=>12G Spokes on a 24" Rim (36H)

Bison_69

Bison_69

100 W
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
137
Location
Quebec, QC
Here is an answer to DoctorBass topic (because unfortunatly there is no POST REPLY option available in the Technical Reference Area)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32200&p=466558#p466558

First I really don't understand why you have to destroy those nice rim... I have the exact same rim and was able to install my 12G spokes and nipples ordered from NewsonSportec http://www.newsonsportec.com/ (which I paid half the price you paid for yours).... Doing so you are also weakening the complete rim structure and shorten its normal lifespan...

To fit the nipples I simply followed the instructions from YPedal and it worked perfectly.... (using a small circular file tool)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ypedal#p/u/14/7-QZazAY0cc

(see the enclosed pictures)
Rear wheel view1.JPG
 
Wow, those spokes look bent, was the pic taken before they were tensioned properly?
 
Bison_69 said:
Here is an answer to DoctorBass topic (because unfortunatly there is no POST REPLY option available in the Technical Reference Area)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32200&p=466558#p466558

First I really don't understand why you have to destroy those nice rim... I have the exact same rim and was able to install my 12G spokes and nipples ordered from NewsonSportec http://www.newsonsportec.com/ (which I paid half the price you paid for yours).... Doing so you are also weakening the complete rim structure and shorten its normal lifespan...

To fit the nipples I simply followed the instructions from YPedal and it worked perfectly.... (using a small circular file tool)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ypedal#p/u/14/7-QZazAY0cc

(see the enclosed pictures)
View attachment 1
Click to expand...

Hi Sylvain,

Believe me... with my experience, i can say that the way i'll assemble this rim will be stronger than any previous attempt.

First, by using a file, the eyeslet are weaken so they become nearly useless. Also, the nipple MUST follow an angle wich is in the exact direction of the dedicated motor hole. Bending spoke make them to weak near the treads is begining due to the too high angle the spoke is doing.

Remember how motorcross wheel are made.. the nipple have the perfect angle to NOT bend the spoke

the nipple wich have an angle on the top end wich would normally force the hole on the rim to enlarge and crack so this is why i'll use a spacer. Not a washer but a nut. nut are thicker and will distribute the pressure over a larger area than the edge of the hole in the rim.

so.. the nipple top will push against the nut that will push to the larger diameter area.

Yes, i also planned to have longer spokes to add the tickness of the nut.

I did the exact same thing for my 20" wheel wich is still perfect and really string... REMEMBER... it'S A RADIAL LACING AND I TOWED A SCHOOLBUS WITH IT ! :wink:

I can say that on all the too much bended spokes wheel i had, they all ended by breaking. Spokes just crack near the nipple where the bending is too high , just near the tread begin...

I will not build a wheel that will attempt to go at 140kmh that i think it could weak 8)

Doc
 
I must add that the main idea is this:

- to be able to fit 12 gauge spokes to normal eyeslet rim
- to gave stronger wheel assembly
- to use a known mecanical principle to distribute the force with uniformity around a hole ( spherical washer technique)
- Having a larger surface in the rim than a common eyeslet offer where the pressure is applied by the nipple.
- Be able to NOT bend the spokes and have a stronger wheel
- Having better quality spokes and nipples with HOLMES HOBBIES LLC stuff than the past NewsonSportec one wich had a REALLY bad QC.. ( half the nipples was unusable )

The spherical washer is a known device in mecanical ingeneering that allow to apply a force that is applied in a specific direction and to preserve the uniformity of the pressure applied on the parts.

imgres


images
 

Attachments

  • 12g spokes with better nipple and eyeslet.JPG
    12g spokes with better nipple and eyeslet.JPG
    65 KB · Views: 2,105
Hi Stéphane,

I know that your idea is good... but the main problem remain that you are still not protecting the thin wall where the nipple will be rubbing and putting some bad pressure against...

An eyelet remain an eyelet otherwise engineers would had never developped the concept. (BTW when I mounted my spokes and nipples I took off a very small amount of material from the eyelets just a few shot of file tool... the nipple's diameter where not that big)

View attachment 1

Ref. (SUN Ringlé Technical) http://www.sun-ringle.com/wheel-science/
Rim Eyelets.jpg
 
So Doc
Just so I am clear on this...do you use a small nut or do you use sphericl awasher pair such as:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/spherical-washers/washers/fasteners/ecatalog/N-8om

and if you use the spehrical washer...what size do you use for the standard 12 gauge nipple?

Thanks

Neil
 
Some people do, and if you can find one that is suitabel and know a name and manufacturer...let us know. I have been looking for a while without success
 
NeilP said:
So Doc
Just so I am clear on this...do you use a small nut or do you use sphericl awasher pair such as:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/spherical-washers/washers/fasteners/ecatalog/N-8om

and if you use the spehrical washer...what size do you use for the standard 12 gauge nipple?

Thanks

Neil
Click to expand...


I will use the nut. it's way cheaper and will offer similar seat than the spherical washer.

Doc
 
parabellum said:
Doctorbass said:
Remember how motorcross wheel are made.. the nipple have the perfect angle to NOT bend the spoke
Click to expand...

