30 mile (each way) rail trail commute?

[WOODENBOATJIM]

Hey guys

New guy here! I've been involved in biking for a while, though less of late. In college (mechanical engineering), I took part in the ASME Human powered vehicle design challenge out in Madison, and learned quite a bit about bikes (and as the "prototype guy" on the team spent many hours in the weld shop putting frames together, and then breaking them) and put quite a few miles on several recumbents, both student built and commercial.

Now, I'm contemplating the feasibility of replacing some of my car commuting with a commute by E-Bike. As it so happens, there is a rail trail that goes pretty nearly from my house to my office, total distance of about 30 miles each way. Being a rail trail this is quite level, and mostly a packed surface with some small paved portions. Ideally, I would like to be able to hold an average speed of perhaps 25 MPH, and I would expect to be doing moderately intense pedaling for the duration. I have a run of the mill Schwinn hybrid bike I would convert, and to keep it legal would plan to use a 500w motor (undecided on drive type) on 48v. I would expect to need a 20ah pack to give myself the required range with wiggle room, and anticipating charging at home and at the office.

I'm a reasonably fit (but gradually decreasingly so!) 30 year old guy at around 175 lb, I don't want to just sit and ride, I want the exercise too, I realize 500w is probably not enough to hold the speed I'd like without me doing my part as well. I'm not looking to peel away from stops, climb mountains or rocket along, I just want to basically turn what would be too long of a commute under my own power (gotta get home to the wife & kids!) into something doable a couple days of week.

I'm curious if anybody has experience with a longer distance commute such as this, or riding on converted rail trails? It seems to me this is probably a doable proposition, if I do my part right and spec out the correct components. I'm interested to hear from anyone who'd tried something like this before, I'm not to the point of getting into particulars of motors & controllers yet but evaluating the general idea.

 

[wesnewell]

At 25 mph you won't be able to help a bit without some serious gearing changes. You'll need about 30wh per mile at 25 mph on level ground, so that would equate to a 900wh battery pack for one way on a standard bike. A 48V 1000W kit doesn't cost any or much more than a 500W kit, and will get you the speed you want on a 48V battery pack.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302

 

[ccmdr]

Hi Woodenboatjim, welcome to the forum .

Your setup sounds perfectly doable, although because of the long commute your likely to heat up the motor quickly if your maxing a 500W hub @ 25 mph its going to be the top end that hub could handle for 'e'longated periods. I'd go for the slightly larger hub, for an hour plus journey maybe you could go for a 750W-1500W.

My 28 mile one way on road tyres 700c took around 45-50 mins at 28-30 mph with moderate pedal assist and the 48v30ah LiFeP0 pack would feel noticably slower towards the end and the HS3540 would be too hot to touch. This is in a flat county on solid roads too, running 1440W. I'd imagine on a packed surface you'd loose more traction and use more Wh per mile so a 30ah maybe required even for the lower speed .

Also, think comfort. After two weeks of rigid front forks my wrists had enough and I had to get front suspension. Once my wrists stopped aching (I do 200+ miles on a CBR1000RR with no wrist ache btw! ) my arse and back would ache badly after 20+ miles. Large gel seat sorted it. |Depends on how hard packed your trail is. Had been on typical british country roads which are either badly 'surface finished' or in the stage of chronic washboard effect :lol:.

Anyways, whatever you choose show us, it's always interesting to see someone build and their different idea's

 

[WOODENBOATJIM]

Thanks for the responses!

I should have mentioned - I would far prefer to use a bigger motor (750 or 1000w), the main reason I'd thought of using 500w is because of the Maryland (my commute would be from York Pennsylvania down to northern Baltimore) state regulations pertaining to E-Bikes (a blanket 500w/20mph without pedaling). Of course, as long as I'm not acting like a hooligan, maybe that isn't an issue. I'd just rather not have to explain to mr. policeman that despite the 750w label on the motor its really only 500w because of the battery & controller feeding it etc. Irritatingly, the PA portion of my ride, a 750w motor is perfectly legal. Definitely interested to hear how others have dealt with such restrictions (big bold 500w sticker?).

Excellent point about comfort. The bike I'd intend to convert is reasonably comfortable, with front suspension and pretty decent seat. I'll take some getting used to though no doubt, and I'll be easing into it. I can also start off driving half the commute and biking half.

