out for private business to install solar and windturbines and in uk fuk it why not lets pay tidal huge amounts for systems that run in the 1 megawatt range, what they buying bugatti for more units that make the grid more unstable.

In uk we spin gas turbines for the fun of it not to produce power but stability on the grid maintine 50hz
In a pure green world we wouod still need these large spinning masses to sync the grid properly.

Guy martin documentary on channel 4 uk basiclly ends with a wide open gapping gap what britian has installed in wind turbine needs to be quadrupled by 2030 plus a storage solution to make that green idea work meanwhile price creep is real and no one will be able to use this amazing grid as it will be too expensive unfit for purpose.

 

[Hillhater]

Coming soon to a electricity retailer near you !…..
A new factor for Roof top Solar owners to be aware of….”TWO WAY PRICING”….or “NEGATIVE FEED IN TARRIFS”!
In Australia, utility suppliers are realising that increasing levels of RT solar are dramatically affecting the operation of the grid.
So they are proposing imposing “ Negative” FIT charging during peak solar generation periods.

https://www.essentialenergy.com.au/-/media/Project/EssentialEnergy/Website/Files/About-Us/2024-29-Regulatory-Proposal-AER.pdf?la=en&hash=955540A9277557DCDFE7323DB292B8BBC46CD2A3

We are introducing ‘two-way pricing’ (prices that charge for both consumption and exports) as part of our efforts to lower costs and improve fairness. It will reward you for exporting electricity (from solar panels or batteries) during peak consumption periods and also encourage you to avoid doing so at times when there is excess electricity in the system (around the middle of the day).

Previously, in WA (a separate, smaller grid) approval was passed to incorperate technology to enable the grid to not just prevent RT solar users feeding back surplus generation, but also to completely shut down the panel output to the installer and force them to consume grid power hence preventing critical low grid demand levels

 

[ZeroEm]

Utilities here will not buy surplus electricity, they will let you store it (wonder how long it's good for) and use it later. Figure 5kw grid tie. then off line back up 5-10kw would be a good place for me to start. Don't care about the money any more. The town here is out of attainment and my lungs are suffering. We have in my area 4 homes per transformer, any excess will be used up by the other three homes none will go to the grid. Our summer temperatures are warmer every year. Doing my own science bought a temperature gauge and look at it in the summer.
They are working on the technology to use EV's hook to the grid to use as back up power. May not see it in my life time but it is comming.

 

[Hillhater]

If your utility will facilitate storing your excess solar generation, and then let you use it later at no charge….then that is the golden ticket !
it is equivalent to a zero cost unlimited cost battery
Why not just have a 10kw grid tie system ?

 

[ZeroEm]

It takes twice as long to pay it off. Have not conculcated usage in the last year. The average was 24kw per day for the year. Average annual amount of sun hours is: 2631 hours. Just above 7 hrs perday. 10kw x 7 would be 70kw per day. 5kw would be 35kw. Agreed that kw would be much less in real life. Still 35kw should still cover the 24kw. We have black outs here and the grid tie would be off during this time, never more than 4 hrs in summer and up to 4 days in winter. So a back up off line system would be a nice addition.

Hillhater​

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• Yesterday at 10:40 PM

If your utility will facilitate storing your excess solar generation, and then let you use it later at no charge….then that is the golden ticket !
it is equivalent to a zero cost unlimited cost battery
Why not just have a 10kw grid tie system ?
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/wind-and-solar-vs-coal-gasoline-nuclear.89002/post-1750850

​

 

[Tony01]

IMHO I think we should go the euro way and do with energy pricing like they did with petrol. keep jacking the prices until even the "uninformed" figure that it's cheaper to go solar. We don't need solar farms when rooftop arrays will do the job. Use the extra tax money to subside battery storage for the poorest. And make sure the people who use a lot of energy pay a lot more in energy taxes.

Well you live in California with perfect weather so you are rich enough to not worry about those prices. What about the people in areas with horrible weather, living paycheck to paycheck, who couldn’t care where their energy comes from as long as it’s cheap? Natural gas and oil are the free clean energy sources. EV tech is expensive and battery production is actually far worse for the environment. I’m only in it for the performance. I think forcing an expensive technology on people who would freeze otherwise is highly immoral.

