'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

[marvin78]

Isn't it just the first 3 tooth which bear all the load anyway? So while 11 might have to small a radius there isn't much additional strain on individual links once you get to 13-14?

Also, doesn't hurt to make sure your chain line is straighter in the gears you use most. I've found already I'm not using my granny gears much anymore. Any lateral pull on the links especially on the smaller cogs will cause excessive wear so best to keep that as straight as possible if those are your main one's in use.

 

[jhoexp]

If you measured you chain wear before and after doing that, you might have a different impression. Keep in mind, by the time the chain tends to skip, both it and the affected sprockets are toast.

An 11t or smaller sprocket, even on pedals-only bikes, is something that's nice to have as long as you don't use it much. We went generations without using them (for engineering reasons) before all of a sudden they were on everybody's bikes (for marketing and planned decay reasons).

I'll assure you I never had this problem with any of my bikes, I am 45 and I had my first mtb probably in the late 80s when I was 11/12. Never ever had the chain slipping on the 11t sprocket on any of the modern cassettes, not even the sram 10-50, certainly not with the bbshd and the 11-42 I am using on the electrified dh bike and I'll assure I beat the crap out of this thing whenever I can. I even broke a chain link a couple of time with the kmc ebike chain (9 speed) and now I keep a few always with me as spares.
What I am sure of is that my chainline is always perfect, made spacers myself for the bbshd, and all my bikes are constantly cleaned, lubed, etc... maybe it's this that saves me problems with the small cogs.

 

[rhauff]

No this is a really different chain. If anything it's one link too short actually. It's KMC e11 and I can tell it's not a normal chain lol. When I stop pedaling there is this strong backlurch on the cassette. I can literally feel how strong this chain is through the drivetrain. I'm just doing casual gravel / fire roads with the normal bike. Not like I'm trying to sprint in top gear, not at all. 11t will not take anything more than the absolute lightest pressure on the pedals. The rest of the cassette is OK. I just switched to a 3rd cassette, with 0 miles on it. That should really work.

Ok, have to ask, is your cassette 11sp or greater? ( it should be, to match the e11 chain width). It’s really odd that the chain “feels strong” or causes a backlurch. I’m using KMC e10 on 11-42 10sp cassette and it doesn’t feel different than any other chain, just great.

 

[szkuba]

In the package there was also a ton of small 2mm spacers for the BB and new instructions to mount it.
I'll put it here, it's in Italian, but you all know the basics, right?

View attachment 337756
I think the picture is self explanatory, but let me know if you want me to translate the rest using football field as unit of measure or other american stuff!

I do have square tapper axle but also ton od washers. Would be great if those can be translated anyway.

 

[molle23]

Hi, kindly where can I find the PIN? I tried 0000 but it doesn't work. Thank you

 

[richj8990]

Some thoughts:
The great thing about this kit is that you could re-center it to do just that - drive another chainring. You have room to slide the output gear maybe 10mm, and then the crank ring can be adjusted something like 10mm.

You would of course need to remove the torque sensing in that scenario.

You can also adjust the crank ring size to adjust to improve chain wrap to a pretty good degree, up to maybe 1/3rd contact. The crank ring is a standard format, so easily swappable.

I think they built this with the assumption that most riders would not be pedaling super hard and therefore limited engagement with the crank ring is OK.

Ok, have to ask, is your cassette 11sp or greater? ( it should be, to match the e11 chain width). It’s really odd that the chain “feels strong” or causes a backlurch. I’m using KMC e10 on 11-42 10sp cassette and it doesn’t feel different than any other chain, just great.

It's very weird. Yes it's 11 speed. Only 11t and if I have a worn 34/40/46/52T cluster in the back will it slip. Badly. Now here is the strangest thing of all: one of the two cassettes like that (old 1-4 cogs, new 5-11 cogs) was in back with the e-bike; 11T was generally fine and 5-10 fine like it is now. So I'm mixing aluminum older cogs with new steel cogs on one of the cassettes. The completely bizarre thing was the older 1-4 aluminum cogs --- yes they slipped with the e-bike but not horribly. So I switched the cassette to the XC normal bike, put on this new chain. 1-4 slipped much worse. So a new chain under human power puts pressure on the same cassette far more than a worn chain on a mid-drive!?! Maybe the e-bike wore the cassette but that was only like 80 miles. 11T is far worse under human torque than electric. Does not make sense. So I switched again and put a brand-new cassette on the XC bike. E-bike also has same type of cassette, Shimano 11-51T all steel and it's fine, just took it up a 500 foot fire road and no slip. So this other frigging cassette better be fine! It may be that it's too short of a chain and it's gripping too much. The e-bike's chain is I think 2 links longer and there are no issues (for now) with a 3/4 worn chain and relatively new cassette. Will change that chain later but now I'm wary of changing chains w/o the chainring and cassette at the same time. Possibly the 2 extra links make it more gentle when the electric torque grabs the cogs.

This is why the bike shops insist on a completely new chainring, chain, and cassette every time so they don't have to troubleshoot down the line.

