2015 And EU Future Economic Predictions

Well things look to be turning out badly - no doubt aided by the EU President Merkel. Germany once again at the forefront showing their political and economic incompetence and acting unilaterally to everyone else's detriment.

One thing I do agree with and that's keeping the US as far away from this as possible. Their record on foreign soil since WW2 is probably the worst of any nation the world has ever seen and everyone else is always left picking up the pieces.

From what I've read and anecdotally seen on television - it seems mostly adult males that are arriving in Europe. I read elsewhere that the Eurostat figures show that the majority of the immigrants in Hungary are from Kosovo - only a quarter of them are from genuine war-torn countries such as Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. I've also read about Sweden's problems in Malmo (80,000 out of a population of 200,000 are asylum seekers) and Gothenburg. Of course France has got serious concerns too. Maybe we have become far too tolerant of the intolerant.

This makes very sobering reading from the Gatestone think tank group.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones


http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2015/09/07/eu-must-finally-show-leadership-in-the-middle-east

EU must finally show leadership in the Middle East
Posted in Sunday Business Post · 32 comments · SHARE d e h
On March 21, 2004 – a year after America invaded Iraq and one week after the Madrid bombings where 191 commuters were murdered by Islamic fundamentalists – I wrote the following in this column.

I am reproducing it now not to appear prescient, but because I believe the geopolitical analysis to be correct today, and because I believe that if the EU is to be a serious global player it has to involve itself directly in the redrawing of the map of the Middle East with money, military and diplomacy.

Here’s what I argued in 2004:

“As the British Empire collapsed into chaos, the Muslim population was terrorised off its lands in one disputed region. In 1948, a civil war erupted between the Muslim and non-Muslim peoples of this region.

Historically, the smaller non-Muslim group had lived in peace with their majority neighbours, but in 1948 it seized its chance.

The newly-founded UN, based on an earlier British promise and postwar guilt, gave this group a new state. As the civil war raged and pogroms ensued, ethnic cleansing on a monumental scale created millions of refugees.

The British did what they do best and partitioned the country. The majority Muslim areas of the protectorate were divided in two – a large Muslim state and a small sliver of terribly overpopulated land wedged against the sea. This small, pathetic piece of land is now among the poorest places in the world. It is sealed off by a heavily patrolled border, characterised by desperation, and is a breeding ground for Islamic fundamentalism.

The bigger Muslim entity was cut off from its hinterland, with only tiny access to the ocean. Beside it, a new democratic but non-Muslim state emerged, absorbing displaced refugees from far and wide.

These two states have been involved in three major wars since 1948. The borders are today the most heavily policed in the world, with two huge standing armies eyeballing each other over disputed territory.

Where am I talking about? Not Israel and Palestine. Arguably, it is the far more worrying conflict between India and Pakistan. If the story sounds like Palestine, it is because both conflicts are the result of the collapse of empire, whether British or Ottoman.

Many observers are now warning about the impending collapse of what is left of the Ottoman settlement. The implications of this are so significant that it is difficult to know where to begin.

The vast area between the border of India/Pakistan and the Mediterranean at Tel Aviv and Gaza is an ethnic fabrication. What we now call the Middle East is the creation of British and French bureaucrats who cobbled together the maps in an agreement called the Sykes-Picot pact.

This agreement laid the groundwork and ground rules for the way that Britain and France carved up the Ottoman Empire between them, prior to its demise in the latter stages of World War I.

It paved the way for subsequent development in the region, including the establishment of Iraq, Palestine, Trans-Jordan (invented by Winston Churchill one afternoon in 1922), Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia as distinct political entities and, in theory, nation states.

This process of diplomatic and military engineering has proved remarkably stable. Amongst other upheavals, it survived several Israeli/Arab wars.

The arrival of the Americans in the heart of the region has irrevocably changed the whole picture.

The concern now (one year after the war) is not only what happens to Iraq, but what happens to the region. How long will Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon last in their present guise?

And if there is an implosion, what else will change? What chain of events could trigger upheaval? Might it, like the collapse of the USSR ten years ago, be dramatic but amazingly peaceful? Or could it be violent? And where would that violence end – in Madras, Mecca or Madrid?”