Also a very good point about gearing. Gearing changes shouldn't be a problem if that speed tops my cadence out, I'm pretty decently tooled up in my little garage shop to do this kind of thing.

Again thanks for the "real world" experience info, as you know there's often a big difference with how things work on paper, and in real life.

-Jim

 

[dogman dan]

60 miles a day, plus work. You must be in your thirties to even consider it. Of course, your work may not be as physical as mine was, construction carpentry.

The main thing is the time. a 48v 20 ah battery can be big enough for thirty miles at 20 mph, which might be your limit on the trail if you share it with a lot of morning strollers walking 3 abreast blocking the trail. And at about 20 mph, you are looking at 3 or more hours of time out of every day.

But maybe do it two times a week, that would give you a nice workout, without eating up 15-20 hours a week of your time. In savings, you'd be putting about 20-30 dollars a day in your pocket vs driving, so even two days a week would pay for the bike easy. Your car lasting longer is the main savings, not gas.

FWIW, I did a 30 mile round trip for 5 years, by ebike. With lots of stops and road crossings, I spent almost 2 hours on the road for the 30 miles. I was also riding mostly a bike trail that required me to slow down some, but the real hold up was the ride home, 100% uphill was slower.

 

[WOODENBOATJIM]

I sit at a desk all day (mechanical engineer) so I could use the exercise! I'll turn 30 in May.

Sounds like I need to adjust my expectations a bit. I could probably swallow a 20mph average, that would bump the time up to 1.5 hours each way, which wouldn't end the world. As it is, with traffic the way it is, it sometimes takes the better part of an hour to drive (rarely less than 45 minutes) so really the extra impact is probably only an extra hour or hour and a half. I'm not running for the hills yet. Seems like a reasonable goal to start with, and then I can optimize from there. I do also have the option of riding a pretty decent (for biking I mean) road with plenty of shoulder for about half of the trip, which would actually be very slightly shorter to boot.

Absolutely correct about keeping mileage off the car. Even just once a week takes off 20% of the yearly wear and tear on it, and that to me justifies the cost. Mainly I need to convince the missus that this is a good idea now.

Seems to me at this kind of mileage, I'm basically buying a battery and building the rest of the bike around it, at least in terms of the cost.

 

[wesnewell]

If you wait for a sale at HK, you can get rc lipo for 20 cents a wh, so $200 for 1000wh. Total cost of a 48V 1000W kit and 1000wh battery would be around $400. Then you need charging equipment for home and office, or use a bms and a couple low wattage chargers, since you don't need fast charging, so another $100. Staying with 12s lipo will get you ~28 mph top speed, but you can run it at that speed continuously without over heating the motor.

 

[WOODENBOATJIM]

That sounds like a pretty appealing build recipe, I'll look into that, thanks!

 

[ColinB]

Hi Jim,
My first thought is about your average speed. Is 25 mph average realistic for your rail trail? (On my local un-paved trail, it is not.)

I have a 12 mile commute, each way, on my local roads. I manage to average about 18mph, cruise at 24mph, and have short peaks above 27mph. On a bicycle, I find around 24mph is fast enough, and am not really looking for more speed. (Because of traffic, road conditions, visibility, etc.) I have a recumbent: 2" tires, V-brakes, no suspension. To go faster, I'd upgrade to a bike with suspension and/or larger tires, and better brakes.

My recommendations: test ride your trail, and see how fast you really want to travel on it. You will have to cruise faster than your target average speed. Perhaps consider building up more of a downhill style bike, so you can fit 3" (or larger) tires, full suspension, and really good brakes. Or a velomobile could be a good choice for high speeds and efficiency. Look for a way to fit fenders - around here, wet roads and trails == bike and chain coated in sand by the end of each trip. Sigh. More maintenance.

Now that you've decided on the type of bike, and how fast you will actually go, see what type of wh/mile others are getting, and plan your battery accordingly.

Easy, right? lol.

Colin

 

[dogman dan]

One thing I forgot to mention,, It's not out of the question to drive part of it every day. Good sturdy hitch mount rack on the car, and you can cut the ride to 40 miles a day, which is very much doable, and can allow a higher speed run when you do have the trail to yourself, without making the battery more than 48v 20 ah.

