Serial Hybrid Cycle with ICE Generator Onboard

Hmmm, somebody send me a free chager to match my 4 amp one and I'll try it out, LOL. I'm interested in scroungeing up a golf cart charger now though. It would be fun to ride to Santa Fe on it just to say I did it. Frankly I'm suprised it worked at all, maybe I'll start wearing a beret to go with my mustache. Naaaa Jamie doesn't have a ponytail so I'd never look like a mythbuster.
 
PedalingBiped said:
Miles, your comment about a steam engine reminded me of this.

Click on the steam motorcycle and follow the links to the end and there is a video to see it in action.
http://www.lindsaybks.com/gallery/Jorg/index.html

Thanks, PB, I hadn't seen that one before - nice!

I knew of this one: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0373.htm

This is worth a look, too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqBKRo8q3rQ
 
dogman said:
Ok guys here is some cowboy data on my Poor-us Hybrid.

800 watt honda generator weighs 55 pounds with one gallon of fuel onboard.
36 volt 4 amp charger.
12 ah 36 volt sla battery pack 33 pounds.
BD 36 hub on schwinn meridia trike.

Normal range for the trike with empty basket is 6 miles at full throttle no peadling.
I just rode 11 miles at full throttle, no peadling except to get past 5mph. More or less flat ground, equal uphill and down.
It used so little capacity of the generator that I could not hear a difference when I plugged it in.
Test completed when the low battery light stays on while riding full speed.

By cracky it sorta works! With a 10 amp charger it would really work.

Wow I'm suprised. I thought a 4 amp charger might be close to the generators limit. I'm guessing by how it sounds running that it was using only 100 watts. I sota have a feel for this by experience running different stuff, the gennie will porpise if pulling less than 100 watts and it was. A dinky 4 amp charger doubled the range, and did it packing an extra 55 pounds. Its slower for sure, like 12 to 16 mph depending on slope. and forget a big hill. Basicly it slowed the trike down to its fastest safe speed, at 25 mph it is actually pretty scary. So range increased due to less speed for sure. But nevertheless, it still was running full throttle for more than twice as much time, almost double the distance.

So you guys are definitely on to something here. My guess is if you shoot for something that will put out 8 to 10 amps of 48 volt dc and you would get down the road just about infinitely. One thing to take note of, my test took place at 95 degrees farenheight and I would not want to push my hub more than that in this weather so if you took a break every hour of riding, the battery could catch up while the hub cooled. riding like that you could get by with an even smaller gennie.

For someone wanting to just do it from avaliable stuff, look for the lightest possibe generator. You will only need about 400 watts. And a 6 to 10 amp charger that is durable enough to take the bumps. The trike is cheap, $250 at wallmart, buy it onlline and they ship it to your local store free.

Does anybody know if you can run two chargers into one battery pack at the same time?

Dogman! You're a STAR!!! You've PROVED the concept! All we need to do now is downsize. :D
I'm posting another thread immediately called "Parallel Hybrid with ICE Generator On Board - PROOVED!". It will just point to your post!
 
When Jeremy first proposed this idea, last year, I was a bit negative about it (sorry Jeremy). Anyway, I'm warming to it, now...

Here is my preference:

A normal ebike for shorter journeys, with batteries on the bike or in a back-pack.

A trailer with sound-insulated/damped box containing the generator for longer journeys, touring etc. The batteries could also be moved to the trailer and there'd be space for luggage, too.

Stirling engine generator would be nice, but it's only a dream :(
 
Jeremy Harris said:
Fechter's pic IS of one of these engines, the photo is deceptive. That one weighs about 7 1/2lbs I believe, complete with all the fancy casing etc. Stripped of it's casing stuff I believe that the GX31 weighs in at about 5lbs.

One of those small UAV alternators looks like a good option, but I bet they are expensive. A cheaper alternative would be to use a model aircraft electric motor run as an alternator, or perhaps as a dynamo if it's a brush type motor.