Today, in 2015, we know that this is what has happened. The countries that were Syria and Iraq are no more. The region is embroiled in a vicious sectarian and ethnic civil war, which has been fuelled by barbarous Islamists from all over the world.

Jordan is extremely fragile, as is Lebanon, while Saudi Arabia has been reduced to financing the murderers of Isis because of its hatred of Iran, which is supporting Assad.

The Assad regime controls about a quarter of the old land mass of Syria but, apart from that, the entire region is controlled by a band of freelance militias and so-called armies from Hezbollah, Isis and Shi’ite militias under the direct control of the Iran Revolutionary Guards Corps.

This is a medieval vista of roving, stateless, mercenary armies terrorising defenceless people.

Historically, the implosion of the Middle East bears some similarity to the implosion of the Holy Roman Empire and the 30 Years War in 17th-century Europe. This was a similar sectarian war in a vacuum that had its own stateless, mercenary army under Wallenstein, who sided with the Pope against the Protestant forces of northern Germany.

By the way, at the end of the 30 Years War, a quarter of the population of the German principalities were dead. This is what we are looking at in the Middle East, if nothing is done. Nearly 20 million people have already been displaced, including 12 million in Syria, more than half the population.

Without massive outside intervention the slaughter will continue until either there are no Shias, Alawites and Christians left in Syria or there are no Sunni. This is a sectarian bloodbath.

It can only be stopped by the big powers doing something very old-fashioned, which is dividing up the region along ethnic lines.

Iraq needs to be divided up immediately into three separate countries: one Sunni, one Shia and one Kurd. Likewise, Syria has to be divided into two: one Shia/Christian/Alawite in the West and the other Sunni in the East.

There needs to be a true international force put in on the ground to police this new arrangement. We are seeing the unraveling of a post-colonial settlement – the post Ottoman settlement and the map needs to be redrawn immediately.

If not, the terrified refugees will just keep coming, because the war will get worse.

This is where the EU has to take the lead. It is the EU’s problem because America’s landmass is not affected. So having waited for the Americans to act internationally since 1945, the EU needs to act alone. It will have to involve two big power-brokers, Iran and Turkey – and to do this, it needs Russia. It also needs to get the US to lean on the Saudis.

It’s time for the EU to grow up and realise that it has geo-political responsibilities commensurate with its economic prowess. The free ride is over. It’s time for the EU to show leadership, otherwise it will have to deal with the demographic consequences of its political emasculation for years to come. The choice is ours.
 
If the Swede's with all their welfare and educational offerings can't get immigrants to integrate into Swedish society what hope does the rest of Europe have?

Here is the Gatestone Institute follow-up on the UK.

Perhaps Punx0r could attest if this is a real representation of what is happening or the presentation of a selective picture.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5177/no-go-zones-britain
 
It's not something I have direct experience of as I live in a very white area. Of the non-"white native British" people I know, all are completely integrated. However, I have driven through some of the areas mentioned or have friends who have lived near those areas and their opinions reflect the tone of the article. Personally, I'm not surprised at the idea of the widespread white-flight.

It's certainly an issue where past government has failed. Not in that they haven't forced communities together, or rigorously policed troublesome ethnic minorities, but in that they created an atmosphere of positive-discrimination. It's widely perceived that you cannot criticise a Muslim, nor can you have any kind of debate on immigration generally. Anyone doing so is automatically shouted down as a racist and this applies equally to the man-in-the-street, the police and politicians. Therefore, far from confronted and controlling problem communities, they've been given a soft touch. Like him or not, David Cameron's recent statement about how the UK has been for too tolerant of certain radical segments of society (specifically Muslim) is a welcome change and long overdue. My impression is that the average person doesn't want to see Muslims discriminated against, just the law and rules of society applied equally.
 
Yes, I think the backlash will start to get more and more vociferous as people start to wake up and look at the examples of what is happening in the UK, France and Sweden.