I did this a lot myself. My first summer of commute I had a poor motor choice that could not do the long climb to my house. So I drove to the valley, 6 miles from home, and did an easier 9 mile one way run. Later I improved my bike, and started doing the 15 mile trip three days a week.

30 miles is really a long one way commute, but not out of the question to do a couple days a week. But it might be a better choice to do 15 or 20 miles more days a week. Either way, the goal is the same, cut driving by 100 miles a week or more, and it puts a cool 50 bucks a week into your long term budget.

To pound out that kind of miles day in day out, you do not want the cheapest 1000w kit out there. You need a well built wheel. Others will scoff my advice, because I work for one of the high price companies out there that sell them. What can I say? The cheap kits I started with are gone, but 7 years later I still have the ones I put the most miles on, in working condition.

 

[WOODENBOATJIM]

If I'm going to do it, I want to do it right. The cost savings is real, so I can justify getting the "right" parts, I don't plan on just grabbing the cheapest thing out there. That means a good battery, and reliable running gear & electronics.

The partial commute idea is a good one and I definitely would start off doing just that, if only for the sake of my rear end! Less risk that way too while working the bugs out of the build, I'd hate to be stuck 25 miles away with pedal power only from some stupid controller malfunction...

I really appreciate all the input guys, its very helpful.

 

[1JohnFoster]

Ooo! You have a dream commute!

A nice thing about rail lines is there are no hills. And if you don't have too many level crossings to stop for you don't need much low end motor or pedal torque and/or a heavier rig is OK.

Starting with a basic bike, solid simple build with reliable parts and partial commute is a good plan.

But if it was me, I'd be sketching up another stitch & glue velomobile. A long wheelbase two wheel "streamliner" with dual suspension. Heads-out style to enjoy the ride.
It sounds like you have a lot of skills ... could you sell it to your wife as a Daddy-kid project? (I tried that one for years.)

Are the rails still there? How wide is the trail, how many critters, dogs or kids might jump out at you? That kind of limits your speed.
Would you be OK with a long wheelbase and slow dodge response?
Lower pressure wider tires and suspension give you quicker stop times on a loose undulating trail, but increases your wh/mile.

 

[MadRhino]

I didn't see any mention about charging facilities at work. 30 miles requires a big battery already, if you like speeding part of it at least. For 60 miles you really need to build around the battery, unless you are willing to sweat.

My preference would be for speed, especially on a trail that is mostly fine and flat. It is liklely that you will soon want better speed, so build with easy upgrade in mind. Full suspension is a must for off road riding, if you build a hard ride you will soon want to do another one. Commuting off road also requires to build with weather in mind, big mud guards and waterproofing are to be planned from the start.

 

[Shoestring]

Dear MR woodenboatjim, I'd like you to reconsider your plan to blow down the Heritage Rail Trail county park and the Torry C Brown trail on your way to work. The rail trail in Pa is under the jurisdiction of the York County Park system and there is no love for ebikers at this time. An "unofficial" speed limit of 15mph is the standard of enforcement at this time. There is no way you can maintain that speed climbing the 2% grade for 7 miles on each side of New Freedom, passing through the bourough of Glen Rock ,Railroad, and New Freedom with at grade road crossings without drawling a lot of attention, the bad kind. Also for your info, the fine for riding on the trail 30 minutes before sunrise or 30 minutes after is $600.00 and is enforced. You may not know it but the "park" is patrolled early and late by park staff on a susuzi 200 dual sport. After 10 yrs of membership in the parks bike club and 5 yrs of leading group rides, I find myself and ebike outcast reconnecting with local ebikers and flying under the radar with other trail users. By no means am I suggesting you not ride an ebike, rather slow down, be polite, do not draw unwanted attention and ruin it for all of us. The park has final say on who rides and who doesn't.

 

[ScooterMan101]

woodenboatjim,

I will list some real world experience of over 35 years of riding experience , not including my youth for another 15 + years. So that you can get an idea what you are trying to do, and how it would/would not work.

First with over 35 years of riding on the dirt, in at least 10 different states here in the U.S. and every kind of trail you can think of, then add to that , Australia .

Now I ride the road. so I will compare both in regards to what you want to do.

First 25 or more mph is doable on the road, as long as you have a very good bike that was designed for higher speed than usual riding.