 

[richj8990]

If you measured you chain wear before and after doing that, you might have a different impression. Keep in mind, by the time the chain tends to skip, both it and the affected sprockets are toast.

An 11t or smaller sprocket, even on pedals-only bikes, is something that's nice to have as long as you don't use it much. We went generations without using them (for engineering reasons) before all of a sudden they were on everybody's bikes (for marketing and planned decay reasons).

There are 12T individual cogs and I may check that out if I continue to have problems. Just put a larger chainring on and maybe run 13/12 for the smallest two instead of 13/11. It may actually make a better difference.

 

[neptronix]

FYI here the the manual from their website ( copied 08/01/2023 )

 

[jhoexp]

FYI here the the manual from their website ( copied 08/01/2023 )

This is the first/old revision: it contains a few errors.
BB instructions is no good and there is no Isis BB at all. Mounting plate shown in the picture is a specific one (probably an old type) and some of the new ones have the countersunk on the other side, so the screws should be inserted in from the opposite side (in respect to what they say). I'll wait for their new revision, if waiting some more is not a problem.

 

[Mr.Flibble]

I just don't think a single chain is going to cut it on this kind of motor. I agree with others that it doesn't look like it's engaging enough teeth at one time especially on the chainring. Two chains would be a lot better, noisier yes but better from a practical point of view. Like, as in it works.

I just put on a new e-chain on a normal bike and I have to be super gentle with the 11T cassette cog or it will slip. Two different wheels now, two 11T cogs, each with less than 150 miles on them and they still don't work right because of the new chain. I can only guess of one reason: 13T engages enough chain that there is no slip under torque; 11T can't cut it w/o the chain being more broken in yet. Both cogs have exactly the same mileage on them but one engages just enough chain and the other doesn't. Same applies to this motor and chain setup. It's not going to hold over 500W, I bet that's the real problem with the rollout of the kit. Just put a drive chain with an outer chainwheel and be done with it.

If it's slipping, it's because you left it too late to change the chain, and it has damaged/worn the cassette.

 

[richj8990]

If it's slipping, it's because you left it too late to change the chain, and it has damaged/worn the cassette.

It's one cog. 11T. That cassette has less than 150 miles on it. The cog is replaceable for $8 USD.

I will wait until the chain is broken in more, maybe 100-200 miles and then put this same cassette on again and see what happens. That's usually fine to do it that way. If I have to throw out the 11T, not a huge loss.

Remember, this "Always change the cassette / chain / chainring together" dogma is for one bike, one dedicated rear wheel. Not for 3 bikes with a total of four chainrings, three chains, and 4 rear wheels/cassettes. You have to time the rear wheel swaps a certain way based on the current chain wear on each bike.

 

[Chalo]

It's one cog. 11T. That cassette has less than 150 miles on it. The cog is replaceable for $8 USD.

Yes and no. A badly worn sprocket, especially a small one, transfers wear and elongation to the chain. The chain can then transfer this wear to the other sprockets if they get any significant amount of use.

So yeah, if you live in the 11t and rarely call upon other gears, then you can probably set back the clock with a new chain and 11t sprocket. But if you wear out the 11t and also use the other gears often, you'll trash them too (even if their tooth counts prevent the chain from skipping as readily).

 

[richj8990]

Yes and no. A badly worn sprocket, especially a small one, transfers wear and elongation to the chain. The chain can then transfer this wear to the other sprockets if they get any significant amount of use.

So yeah, if you live in the 11t and rarely call upon other gears, then you can probably set back the clock with a new chain and 11t sprocket. But if you wear out the 11t and also use the other gears often, you'll trash them too (even if their tooth counts prevent the chain from skipping as readily).

I think I'm going to try 12T next to 11T (for e- and non-e). I'll show the tooth distribution of what I'm running now below this other comment from a different site:

IMHO Ebike cassettes should use different tooth spacing to non-ebike cassettes.
ie. 11,12,13,14,16,18,21,25,30,36,42
As you can see this would give closer jumps at the faster end of the cassette reducing wear.
I personally find anything lower than a 36x42 gear pointless unless my Ebike is switched off. (I realise this is not the case for everyone though)



I think 11, 12, 13 and 14 may be a bit overkill but I like the concept of 11, 12, 13...and then 15 or 16. Usually doing 100% steel Shimano 11-51T for the e-bike and 1-4 aluminum, 5-11 steel 11-52T for the other rear wheels; here is what a 12T insertion would look like for the Shimano 11-51:

11-(12)-13-15-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51
Have to take out one other cog in the middle. After 15T it goes 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6. That's tough!
24-33 (1.375) is 9, 21-28 is 7 (1.33), 18-24 is 6 (1.33), 15-21 is 5 (1.40). Very tough. Probably take out 24T and go ...18-21-28-33. A 5 to 7 jump and then only 3 for the 21 to 18. That's hard to do. Too jumpy.

If adding a 12 and 14T and then take out 24 and 33T: 11-12-13-14-15-18-21-28-39-45-51. That's 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 7, 9, 6, 6 (largest 3 cogs are riveted together). That may be better.