Jeremy

Let's pursue this, Jeremy, while Walmart sells out of small Honda gensets and Trikes! Is there kit like this to buy off the shelf or do we have to cobble it together? :roll:
 
Not got there yet, but this is on the way:
http://www.rc-cam.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=575&st=
... which leads back to:
http://www.sullivanuav.com/home.html
... need to check out the price.
 
This seems to be the lightest: http://www.georgecarrpowerproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Honda_GX_25.html - 6 pounds before stripping off non-essentials .... It's not listed on the Honda site, though: http://www.honda.ca/enginesEng/models/GXH/default.htm Also, with the slightly greater weight of the GX 31, you get much more power...
 
I'm coming back around to this idea, having looked at it a while ago when I was thinking of building a hybrid velomobile, as Miles has mentioned.

The first thing we need to do is to try and estimate just how much power we actually need. For a true hybrid, with range only limited by the quantity of fuel carried, then I think the answer is probably around 200 to 300 watts for a bike, perhaps two or three times this for something like my electric motorcycle project.

200 to 300 watts is pretty easy to do, I think, if we can find the right components at a reasonable price. The GX25 is a good starting point, as it delivers about 750 watts when run flat out. Running it at about 1/3 throttle should make for a reasonably quiet and efficient unit. The down side of running at part throttle is the lower rpm, which makes finding a suitable motor to use as a direct drive generator tricky.

If we opt for using the motor/generator to start the engine, then the clutch and pull start can be discarded, saving 1/2 kg or so. It might well be worth stripping off all the casings as well and making a new housing to both quieten the thing down further and direct cooling air to the right areas.

I've looked around at potentially suitable model aircraft motors and few seem to have a kV low enough for direct drive. Assuming we need around 50V or so available to charge a 36V pack fully and that the engine runs at around 4000rpm, then we'd need a motor with a kV of about 80, which seems too low for anything I've found so far.

The way around this small problem might be to drive the motor/generator via small belt reduction, perhaps around 3:1. An alternative might be a model-type gearbox, I believe that these are fairly readily available with the right sort of ratios although I don't know how noisy they are, or how they would tolerate being run backwards. This gets us up to a required motor/generator kV of about 240 or so, which is far more promising. It would also allow for easier electric starts, as the motor wouldn't be required to deliver as much starting torque.

A brush motor, rather than brushless, would keep things simple but suitable motors seem hard to get hold of, based on a hour or so of happy Googling. Brushless motors of around 240 - 260kV, with the right sort of current ratings, are fairly easy to find. This http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/...uct=6773&Product_Name=Turnigy_e-drive_5335/10 motor looks OK, and costs $56. It has a kV of 230 and a current rating of far more than is needed for a small generator.

The snag with using a brushless motor is that the electric start option is harder to rig up, as a brushless controller needs to be switched in to the three phase wires, via a fairly hefty three pole relay. The advantage is that the motor should make a slightly more efficient generator and also that rectifying three phase (dead easy with just six diodes) will give a smoother output to the charging circuit, I think.

Some sort of control system will be needed, not just to start/stop the generator as required, but also to regulate the throttle with varying demand from the generator. It may be that some form of simple speed governor might be good enough, but I think I'd be inclined to use a model aircraft throttle control servo, driven by the control system. That way it should be possible to create a system that works pretty much the same way as a hybrid car.

I've got too many projects on the go to spend too much time on this now, but I may well start collecting bits as they come along to make a possible addition to my electric motorcycle. It'd be neat to have a proper hybrid two wheeler.

Jeremy
 
Jeremy,

AXI will do one-off custom windings for their motors, for a fairly modest premium. Maybe they would even do a small batch for us at the normal retail price... Anyway, kV of 80 shouldn't be a problem. How about a custom AXI 5345?

The other possibility is to use one of the Scorpion kits and wind them ourselves.
 
For the ignorant amongst us, are you talking about 80 kV meaning 80,000 volts! :shock: :roll: I'm not siting on that and there was talk of 230kV - quarter of a million volts! Not on my bike!
My toothbrush charges up inductively. Why can't I just put a bobbin with coil wound round it around the "prop shaft" of the RC petrol motor and feed the high voltage output into a DC-DC converter to get a charging current :?
Be patient with me :D
 
R/C enthusiasts use "kV" to express "rpm per volt".

