Heat will be a problem for the guys like me who want a build hi end motorcycle projects!recumpence said:We can run a thread program for the fins. Of course, we can also just turn the center portion of the can down with no fins, then run a sleeve around that. RC boats use a sleeve just like that.Miles said:
Thing is, I highly doubt heat will be an issue at all. But, we may be able to get 30kw out of this crazy motor IF it were liquid cooled. You never know.
Actually, back 10 years ago, I was liquid cooling car audio amplifiers. So, I am very familiar with small scale water pumps, small radiators, and related equipment as well as air bubble purging from these systems. Of course, now we have PC liquid cooling systems. It would not be difficult to hybrid one of those to cool a motor.
Again, I doubt heat will be a problem.
Matt
14kw continuous 94% efficient motor.......
- Thread starter recumpence
- Start date
liveforphysics
100 TW
I don't doubt it would never have heat problems for reasonable builds and reasonable high power levels.
But... The limit of a PMBLDC's power is when the heat reaches the danger temp for the magnets or insulation on the windings. If you're not nearing this point, you're not nearing the power limits.
In other words, for the folks that like to get the most from a motor, heating is always a concern, because if it's not a concern, you're not getting as much from your motor as you could be.
But... The limit of a PMBLDC's power is when the heat reaches the danger temp for the magnets or insulation on the windings. If you're not nearing this point, you're not nearing the power limits.
In other words, for the folks that like to get the most from a motor, heating is always a concern, because if it's not a concern, you're not getting as much from your motor as you could be.
Water-cooling: radial fins are much faster and easier to cut. Encase the fins with an aluminum cylinder, and flow a liquid through all 9 slots at the same time. Instead of flowing from one end to the other in a helical slot, flow from one side to the other. You only need to seal the encasing cylinder on the two end-caps, a small amount of cross-flow from one slot to the other won't hurt anything.
Many short paths around the motor instead of one long path. Turbocharger intercoolers are typically rectangularly shaped to be placed at the front of a car. Early models flowed from one side to the other, IIRC, now, most flow from the top to the bottom for less restriction to flow.
This will also create slower fluid flow and less back-pressure on the pump. For a pump, you can use an internal carbon-steel impellor inside a stainless-steel/aluminum housing (non-magnetic). The internal impellor can be spun by an external spinning magnet, so it would be seal-less with one less possible leak-point. The magnet should be on the outside to keep it cooler.
I recommend automatic transmission fluid (ATF). If the vehicle has aluminum tubing in some part of the frame, consider using that part of the frame as the heat-shedder. Porsche's Auto-Union Silver Arrow of 1934 flowed coolant through the tube-frame from the mid-engine to the front radiator. The frame shed so much heat, they could use a much smaller radiator than anticipated.
Many short paths around the motor instead of one long path. Turbocharger intercoolers are typically rectangularly shaped to be placed at the front of a car. Early models flowed from one side to the other, IIRC, now, most flow from the top to the bottom for less restriction to flow.
This will also create slower fluid flow and less back-pressure on the pump. For a pump, you can use an internal carbon-steel impellor inside a stainless-steel/aluminum housing (non-magnetic). The internal impellor can be spun by an external spinning magnet, so it would be seal-less with one less possible leak-point. The magnet should be on the outside to keep it cooler.
I recommend automatic transmission fluid (ATF). If the vehicle has aluminum tubing in some part of the frame, consider using that part of the frame as the heat-shedder. Porsche's Auto-Union Silver Arrow of 1934 flowed coolant through the tube-frame from the mid-engine to the front radiator. The frame shed so much heat, they could use a much smaller radiator than anticipated.
mr.electric
10 kW
I have heard that a car can actually over heat if you completely remove the thermostat because the coolant is moving too quickly and does not have enough time in the radiator. I'm not sure if that is an old wives tale or not.
etard
100 kW
....? :?[/quote]etard said:
Well we have high power amps, but they are huge square monstrosities that don't seem to fit with the shapes and curves of motorbikes, plus they are a bit pricey IMHO. Correct me if I am wrong
It would seem better to double the output of the motor with watercooling than adding the complexity, inefficiency and expense of another motor and controller.
recumpence
1 GW
Absolutely! That is the main reason I want a single large motor.
Oh, Kelly just returned an email I sent them regarding the 40,000 mechanical RPM limit of their controllers. They said they make a high speed option (new chip?) for the controllers to achieve far higher RPM. I asked if they can double that RPM and they said absolutely. Next I asked how high they could go. I am waiting a return email on that. I know their controllers are large. But, they go up to 500 amps! Now, for loads like that, liquid cooling may be needed.