 

[Hillhater]

a 10kW solar system will never give 70 kWh per day ….and anyone telling you it can, is lying. !
40-45 kWh at best on a cloudless mid summer day. !
…..and you dont get many days like that through the year.
Hence a 5 kW system wont maintain a 24kWh daily demand , even in a typical summer.
Unless your solar system is very expensive and your utility charges are very low, you will need more capacity
So the idea is to “bank” surplus power on those good days, ready for the overcast, dull, wet , winter days.
If you have free, unlimited, storage, make sure you use it to your advantage.

 

[ZeroEm]

San Antonio is in a drought, we have mostly sunny cloudless days. we are on the edge of summer now. Sunny days 88 deg F. It did cloud up to day storm is close maybe some rain but would not bet my money on it. Never expect to get any thing close to what is advertised on solar panels. Winter energy usage is going down as winters here are shorter each year outside of the unusual freezing events that used to be once every ten years are yearly now.
Few years after using a 5kw system will add more panels if needed. Do expect the system to come up short, don't want to spend my money to give any away to the corporations. Your welcome to charge you EV at my house have a charge station in the front of my house. Any one on ES is welcome to stop by and get a free charge here.

Hillhater​

100 TW​

• Today at 6:37 AM
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• #7,384

a 10kW solar system will never give 70 kWh per day ….and anyone telling you it can, is lying. !
40-45 kWh at best on a cloudless mid summer day. !
…..and you dont get many days like that through the year.
Hence a 5 kW system wont maintain a 24kWh daily demand , even in a typical summer.
Unless your solar system is very expensive and your utility charges are very low, you will need more capacity
So the idea is to “bank” surplus power on those good days, ready for the overcast, dull, wet , winter days.
If you have free, unlimited, storage, make sure you use it to your advantage.

 

[eMark]

Any time I run across someone preaching that solar works, is cheap electricty, or is quick to pay itself off, etc, etc, I instantly label THEM as uninformed (or worse), and selfish !

How did you conclude that preaching by the majority of THEM are selfish (THEM depending on their definition of selfish)?
Isn't the other side of the THEM|THEY controversy just as selfish (THEY depending their definition of selfish)?

It's all because selfish Nancy can afford to stock (addiction) her freezer with Jeni's expensive ice cream). Trump isn't near as selfish because he's more beholdin' to the less progressive tradition of our dependance on coal and gas ...

President Trump had used the powers of his presidency to champion fossil fuels — his budget request included $500 million for clean-coal research — while mocking climate change and pulling America out of the Paris Agreement. When it comes to renewables, Trump habitually blasts “ugly” windmills, which he falsely claimed causes cancer. He’s used high tariffs and his budget authority to slow the deployment of solar.

(tongue-in-cheek)?

 

[Hillhater]

How did you conclude that preaching by the majority of THEM are selfish (THEM depending on their definition of selfish)?
Isn't the other side of the THEM|THEY controversy just as selfish (THEY depending their definition of selfish)?

It's all because selfish Nancy can afford to stock (addiction) her freezer with Jeni's expensive ice cream). Trump isn't near as selfish because he's more beholdin' to the less progressive tradition of our dependance on coal and gas ...

(tongue-in-cheek)?

Sorry, but can you have another go at that question ?
At the moment all i see is “word salad” with confusing / irrelavent comments.!
I answered the “selfish” question in the original post.

 

[nicobie]

My rooftop solar is about 5kW (14 panels) and I'm lucky to be on a grid-tie with my city owned utilities ( @$.14kWh). I've never had a electric bill over $10/month and that was for last month when we had a almost record cold snap. I can't understand why any single family house would be using 24 - 70kWh a day. I live almost on the coast and we have a lot of overcast and fog too. Not to count that I never need gas for the car either. The solar paid for itself in less than 5 years. this is the direct experience of mine and didn't come from some study I read in a magazine.