:D
 
Thanks for that, Miles, I'm not at all up to speed on this model motor stuff. The idea of a motor kit sounds good, as we could wind it with loads more, thinner gauge, wire. That would get the kV down to something very usable, and as we only need to pull a few amps from the thing it shouldn't affect the efficiency too badly.

The only snag I can see from doing this is that the motor might not have enough torque to work as a starter as well. I can't help but think that having the ability to start and stop the generator automatically, as required by the battery SOC, would be a neat idea.

It look like I need to do a crash course on model motor technology!

Meanwhile, I'd better get back to building the capacitor discharge cell tab welder, as I have a stack of cells waiting to be built into a pack.

Jeremy
 
Direct drive is definitely the way to go. It would not be that hard to rewind a RC motor.
A Kollmorgen motor looked like a good fit for the GX-31. Ideally, you'd just put magnets on the flywheel of the ICE and build a stator to fit around it.

If you have a brushless controller to use the motor as a starter, the body diodes in the controller will double as a rectifier when it's in the generator mode. A sensorless RC controller might work.

The GX-31 plus brushed motor mockup I made weighs about the same as a pair of 12ah lead acid bricks.

It wouldn't be too hard to rig a voltage comparator circuit to automatically stop and start the engine. Alternately, you could keep the engine running and control the throttle with something like an RC servo.
 
Jeremy, Paul, Miles, fechter,

I wouldn't worry too much about aiming for a particular voltage output. A DC-DC converter for an application like this is simple enough to design and build - either step up or step down. It also helps solves the problem of regulation. An external voltage converter would surely be better than rewinding a motor/generator.

Nick
 
I got a reply from James Hudson of Sullivan Products. He couldn't give me any prices without knowing the application, so I pointed him at this thread. We'll see what he comes up with.
 
dogman said:
The cowboy calculation for my trike is about a mile range per amp hour..

sorry? I don't understand why many of you so often use Ah as a factor for energy, it is not. You should write in Wh, for example. I use about 0.55Wh/km on my recumbent @30kmh w/o pedaling, and that is with a 48V pack, so it's about 0.12Ah. There must be something wrong with your calculations...
 
Thats why I called it a cowboy calculation, or as they taught me in the colledge of agricutlture, a guestimate. Having no tools to measure anything except voltage, all I know is my bike goes 20 miles on a 20 ah battery. Send me a free cycyleanalyst and I'll talk watthours. I haven't a clue watt my power use is. I suspect your coeficient of drag is a lot better on a nice recumbent than a schwinn trike. And range sucks with brushed hubs. It's not really so much of a calculation as a bad experience, running out of juice repeatedly enough to confirm it.
 
Watt hours is as straightforward to calculate as amp hours. All you need to know is the voltage of your battery pack. Watts = volts x amps, so watt hours = volts x amp hours.

The great advantage of using watt hours is that it's a true indication of power used, so allows bikes with different voltage battery packs to be compared directly.

As an example, a 24V bike might use, say, 2 Ah per mile. A 48V bike might well only use 1 Ah per mile. Both are actually using the same power per mile, as 24 x 2 = 48 as does 48 x 1.

(I made up those numbers just to illustrate the point)

Jeremy
 
Being one of those math challenged individuals, it never occured to me I could measure the watt hours used by my bike without a watts up, or a cycleanalyst. The great thing about this forum is Iearn stuff, thanks. Rememering tomorrow something I learned today, well, still working on that one. So my estimated power used by my trike would be 36 watt hours per mile. I sitll can't measure it accurately, it may be as low as 30 watt hours. 36 x 15 mph = 540 watt hours to ride one mile. So does that mean it would take a 540 watt geneator to have infinite range? I was guessing about a 500 watt gennie would be enough, and considering you could rest the hubmotor, so you don't fry it , about 15 minuites every 45, maybe you need about 400. If you lighten up from my weight of 97 pounds for gen and battery, you only need a 200 or 300 watt generator to have close to infinite range.