Matt
Oh, Kelly just returned an email I sent them regarding the 40,000 mechanical RPM limit of their controllers. They said they make a high speed option (new chip?) for the controllers to achieve far higher RPM. I asked if they can double that RPM and they said absolutely. Next I asked how high they could go. I am waiting a return email on that. I know their controllers are large. But, they go up to 500 amps! Now, for loads like that, liquid cooling may be needed.
Matt
Liquid cooling should be on all of them weather you need it or not.. Why by a motor this powerfull if you dont push it to the limits now and then? So a guy could make the motor the way you show it and have a sleeve that slides on it to feed coolent in one end and out the other or in bother ends and out the center just buy drilling holes through each rib on oposite sides alternating from one end to the other! This way you could leave the sleave off for the air cooled version and slide it on for the liquid cooled version.
recumpence
1 GW
The issue I have with that is, if the total power is only occasionally tapped into maybe for a minute or less, the thermal mass of the motor would absorb that easily.
Hmm, if the market wants liquid cooling, I will take it in that direction.
I can tell you the motor itself would not be too much more difficult to manufacture (maybe an extra $75 or so?).
Matt
Hmm, if the market wants liquid cooling, I will take it in that direction.
I can tell you the motor itself would not be too much more difficult to manufacture (maybe an extra $75 or so?).
Matt
recumpence
1 GW
I looked into aluminum sleeve from Online Metals. It looks like liquid cooling would be pretty easy. The outer sleeve is about $8 per motor (or less) and the O-rings to seal both sleeve sides would cost about $1 each. The sleeve could also be epoxied in place. But, O-rings allow for sleeve removal if needed.
Anyway, I wonder how much power this motor could put out with liquid cooling? If it is 90% efficient under heavy load (may be as low as 88% with a HUGE load), at 30,000 watts, we are looking at 3,000 watts of heat. That is really not much for a liquid cooling system. Hmm, how about 40,000 watts? I wonder what the saturation point of the motor would be in reality? I mean, how far could it be taken before it is just not producing any more power?
This could get interesting!
Matt
Anyway, I wonder how much power this motor could put out with liquid cooling? If it is 90% efficient under heavy load (may be as low as 88% with a HUGE load), at 30,000 watts, we are looking at 3,000 watts of heat. That is really not much for a liquid cooling system. Hmm, how about 40,000 watts? I wonder what the saturation point of the motor would be in reality? I mean, how far could it be taken before it is just not producing any more power?
This could get interesting!
Matt
recumpence
1 GW
I think Luke is the expert destructo here.
Matt
Matt
fairlyfaded
1 mW
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2009
- Messages
- 11
I am very curious to know what you are using for your rotor. Are you using a stretched version of the original? Have any pictures of the internals?
Michael
Michael
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi Matt,
stacks) with sensors, more torque and lower kv's than their existing motors. How many Astro 3210's, 8150's and 3220's are you and Bob currently selling per year for Ebike and Emotorcycle use? Because a series of sensored, heavy duty 4.5" diameter motor models would be superior and the market is in its infancy. Also if you are creative can you reduce the out of pocket cost?
Some shooting from the hip ideas:
Do you plan to make sensor kits to fit (or retrofit) standard Astro 3210's, 8150's and 3220's (I think you should)?recumpence said:
I don't think Hal is doing it as a commercial venture. If I'm correct (check with Hal first) you should spec it as you and potential customers desire.recumpence said:
You might want to consider the 4.5" diameter motors more carefully. It's not one 4.5" diameter motor but a potential series (1", 2" and 3"recumpence said:
stacks) with sensors, more torque and lower kv's than their existing motors. How many Astro 3210's, 8150's and 3220's are you and Bob currently selling per year for Ebike and Emotorcycle use? Because a series of sensored, heavy duty 4.5" diameter motor models would be superior and the market is in its infancy. Also if you are creative can you reduce the out of pocket cost? Some shooting from the hip ideas:
- John has talked about investing in a motor.
I bet some other investors would be interested.
hire someone from the forum or a potential customer to do some of the work and pay them in motors or a hot ebike
maybe Hal can get some work done in Croatia for less
maybe someone has connections to get some work done in China or South Korea etc.
Bob might know or have a pretty good idea, why don't you ask him?recumpence said:
recumpence
1 GW
I know Hal pretty well. I can talk to him about it. I have a professional courtesy mindset when it comes to these things.
Yes, once we get the sensor details worked out, I would love to market a sensor kit for existing Astro motors.