I'm not a fan of any religion (the scourge of humanity) but I'm certainly ardently against religious fundamentalists. Multiculturalism is dead. I don't claim to know where this is headed, perhaps I'm over-reacting, but one possibility is that this leads to the break-up of the EU. Letting Islamic migrants into Europe and obviously terrorists along with them is one of the most stupid things I have seen yet. Once again Germany are breaking EU rules (Dublin Treaty) and screwing everyone. Of all the ways to increase your population this happens to be one of the worst methods.
 
well you better be prepared for it because there are several million syrian and iraqi citizens who will be there over the next 4-5 months. on top of 500k from africa.

there is no reason the guvments should not be setting up camps to house these people until they can be sent back to syria and iraq after the civil war has ended.
 
dnmun said:
well you better be prepared for it because there are several million syrian and iraqi citizens who will be there over the next 4-5 months. on top of 500k from africa.

there is no reason the guvments should not be setting up camps to house these people until they can be sent back to syria and iraq after the civil war has ended.

It's not just refugees though and that's the biggest problem. From Hungary alone, 75 per cent of them are economic migrants from countries such as Kosovo and Pakistan. A lot of the people entering the Mediterranean are from sub-Saharan Africa and North Africa where there is no war.

The Dublin regulation is been completely ignored too. Not to mention that countries like Ireland have a growing homeless problem that is not being addressed at all. What Germany is proposing is permanent not temporary to suit their own self-interest and appease their guilt to the detriment of other European nations.

The biggest problem is that no one is addressing this issue at all or at least no one in the mainstream. The only people that have are the right-wing loons and UKIP and no one wants to self-identify with them. The media narrative is completely one-sided highlighting all the benefits but none of the downsides. As Punx0r alludes anyone who voices objection is labelled a discriminating deviant. But the empirical evidence suggests that Islamism is a growing problem in Europe and it will only get worse.

But all we are getting is emotive pictures such as that of Aylan 'Kurdi' who had free housing in Turkey and needlessly caused the death of his family despite his sister-in-law's reservations about the journey. No proper debate whatsoever.
 
well, you better adjust because they are coming. after they found out they could push through to europe and britain there will be no stopping them and there are 5 million syrians and 3 million iraqis alone who can claim refugee status. you will learn to love them.
 
dnmun said:
well, you better adjust because they are coming. after they found out they could push through to europe and britain there will be no stopping them and there are 5 million syrians and 3 million iraqis alone who can claim refugee status. you will learn to love them.

That's the thing though they can't push through to non-Schengen countries. The UK and Ireland never opted into Schengen. It's only EU citizens that have freedom to travel to non-Schengen countries.

Edit: Also should say that whatever about Ireland the real population of the UK is estimated to be 77 million people (going by the amount of food being purchased in the supermarkets - even factoring in obesity). For comparison Louisiana is slightly larger in area and has a population of only 4.6 million.
 
does not matter. you do not understand the huge push that has developed because of 'social media' and these people will figure out how to get across your borders and into your country no matter what you wish. they know you will not shoot them or decapitate them like ISIS so once they get there they know they are home free and live there and get benefits to support themselves and their family and will get schools and jobs, just as the mexicans and guatemalans who migrated to this country. we have 11 million or more so i see no reason you guys will not end up with 5 million refuges spread out from poland to wales.
 
dnmun said:
does not matter. you do not understand the huge push that has developed because of 'social media' and these people will figure out how to get across your borders and into your country no matter what you wish. they know you will not shoot them or decapitate them like ISIS so once they get there they know they are home free and live there and get benefits to support themselves and their family and will get schools and jobs, just as the mexicans and guatemalans who migrated to this country. we have 11 million or more so i see no reason you guys will not end up with 5 million refuges spread out from poland to wales.

I do understand social media and the power of group think (which also applies to me). But I think you're underestimating the backlash that will use those very same tools. People have a lot of concerns about hardcore Muslims and their lack of integration into society. Those concerns aren't being voiced yet due to social fears. That will come to the fore sooner rather than later especially when the inevitable terrorists in the midst start to strike.

Genuine refugees are in the minority, the majority of the immigrants are economic migrants and Europe has no reason for taking them in.

The real solution is to set up Shiite and Sunni states in the Middle East and give the Kurds their own nation as well. Then we need to cut off funding to Islamic extremists from Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
 
This places European sentiment in context.