 

[marvin78]

I was looking at these posts and my bike and be like: I should be more Dutch and go the DAF way.... anyone ever tried pairing a mid drive with a belt driven cvt?

I mean, throwing an Alfine on it might work but I'm afraid those will not last.

A middrive with a belt driven cvt sounds like a very low maintenance setup once you done designing it / setting it up. Will be more friction losses but I think I could live with that.

 

[Chalo]

A middrive with a belt driven cvt sounds like a very low maintenance setup once you done designing it / setting it up. Will be more friction losses but I think I could live with that.

An Enviolo CVT hub would be a simpler retrofit with much better gross efficiency than a belt CVT.

 

[marvin78]

But at what costs? I'd like to try a rolhof with belt drive but I'm not in a position to afford such a setup.

And how reliable? A normal cvt uses rotating weights to always keep the ratio as optimal as possible.

Just did some google, the trekking would be the minimal to deal with 80nm torque. I sometimes do pull some trailers so I should take that into account.

*this was behind a different bike

Max weight of trailers is ~80kg, depending on if I'm taking my trolling motor and lifepo batteries only or if I take a 5hp outboard.

And I also would like to use the same bike to go offroad on some mtb trails so I'd like to have some climbing ability. The Alfine is limited to 309% iirc so 11-42t gravel bike territory which should work in most cases.. but not all.

I was just dreaming out loud, thining I could scange some old 50cc CVT and .... idk nvm sounds like way to much work.

 

[Chalo]

But at what costs? I'd like to try a rolhof with belt drive but I'm not in a position to afford such a setup.

And how reliable? A normal cvt uses rotating weights to always keep the ratio as optimal as possible.

The best thing about Enviolo, and NuVinci before them, at least from an e-bike standpoint, is that they're always fully "in gear" and engaged, ready to take full torque. There's no way to smack them with motor force mid-shift or when the shifting adjustment is in between full engagement intervals.

The starting price for new Enviolo hubs is $200, so among the most affordable internally geared hubs with 3:1 or better range.

 

[marvin78]

3.1 gear ratio would be plenty for a road bike, but it wouldn't be enough to also ride off road ( yikes at weight btw). If/when I will build another bike other then an emtb I think this sounds excellent. I'm a bit scared of my drive train with this bike and both my trailers in tandem, the one with the hub motor had no issue with it really except one quite long upwards slope and it's only 40nm rated so tsdz2 on low gearing will pull it just fine even better but all the force will go through the chain. I don't think my chain would like that, and I'm dreading to accidentally shift under load while towing.

I can get a revised hub for 100 euro, with 1y warranty which I think sounds good right? Cheapest new one I can find is 275

 

[neptronix]

@Pilot Engineer

Do you have any pictures of this being installed mid frame on more bikes?



I'm noticing i'm going to have to do this with my semi recumbents, because where the drive would normally sit, there are forks.

Example:


Could i perhaps mount it in a way that it sits on the top tube, IE rotated 180 degrees to the left.. ( don't think mounting it between the top and bottom tube would work! )

 

[rhauff]

Hi, kindly where can I find the PIN? I tried 0000 but it doesn't work. Thank you

From the manual:
S11. Enter the 4-digit numeric pin found in the package in the "settings" screen of
the App.

Haven't gotten mine yet so don't know if that's accurate. I would have thought it would come with no PIN set.

 

[Rexluna]

BB bearings are very low quality. There are no manufacturer markings on them, nothing exept letter H. And I have never seen such low quality seals before, they are not round and with a lot of defects, on one bearing I can even see balls through gap. And since there are no additional seals, I believe their lifespan will be very short cause of dust and water getting inside.
And they are odd size, my local bearing shop does not have them and never did. So future replacement will be a problem

Did you come up with a solution to this?

 

[neptronix]

Re: the bearings..

Mine came with a square taper BB so my configuration is probably different than cheburator's.

Bearings feel smooth.

Marking is 61902-16 2z for what's installed on the axle,
What appears to be the spares ( black seal ) are marked 61902-16 2RS

According to google this is a standard size; easy to replace.

 

[Cheburator]

Did you come up with a solution to this?

Nope, BB bearings is a minor problem compared to other issues I have with this kit, so I have not looked in to it yet. And I believe that if in the nearest future a lot of customers will start to have problems with BB bearings, manufacturer will have to find a solution.

And I have some news to share. I ordered the medium mount, paid 71 euro with shipping.
Also Bikee have put gear sensor in the parcel. They forgot to put it with the kit. Luckily I had unboxing video that I sent them and they agreed that sensor was not in the box.
I also informed them that motor sprocket chainguard was missing, but they insist that it is actually chainguide that they included with the kit.

 

[Cheburator]

Mine came with a square taper BB so my configuration is probably different than cheburator's.

Bearings feel smooth.

Marking is 61902-16 2z for what's installed on the axle,
What appears to be the spares ( black seal ) are marked 61902-16 2RS

According to google this is a standard size; easy to replace.

Good! In the worst case scenario it is posible to change ISIS BB to square to solve problem with bearings.

 

[raylo32]

How close are we to having one of these on the road?