So why we don't just us them? :D
Click to expand...

I agree it's a giid idea and i've been thinging about that already...

but i wold say that they weight 2+ pounds more than a conventional ebike rim... :?

Doc
 
Bison_69 said:
but the main problem remain that you are still not protecting the thin wall where the nipple will be rubbing and putting some bad pressure against...
Click to expand...


Are you talking about the area where it's the tickness of the rim that have the nipple touching it? If si i dont thing it is so bad, the nipple are round part and the rim aluninum is anodized...

Doc
 
NeilP said:
Some people do, and if you can find one that is suitabel and know a name and manufacturer...let us know. I have been looking for a while without success
Click to expand...
I do not see any manufacturer marks on it, I just got to motorcycle shop and bought 1.2x17" alloy rim (it is used on Yamaha Crypton) and 2.25-17.33l tire. Material thickness is about 4 mm and have ripped of 3 nipples and bend the rim on hard jump over sharp stone edge, but tire shop repaired it easily. Double wall rim cracks under this conditions usually. Payed 25U$ for rim and 20U$ for tire.
Doctorbass said:
I agree it's a giid idea and i've been thinging about that already...

but i wold say that they weight 2+ pounds more than a conventional ebike rim... :?

Doc
Click to expand...

Have not took any wight, but I think there is about 2lbs difference if rim and tire together+ spokes are 3.2 mm. But if you lace it in to x5 hub, the difference is kind of unnoticeable. :D
 
 
I think tire weight is a larger issue than rim weight if you go moto.. I have laced up off road moto wheels before and from what I remember they are heavy more because of the hub and tire than the rim.
 
Bison_69 said:
Hi Guys,

The best would be something closer to a 24'' wheel.... then with a 3'' fat tire your O.D. would be close to a standard 26'' tire.

Here are some motorcycle rim I have found on the net (21'' X 1,6'' with 36 holes):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOTORCYCLE-WHEEL-RIM-TAKASAGO-21X1-6-36-HOLES-/140569624982
http://www.radmfg.com/CACR-Rim-21x1-60-p/cacr-21x160.htm
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p...avType=type&prodFamilyId=13212&stockId=109708
http://dirtbikesupplies.newhotshopping.com/warp-9-rim---front-36-spoke-hole-21-x-1-6-silver
http://www.central-wheel.co.uk/rims/morad_rim/morad_rim.html (23'' X 1,6)
Click to expand...

I have 1 of those as well, but I could only find motocross or enduro knobby tires for and they are over 3" (2.75X21) thick when inflated, I only have 3" space. They are damn heavy as well.
 
parabellum said:
[

I have 1 of those as well, but I could only find motocross or enduro knobby tires for and they are over 3" (2.75X21) thick when inflated, I only have 3" space. They are damn heavy as well.
Click to expand...


What actual rim size do you have? a 1.6 diameter or a bigger one?


Also general question to all...when measuring the ERD on a motorcycle rim...how do you do that? because of the angled spoke drillings...any correction that needs to be made? or do you just get a pair of spokes seat them opposite each other and measure as you would for a normal bike rim without offset drillings?
 
NeilP said:
parabellum said:
[

I have 1 of those as well, but I could only find motocross or enduro knobby tires for and they are over 3" (2.75X21) thick when inflated, I only have 3" space. They are damn heavy as well.
Click to expand...


What actual rim size do you have? a 1.6 diameter or a bigger one?


Also general question to all...when measuring the ERD on a motorcycle rim...how do you do that? because of the angled spoke drillings...any correction that needs to be made? or do you just get a pair of spokes seat them opposite each other and measure as you would for a normal bike rim without offset drillings?
Click to expand...
J 21x1.60 6 84 DOT. It is alloy rim used on Honda XR 250 enduro, but i never came to mount it on the hub because of mentioned issues. Or are you speaking about my 17" rim?
 
Well you said
parabellum said:
I have 1 of those as well, but I could only find motocross or enduro knobby tires for and they are over 3" (2.75X21) thick when inflated, I only have 3" space. They are damn heavy as well.
Click to expand...
So i am referring to the same one you are referring to , that one...which I assume is the 21 inch
 
NeilP said:
So i am referring to the same one you are referring to , that one...which I assume is the 21 inch
Click to expand...

Yeah, 21x1.6

Edit: little over 2" outside

Edit 2: I also calculate the size with calculator +-, then buy few spokes about the size I need(they are only few choises available) then try. Sometimes I grind peaces that came out of nipple inside. Easy! :D
 
Well I just got given a 21 inch wheel by a mate. 21 x 1.88 36 hole
For reference for future...a 21 inch m/c rim is almost exactly the same diameter as a stnadard 26 inch MTB rim ...so going to be too big once a tyre is on without modifying the frame

Looked at a tyre store yesterday, and it looks like 19 inch tyres are about the same diameter as a 26 inch MTB wheel.
So, to try and match a MTB wheel for size, a 17 inch tyre is too small and a 21 inch rim would be too big...so will try and narrow it down further today see what I can find in between those sizes and compare
 
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