As for total output power capability, I can tell you I have seen 16kw out of one 3220 in accelleration bursts. So, this motor is at least good for 24kw in bursts based on that information. I would bet 30kw would be a number I could hold to with active cooling, maybe more. Yes, I will be talking to Bob about it. It would be nice to market this as a Agni replacement that is 1/4 the weight. That would require 30kw bursts, which again I think is no problem with cooling.
Now, that begin said, yes I am still interested in looking into the 4.5 inch rotor motors especially if these work out very well. The larger diameter motors would be perfect for a motorcycle. A 4.5 inch diameter motor with a 5 inch stack would be good for 60kw easily (again with active cooling, either fans or liquid).
One step at a time, though.
I do not like using outside investors. I have been burned a few times. Heck, last year $23,000 was stolen from me by (get this) a childhood friend!
I am a bit gun-shy at this point.
Anyway, this motor is a fantastic step in the right direction.
Matt
Yes, once we get the sensor details worked out, I would love to market a sensor kit for existing Astro motors.
As for total output power capability, I can tell you I have seen 16kw out of one 3220 in accelleration bursts. So, this motor is at least good for 24kw in bursts based on that information. I would bet 30kw would be a number I could hold to with active cooling, maybe more. Yes, I will be talking to Bob about it. It would be nice to market this as a Agni replacement that is 1/4 the weight. That would require 30kw bursts, which again I think is no problem with cooling.
Now, that begin said, yes I am still interested in looking into the 4.5 inch rotor motors especially if these work out very well. The larger diameter motors would be perfect for a motorcycle. A 4.5 inch diameter motor with a 5 inch stack would be good for 60kw easily (again with active cooling, either fans or liquid).
One step at a time, though.
I do not like using outside investors. I have been burned a few times. Heck, last year $23,000 was stolen from me by (get this) a childhood friend!
I am a bit gun-shy at this point.
Anyway, this motor is a fantastic step in the right direction.
Matt
recumpence
1 GW
Miles said:Matt,recumpence said:
Maybe you could see if you have better luck trying to contact Steve Neu, than Gary?
You mean "Rather than Bob"?
Yup, I am looking into it. Nic Case (RC car land speed record holder) is a good friend of Steve and of mine. He is talking to Steve (well, mentioning it to him) this week.
Matt
REdiculous
10 kW
18.77HP continuous? I find that pretty hard to believe unless the motor is the size of my head. What's the secret? Does it require one to sacrifice a goat or something? later
REdiculous
10 kW
There's no way you're putting 291a into the motor at 48v...so what's the voltage requirement? 250v would mean like 56a for 14kw...
johnrobholmes
10 MW
100v will likely be the big power starting point.
recumpence
1 GW
Says who?REdiculous said:
This motor will be 93% to 94% efficient. At 20kw, that is only 600 to 700 watts of heat. The surface area of the can is enough to dissipate that.
This is also not a guess. I have run Astro 3220 motors (2/3 the size of this motor with no fins) at 10kw without any problems at all. Bear in mind, for bicycles and light motorcycles, the intermittant duty of the motor is what is important. That being said, my highest power trike uses two of the affore mentioned 3220 motors. I pull 400 amps from EACH of the two motors at 40 volts [under load]. That is only for short bursts. But, again, they hold up fine and short burst is what these motors normally see.
Now, moving to liquid cooling should bring those burst ratings up to continuous ratings.
You may not have much experience with high ouput, highly efficient motors of this type. 4hp per pound is no big deal for these motors.
Matt
REdiculous
10 kW
You're right, little experience w/ these. I'm more familiar with bigger motors that are rated more conservatively...
At 14kw you'll have about 840w of heat (corrections welcome)...
14000*0.94=13160w (used)
14000-13160=840w (wasted)
I don't doubt the peak-ability but I just don't see how it can handle 800w of heat continuously. I know fins help and so will natural airflow (because we know these are for going fast!) but..still.
It sounds like a great motor(!), I just think the continuous rating is slightly inflated. 10kw seems like a fair continuous rating to me. At 20kw..
20000*0.94=18800w (used)
20000-18800=1200w (wasted)
Am I way off on my thinking or what am I missing? later
At 14kw you'll have about 840w of heat (corrections welcome)...
14000*0.94=13160w (used)
14000-13160=840w (wasted)
I don't doubt the peak-ability but I just don't see how it can handle 800w of heat continuously. I know fins help and so will natural airflow (because we know these are for going fast!) but..still.
It sounds like a great motor(!), I just think the continuous rating is slightly inflated. 10kw seems like a fair continuous rating to me. At 20kw..
20000*0.94=18800w (used)
20000-18800=1200w (wasted)
Am I way off on my thinking or what am I missing? later
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