And raphael, are you efficient or what? I must be confused with my math, do you go 83 kilometers on one amp hour of 48 volt battery? The 36 watt hours I use per mile is at full throttle on an inefficient motor going 25 mph or more. At 30 kph I suspect my range would be at least double . It takes some juice to make my trike haul ass.
 
Jeremy Harris said:
The only snag I can see from doing this is that the motor might not have enough torque to work as a starter as well. I can't help but think that having the ability to start and stop the generator automatically, as required by the battery SOC, would be a neat idea.

Anyone like to make a guess at the torque required to start this size of motor? I like this idea, too, so maybe we should start from there. Get one and measure, I suppose...
 
Raphael said:
dogman said:
The cowboy calculation for my trike is about a mile range per amp hour..

sorry? I don't understand why many of you so often use Ah as a factor for energy, it is not. You should write in Wh, for example. I use about 0.55Wh/km on my recumbent @30kmh w/o pedaling, and that is with a 48V pack, so it's about 0.012Ah. There must be something wrong with your calculations...

Raphael, if your bike is truly that efficient it should be confiscated and mass-produced. Most people around here report figures in the order of 15Wh/mile. And you quote about 1Wh/mile; I think it's your calculations that are wrong :wink: :D
I agree that we should talk in Wh though, not Ah.
 
I made a mistake yesterday late, some of you may have recognised that that point was too far on the left ;)

So, yes, I use about 5.5Wh/km @30km w/o pedaling and that comes down to 0.12Ah @48V.
15Wh is WAY to much on a recumbent, maybe they should start bringing some pressure to their tires and lower their seats ;)

Here is a picture of our bike, exactly in that configuration it uses around 5.5Wh/km.

huebel.jpg
 
That is still pretty good by my standards. But your speed is slower so much more efficient. A lot of us in america are using the e bike to get there faster, as well as easier. My brushed hub is not so efficient, but it it fast. It's a problem with the trike which runs on lead acid. But the grocery store is close enough for it and it costs about 3-5 cents to charge. I'm a notorious cheapskate, but that I can afford. For the longer commuting rides, my mtb is far more eficient since it has gearing. Wastefull compared to a recumbent for sure, but with a big fat lithium battery in that bike, I again care more about speed than eficiency, and have at least 30% charge left when I get home. Back when I was trying to make it to work and back on lead batteries I was trying everything to be more eficient. It was just much easier to eliminate the problem with more battery.

I think, at least for a trike, that can carry a lot, or a bike and trailer, the way to go may be exactly where they are going with plug in hybrids. Carry a really big battery, like 40 ah of lithium weighing about 30 pounds, combined with a tiny little ac generator. Maybe as small as 4 amps of charging current. The ping battery can only charge at 5 anyway. That could possibly be as light as 20 pounds. So the charge as you go wouldn't be so signifigant as the no need to find a plug. Here in the west, you really can be looking at 70 miles between places to charge, but so what if all you have to do is stop for a few hours. Even on my funky trike, you would make it at least 40 miles before the battery got low. By then in my climate, the hub would be melted anyway. I'm not sure I could stand 40 miles at a time in the saddle anyway. How to start and stop the generator would not matter so much since it would just about never want to stop, and if the battery fills, the charger stops the current to the battery.

I just got back from looking at that honda motor. Heck yeah, that is plenty light enough. I think the main reason for the weight of my little generator is so it stays where you set it down. Any lighter and no telling where it would be after it ran awhile. But bolted in, that wouldn't be an issue, so maybe you could get a small generator, and just put the lighter, smaller engine on it, and have a 400 watt output with the smaller engine. All kinds of weight on my gennie in steel shrouds and stuff.
 
when I'm telling what our bike uses @30kmh, that doesn't necessarily mean that's it's top-speed ;)
Top-speed w/o pedaling is 42kmh, and with light pedaling we get up to 52kmh. That's fast enough for me, and we can cruise along like this 2 hours and do 100km out of 1 battery pack with 576Wh. That's enough for us :)
 
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