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf

Eurostat Public Opinion Poll:

The immigration of people from outside the EU evokes a positive feeling for just
above a third of Europeans (34%, -1 percentage point since autumn 2014) and a
negative feeling for 56% of them (-1). Sweden stands out as being the only country
where a large majority of the population take a positive view of the immigration of
people from outside the EU (66% for the total ‘positive’ vs. 31%); though more limited,
majorities of respondents also feel positive in Romania, Spain, Croatia and Ireland.

In all other countries, the immigration of people from outside the European Union evokes a
negative feeling, most strikingly in the Czech Republic (81%), Latvia (78%), Greece
(78%) and Slovakia (77%). Compared with autumn 2014, negative views have increased
in 15 countries, particularly in Lithuania (70%, +9) and Poland (53%, +9). Conversely,
they have decreased in 12 Member States and are unchanged in France.
STANDARD EUROBAROMETER 83 FIRST RESULTS – SPRING 2015


6. SUPPORT FOR A COMMON EUROPEAN POLICY ON MIGRATION
Close to three-quarters of Europeans say they are in favour of “a common
European policy on migration” (73%, +2 percentage points since autumn 2014). A
fifth are “against” (20%, unchanged), while 7% of respondents answer that they “don’t
know” (-2).

Support for “a common European policy on migration” is shared by a majority of
respondents in all 28 Member States (as in autumn 2014). It is more widespread in
the Netherlands (85%), Germany (84%), Malta (84%), Lithuania (82%), Luxembourg
(82%) and Spain (81%), than in the Czech Republic (52%), Estonia (53%), Finland
(57%) and Austria (58%). In terms of evolutions, support for “a common European
policy on migration” has risen in 12 countries, most strikingly in Germany (84%, +9
percentage points), Sweden (77%, +8) and Croatia (71%, +7). Conversely, it has lost
ground in 13 Member States, led by Estonia (53%, -11) and the Czech Republic (52%,
-7). Support for “a common European policy on migration” is unchanged in Luxembourg
(82%), Cyprus (75%) and Italy (73%).

STANDARD EUROBAROMETER 83 FIRST RESULTS – SPRING 2015

38
CONCLUSION
After gaining ground spectacularly, immigration is now seen as the most important
issue facing the EU, overtaking the economic themes that have led the hierarchy of
main concerns since this question was first asked in autumn 2010 (EB74). The most
important issue for Europeans overall, immigration is in first position in 20 Member
States. Concerns over terrorism have also increased sharply. Meanwhile, concern
about economic themes has continued its downward trend.

Indicators of support for the EU have continued to strengthen: more Europeans have a
positive image of the EU than neutral or negative.

Trust in the EU has also gained ground, while distrust has dropped below 50% for
the first time since spring 2011 (EB75).

Optimism for the future of the EU has continued its upward trend: 58% of Europeans
say they are optimistic about the future of the EU.

Though still a minority, the proportion of Europeans who feel that their voice
counts in the EU has increased, while exactly half Europeans disagree, the lowest
level since this question was first asked. Since the 2014 European elections, the
proportion of citizens who feel that their voice counts has remained at a high level.
Perceptions of the economy have improved: close to four in ten Europeans believe their
national economic situation is ‘good’, while less than six in ten consider that it is ‘bad’.

Despite this improvement, differences between Member States remain wide.
Almost half of Europeans (48%) say that the impact of the crisis on the job market
has already reached its peak, more than at any time since the question was first
asked in early 2009.

Expectations for economic development over the next 12 months have risen, and
optimists outnumber pessimists regarding the economic situation at both national
and European levels. The economic optimism index for the national economy is the
highest measured since spring 2004 (EB61).

Support for the euro has continued the upward trend that has been on-going since
autumn 2013 (EB80). A large majority of Europeans are in favour of the single currency
and this opinion is shared by majorities of respondents in 21 Member States.

More than two-thirds of Europeans feel they are citizens of the EU. This is the
first time that this proportion has reached such a high level. A similar proportion would
like to know more about their rights as citizens of the EU. Majorities of respondents feel
they are citizens of the EU in 27 Member States, and in the remaining country, the
population is evenly divided.