BTW... Not everyone in CA is rich. I'm lucky to have been born here and bought a house when very young. I've been all over the US and the rest of the world and can't see myself living anywhere else.

 

[Hillhater]

My rooftop solar is about 5kW (14 panels) and I'm lucky to be on a grid-tie with my city owned utilities ( @$.14kWh). I've never had a electric bill over $10/month and that was for last month when we had a almost record cold snap. I can't understand why any single family house would be using 24 - 70kWh a day.

do you have any storage, battery or utility storage, to maximise your solar output ?
as for usage, everybodys situation is different dependingon family size, weather, house insulation , how many electrical appliances, ( heating, A/C, hot water, cooking ,pools , EV charging, etc etc
The WEF etc are pushing for everyone to go 100% electric asap, so average household consumption is bound to increase.

 

[speedmd]

Here, they do not allow unlimited size arrays to follow the established cost - credit schedules on grid tie setups. Permitting limits you to your established power usage. One could run up their bill a few months charging EV's to bump it up and grid tie with some great credits but this may not be long lived. They do not accept that you are planning on adding ev charging to your baseline. Interesting analysis on the worlds storage and power demands posted last night. Claim 240 terawatt hours of storage needed. Looking forward to seeing the white paper.

 

[eMark]

Any time I run across someone preaching that solar doesn't work or is too pricey or takes up too much land, etc, etc, I instantly label them as uninformed (or worse).

WHY the need for Hillhater's [following] corrupted paraphrase of Nicobie who's just as knowledgeable, if not moreso. Hillhater's comeback accomplishes zilch, nada, zero to advance his perspective. If anything his cute reply is more of a negative than a positive.

Any time I run across someone preaching that solar works, is cheap electricty, or is quick to pay itself off, etc, etc, I instantly label THEM as uninformed (or worse), and selfish !

Your decision to justify the need to add selfish only exposes your bias that adds nothing. Instead it comes across not only as you belittling nicobie, as if you know so much. In affect you are as much as accusing nicobie of not only being uninformed but selfish. No wonder others find reason to disagree with your mixed salad bowl messaging.

 

[ZeroEm]

The average kw in the hotter months is 48kw per day. We have a 30yr old 5ton central AC that pulls 40a @ 240V. We keep the temp at 79 deg F unless the humidity gets up to 60% or higher in the house then we lower the inside until the the humidity is below 60%.
It really depends on the weather. We started hitting 90 deg F a week ago in February so the AC is running about 30min a day already. Most of it depends on the humidity. This morning it was 89 percent had to move the AC temp down to 74 deg to drop humidity below 60%, few days ago a dry front moved thru and it dropped down to 13%, no AC needed.

This house was built in the 60's no insulation. Some was blown in around 10yrs ago. Mother tells me before any insulation and central AC her electric bills would get over 500$ a month. Now we keep them below 200$. We keep adding lower use devices. All most thru with the lights updating the two of the last three florescent lights this next week. In a few months adding a mini-split to cool and heat the far end of the house that was a garage that was turned into a bed room, bath room and 8'x8' walk in closet. Should lower the yearly bill. The winter uses electric heat.

So started using the AC say beginning of March until end of Oct keeps the average up. Our summers are getting hotter, to 110 deg F. Personaly count the days 100 deg F or higher. Last year was 48 days.

nicobie​

• Yesterday at 6:12 PM

My rooftop solar is about 5kW (14 panels) and I'm lucky to be on a grid-tie with my city owned utilities ( @$.14kWh). I've never had a electric bill over $10/month and that was for last month when we had a almost record cold snap. I can't understand why any single family house would be using 24 - 70kWh a day. I live almost on the coast and we have a lot of overcast and fog too. Not to count that I never need gas for the car either. The solar paid for itself in less than 5 years. this is the direct experience of mine and didn't come from some study I read in a magazine.

BTW... Not everyone in CA is rich. I'm lucky to have been born here and bought a house when very young. I've been all over the US and the rest of the world and can't see myself living anywhere else.

 

[JackFlorey]

a 10kW solar system will never give 70 kWh per day ….and anyone telling you it can, is lying. !

My system is 9880 watts STC DC and uses 15 year old transformer based inverters. Actual production figures:

6/25/2022 - 73.4 kWh
6/26/2022 - 73.8 kWh
6/28/2022 - 70.8 kWh
6/29/2022 - 71 kWh
7/1/2022 - 70.2 kWh
7/3/2022 - 73 kWh

I would suggest you don't post on things you don't understand, but that ship has apparently sailed.

 

[speedmd]

This house was built in the 60's no insulation.

Looks like that is a real good place to start. Active Attic venting also. You would near freeze to death up here with no insulation. We did the corner room over in our old place, taking it down to the studs and it was a big comfort upgrade getting it fully insulated and air leaks sealed up. Old windows were very leaky also. I see new heat pumps in most folks future.

 

[eMark]

This house was built in the 60's no insulation. Some was blown in around 10yrs ago. Mother tells me before any insulation and central AC electric bills would get over 500$ a month.

Your Mother must have loved cooking and baking goodies. As barely a toddler (1940s) our first farm appliance was a Frigidaire. Even as a teenager the farm electric bill wasn't over $100. Even so we were the first neighborhood farm family to get a b&w TV.

 

[ZeroEm]

Electric bills were a lot cheaper before AC and all the electric gadgets, before the 70's. They peaked with everyone getting AC and the last of the tube TVs. Now focused on low energy use everything the bills are coming down.

 

[Hillhater]

My system is 9880 watts STC DC and uses 15 year old transformer based inverters. Actual production figures:

6/25/2022 - 73.4 kWh
6/26/2022 - 73.8 kWh
6/28/2022 - 70.8 kWh
6/29/2022 - 71 kWh
7/1/2022 - 70.2 kWh
7/3/2022 - 73 kWh

I would suggest you don't post on things you don't understand, but that ship has apparently sailed.

10kW, is a max rating in optimum conditions, optimum angle to the sun, etc etc..
so please explain how you manage to get max output for 7+ hours per day ?

 

[JackFlorey]

10kW, is a max rating in optimum conditions, optimum angle to the sun, etc etc..
so please explain how you manage to get max output for 7+ hours per day ?

I don't. In fact I only rarely see close to 9880 watts. To get that you need cool/clean panels and cloud lensing, which happens occasionally in April - but the days are shorter then.

To understand how I get 73.4kwhr a day you need to do math.

Jun 25th has 14.3 hours of sunlight. I get an average of 5100 watts (a little over half power) during that time. It peaks at 8700 watts around 11am. June is still cool here which maximizes generation, and of course June 21st is the longest day of the year.

 

[ZeroEm]

"JackFlorey​

I don't. In fact I only rarely see close to 9880 watts. To get that you need cool/clean panels and cloud lensing, which happens occasionally in April - but the days are shorter then.

To understand how I get 73.4kwhr a day you need to do math.

Jun 25th has 14.3 hours of sunlight. I get an average of 5100 watts (a little over half power) during that time. It peaks at 8700 watts around 11am. June is still cool here which maximizes generation, and of course June 21st is the longest day of the year."

Wondering if you used most of that or what you needed and sold the rest to the Electrical service?

 

[JackFlorey]

Wondering if you used most of that or what you needed and sold the rest to the Electrical service?

We "donated" the rest to the utility. Here we don't get credit if we generate more than we produce; we can go to zero (at which point we pay that $6 a month base rate) but never get money back when we generate more than we use. We are still on the DR rate and are on NEM 1.0 so we 'settle up' once a year, and that's when they determine how much we owe.

However we are also participating in a program called Ohm Connect, a program that's separate from our utility bill. That's a DR (demand response) program where they send out a signal and you reduce your usage - then get money back for that. It's intended for people who turn off lights, reduce their A/C usage etc during peak demand times. I have a battery system that is used specifically for that, and can dump 3000 watts back to the grid when they need it. (We talked to Ohm Connect and they are fine with this; they get paid by the kwhr reduced so they are happy to see more reductions they can monetize.) So far over the past 4 years I've made $1200.

We just switched to a heat pump for heating and cooling, so we will see if next year we still break even.