STANDARD EUROBAROMETER 83 FIRST RESULTS – SPRING 2015
39
People's perceptions of the most positive results of the EU is almost unchanged
since autumn 2014: the free movement of people, goods and services within the
EU, in first place, and peace among the Member States of the EU, second, continue
to be cited by more than half of Europeans. The euro is mentioned by close to a quarter
of Europeans.

In terms of political priorities of the European Union, close to six Europeans in ten agree
that public money should be used to stimulate private sector investment at EU
level. This remains the majority view in 27 countries.

Close to half Europeans think that the objective of bringing industry’s
contribution to the economy to 20% of GDP by 2020 is “about right”; this is the
opinion of a majority of respondents in 27 Member States.

A large majority of Europeans are in favour of a common energy policy among EU
Member States, and more than half support a free trade and investment
agreement between the European Union and the United States, though in both
cases support has declined slightly since autumn 2014.

The immigration of people from other EU Member States evokes a positive feeling
for more than half of Europeans, whereas the opposite is true in the case of
immigration of people from outside the EU. Overall, a common European policy on
migration is supported by close to three-quarters of Europeans, rising slightly since
autumn 2014.
 
hahahahah all the european who felt the US citizens were over reacting to the mexican immigration into the US will now get a dose of it.

there will be 4000 immigrant people at a time wrecking ships on the coast of scotland, ireland, wales, norway, denmark. there is big money in smuggling them and as long as the syrians have money to pay they will arrive on your shores no matter what you say.

there is no way to send them home and too many natives with good hearts who would claim that they need to be integrated into mainstream society, at whatever cost to the population who did not want them to begin with. that is the wonderful thing about guvments, they do what they want no matter what the people say.

so expect there to be a mosque in your neighborhood and gangs of alienated boys riding around at night with masks over their faces from now until all of the native inhabitants have been decapitated. there is no way back.

maybe you could talk greece into using some of the hundreds of square miles of useless real estate to house them in camps to keep them out of europe. that would compensate for the loss of the $360 billion loaned to them. europe can pay greece the cost to house and feed them. it would create many low skill jobs for the greeks too. something they could handle since they will not make it to catch up with the rest of the industrialized world.
 
It's a completely different situation entirely. Mexicans are culturally very similar to Americans and they have pretty much the same religion. You won't find Mexicans blowing up buildings in the US and killing people as part of a Holy War. Neither will you find them trying to turn America into an Islamic State.

The narcotics problem in the US can be solved almost instantly by legalising drugs and regulating the industry. Salary deflation also can be quickly countered by bringing in a minimum wage. Easy fixes that only require political will or a nationwide referendum.

Most of those issues are not applicable to Europe where every nation has their own minimum wage and where some countries have even decriminalised and legalised drugs. And the immigrant culture and their religion is completely different to largely secular Europeans.

Of course there is always a way back and tides can turn very quickly. Already the naive do-gooders are in the minority in virtually every European country bar Sweden and even that is changing over there. Once the silent majority realise their numbers that effect will snowball and the politicians will wake up.

Both the UK and Ireland have also got extra options that continental Europe does not - namely both countries are islands that can chose to leave the EU if things get very bad and cut off immigrant ties very easily if they chose to do so.

Edit: Apparently, 22 out of 28 member states have minimum wages.
 
The security services seem to be doing a good job of foiling domestic terrorist plots, but it's only a matter of time before one gets through. ISIS is probably a greater threat than the Taliban was in this regard. It's hard to guard against attackers who have no regard for their own lives.

Joseph, the idea of establish sovereign states for the all the peoples of the middle-east sounds dangerously like nation-building - another social taboo that cannot be discussed. The collective guilt of past imperialism means it's racist to suggest interference in other countries can ever be anything other than completely oppressive and exploitative. Never mind the state of most African countries since decolonisation.
 
you seem to think you can stop them from making it all the way into europe. we have a huge wall and fence on the mexican border and they still come across like it was going to mcdonalds on foot.

but all this news is being shown in syria and iraq and the refugee camps in jordan and turkey so all those people are now piling all their remaining possessions into bundles and are starting to head your way.

i bet there are over 1 million immigrants in europe within a year. doesn't matter how many redneck skinheads you send against them. they will be there by christmas.
 
Punx0r said:
The security services seem to be doing a good job of foiling domestic terrorist plots, but it's only a matter of time before one gets through. ISIS is probably a greater threat than the Taliban was in this regard. It's hard to guard against attackers who have no regard for their own lives.

Joseph, the idea of establish sovereign states for the all the peoples of the middle-east sounds dangerously like nation-building - another social taboo that cannot be discussed. The collective guilt of past imperialism means it's racist to suggest interference in other countries can ever be anything other than completely oppressive and exploitative. Never mind the state of most African countries since decolonisation.

My locus of identity has always been internal. :mrgreen: It's the most obvious solution to the problem. We have two main warring sects - Sunnis and Shiite (with sub-sects) and then when have the Kurds who have been appallingly mistreated by Iraq and Turkey among others but especially by Turkey as of late. Simplistically, the reason for the failure of the previous redrawing of boundaries in 1948 appears to be not addressing natural ethnic divides and forcing people with disparate identities into the same nation a la Yugoslavia.

The reality, despite what people may wish was different, is that nationality and culture matters deeply. We love to accentuate tiny differences between people (Freud's Narcissism of Small Differences - one of the few things he was actually right about). Never mind nations, we do it with neighbouring provinces, counties and even towns in Ireland - and every other country in Europe does the same thing. Most of us can even discern tiny variations in dialect and accent even though the people only live a few kilometres away. (For the record Hollywood, there is no such thing as an Irish accent :x and that applies to all of Europe.)

Africa has always been a basket case for a variety of reasons. Geographically, most of the continent has been dealt a terrible hand. It has very few navigable rivers. Photosynthesis isn't as efficient as in other regions and then the tsetse fly renders animals lethargic. Which explains why they have developed at a much slower pace that the rest of the world. Its geography has contributed to the cultural and institutional holdovers.

No one pays tax and many countries are riddled with corruption - therefore nations have little infrastructure and virtually no educational structures.

Nigeria appears to be a beacon of hope - they seem to have elected a proper politician as leader and they are a very rich country even by western world standards - so maybe the tide will turn for the continent if Nigeria leads the way. South Africa on the other hand looks to be going downhill quickly - load shedding and tribal ANC corruption is crippling the country.

Alain de Botton's video appears to be quite good.

[youtube]9-4V3HR696k[/youtube]

If Europe doesn't do something positive to address the situation the right-wingers will do it for them and most of us won't like the consequences. UKIP and Front Nationale (the largest party in France according to the last European election) will resolve it and then wreck carnage.

Europe's historical default state has been internecine conflict. That's only two to three generations ago. We could easily regress. Taking the history of France, for example, they have a very bloody past - literally in their case too. It's only around 80 years ago that the guillotine was last used. That's a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. We're also talking about a nation that has no qualms about striking at the drop of hat and whose farmers have no problem burning live animals to make a point.

Those are some of the choices that await and a potential pessimistic future.
 
we got you beat. i know there were public lynchings of black people in mississippi where i was born in my lifetime. the cops have been doing it all along and only recently has it made it to the pubic space.

remember there are already large populations of arab and pakistani men in britain who will form the army to fight the skinheads and black shirts. the arab, syrian, and iraqi refugees will get to britain. you cannot keep them out. they even walk through the chunnel to get to britain.
 
dnmun said:
you seem to think you can stop them from making it all the way into europe. we have a huge wall and fence on the mexican border and they still come across like it was going to mcdonalds on foot.

but all this news is being shown in syria and iraq and the refugee camps in jordan and turkey so all those people are now piling all their remaining possessions into bundles and are starting to head your way.

i bet there are over 1 million immigrants in europe within a year. doesn't matter how many redneck skinheads you send against them. they will be there by christmas.

You seem to think the two situations are the same they are not.

For one there is a large and at times quite dangerous sea between North Africa and Europe and then there is the large country of Turkey acting as the bridge between Europe and Asia. It costs migrants a lot of money to set foot in Europe. Those undertakings aren't free. Deportations will set them back an awful lot financially.

In Mexico it costs nothing to cross into America you can essentially walk across or even swim across. Where there is an actual fence - bolt cutters, a ladder or a cordless angle grinder can all be bought cheaply. Getting to Europe on the other hand costs thousands and isn't being undertaken by the poor.
 
poor guy. now you will be awakened every morning by the mullahs chanting prayers into the microphone from the maximum volume PA system they have on top of the minaret. calling you to prayer every morning. you will love it.

we get to listen to all the mexican language radio stations singing the mexican music. i prefer the mexican music to the call to prayers from the mosque. it will be in your town. you will have huge muslim populations screaming at you for being racist and excluding them. hahahaha
 
dnmun said:
we got you beat. i know there were public lynchings of black people in mississippi where i was born in my lifetime. the cops have been doing it all along and only recently has it made it to the pubic space.

remember there are already large populations of arab and pakistani men in britain who will form the army to fight the skinheads and black shirts. the arab, syrian, and iraqi refugees will get to britain. you cannot keep them out. they even walk through the chunnel to get to britain.

Okay, I see this is another topic where you're being rigidly dogmatic irrespective of facts or logic.

For the little it is worth... There is actually an army patrolling Calais and despite thousands being camped (who should all be deported by France to be fair) none have got through yet.
 
where do you deport them to? nobody will take them. they have rights under international law established by the UN and they cannot be returned to any place where they would be at risk. they are your problem in europe now. and britain too. and ireland, and wales, and scotland. they will be under every bush and behind every garden wall. muslims everywhere.
 
dnmun said:
where do you deport them to? nobody will take them. they have rights under international law established by the UN and they cannot be returned to any place where they would be at risk. they are your problem in europe now. and britain too. and ireland, and wales, and scotland. they will be under every bush and behind every garden wall. muslims everywhere.

Refugees and asylum seekers have rights. Economic migrants have none. Bring your hypothesise forward a few years - if you think far right parties will give a shit about human rights you've got to be mental. What is the UN going to do about it? They'll speak some harsh words and watch on helplessly like they have always done with nearly every human rights violation.

Back to the present day, if the situation worsens Europe could just employ the Australian solution and bring all asylum seekers to a facility outside Europe - either Turkey or Morocco would probably be well-suited geographically. There the genuine cases could be separated from economic migrants. No violation of human rights and Europe's immediate problem is solved without the breakup of the EU.

Following that process - Europe would be left with several choices. They could grant all asylum seekers protracted citizenship, a portion of them citizenship or wait until the wars stop and repatriate them back to their original countries.

Or if we allow the status quo to continue Europe will eventually return to the cultural dark ages and become a collection of Islamic states. Or much more likely the break-up of the EU and the rise of far right will be back just like the bad old days.
 
The radical Islam and migrant crisis all strengthens the case for the UK leaving the EU. I think it's becoming more likely (and justifiable). Without the lure of the welfare state there's little motivation for these economic migrants to travel so far north as to reach the UK. Britain and Ireland do enjoy their own moat :)

I suspect some direct intervention in the Middle East is inevitable to tackle ISIS and generally stabilise the region. Defence of the realm starts beyond its borders. Hopefully it's not too late and the threat is already here.
 
Punx0r said:
The radical Islam and migrant crisis all strengthens the case for the UK leaving the EU. I think it's becoming more likely (and justifiable). Without the lure of the welfare state there's little motivation for these economic migrants to travel so far north as to reach the UK. Britain and Ireland do enjoy their own moat :)

I suspect some direct intervention in the Middle East is inevitable to tackle ISIS and generally stabilise the region. Defence of the realm starts beyond its borders. Hopefully it's not too late and the threat is already here.

I now suspect that Ireland would follow suit if Brexit occurred. The UK is our largest trading partner and export market. Much of our GNP and GDP comes from trade with the Anglo world and outside of the EU. If people start seeing more terrorists murdering people in Europe, Germany continuing to do its own thing against EU rules and the EU failing to address the problems, Ireland would pull up its bridge as well. The risk/reward meter will swing too far into the disadvantageous side.

With the UK out there will be no country powerful enough to challenge German stupidity.

The last few months have been an eye-opening experience. I would have never said or thought any of this a year ago. :shock:
 
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