However Riding that speed on the dirt 25mph , for any length of distance, will end up in crashes, notice I did not say a crash, I said crashes .
Now I have lived in the real mountains in California, and Colorado, and while some people bomb down hill, and it is fun, I have done it plenty of times myself ... it should only done on a recreational basis for very good reasons .

Trying to commute 30 miles on the dirt, would only last a short while.

Then add to that , that 25 mph will not be your average speed, so then you would be riding much faster than 25 mph , to have the 25 mph average you want.

Then add to that , how your body will feel after 30 miles ( even if you think it is smooth, it is still not like a paved road in regards to how much more it will beat up your body ).

Then , on my bike with 12 rear smallest cog, and 50 tooth largest outer chainring, the speed of the bike, above 24 mph , is more than my legs can contribute any useful amount of assistance,
the cadence is too fast , others here on E.S. have said they have the same results,

Then take into consideration that any other trail users will be real pissed off if you go over 15 mph, even near that speed for those hikers that do not like bikes already.

So the Best thing to do , is to drive part way, ( as long as you have a safe place to leave your car each workday ) then bike part of the way (on the road would be faster ), you will still be saving gas, oil, brakes, tires, etc on the car, you can also tell your insurance company you drive less so as to get lower insurance rates, your body will not be so beat up that you would give up after spending all that money on doing a decent conversion on your bike.

If you do ride the trails, slow down, there are people that want to be able to ride an electric bike on the trails, in the future, and many hikers are looking for any excuse to kick you and all of us off the trails.
Keep your speed up only on the Road, like the Lycra Clad , Healthy Roadies,
and also fast speeds only on designated down hill runs at ski resorts and other such MTB areas.

You really do want to do under 15mph , more like 12 mph or less on the trails, even if it was not a law for many reasons.

 

[dogman dan]

Hmm, a few 600 buck fines would sure put a crimp on the savings vs driving.

Sounds to me more and more like a combined car bike commute, finding a place to street ride from with a safer route might be the best approach here. 15 miles is not bad if the route is good, and takes only about 700wh to do at 25 mph. On the street, 25 mph is not generally something a cop gives a shit about.

But park cops, hoo boy, nothing better to do than enforce every little rule.

 

[Lurkin]

I commute 80 km per day (~50 miles) with a BBS01 250w mid drive unit @ ~25 - 30 km/h (18mph). I do this on shared paths/ bike trails. I am not too sure what a converted rail trail is - do you have pictures?

The issue I face is that the BMS for the pack is set to charge at a max of 3a.

This is the biggest drawback to having such a long commute, because if I work late, then commute, there's not enough time to charge the pack in full before going to sleep, which means running range roulette on the way to work the next day. This is pretty easy to avoid - higher current BMS and charge socket and cells capable of being charged faster.

You also need to think about how awake you are in the friday morning of your commute. I'm usually still half asleep when I roll out the garage :lol: but using less power/travelling at a lower speed means I still have plenty of time to correct for brain farts.

I would be looking at a geared hub motor, or better still, BBS02 unit. They are both very efficient, which means you will be able to minimise your pack size. Both come with the disadvantages of greater complexity and for the BBS02, drivetrain wear. BBS02 kits are very, very newbie friendly - it includes the controller built into the middrive, a loom which you can only plug the right things into the right place etc. Have a look at the endless-sphere mid drive section of the wiki if you want to know more, I have written the summary there, summarising many of the common issues relating to these units. I have a thread on here with regard to my currrent commute bike if you are curious about issues arising etc.

Alternatively, the Bafang BPM 500w geared hubs are well regarded on here for a good affordable option which affordable replacement planetary gearing. Have a search on the forum - I have not used one of these, but I have been considering it for my second ebike build. MAC geared motors are also well regarded - but are more expensive.

Rather than drive, are there trains which could be used to travel part of your commute? Personally, I hate this idea. I've done it before, not a fan of half measures nor maintaining two transport methods.

Obviously the simplest answer is move closer to your job...

 

[brucemetras]

I commute 80 km per day (~50 miles) with a BBS01 250w mid drive unit @ ~25 - 30 km/h (18mph). I do this on shared paths/ bike trails.

Out of curiosity, what's your total km on the BBS01 that you use? what kind of issues?

I'm doing 60km a couple of days a week and 30km most other days with a BBS02 road bike setup .. usually 30 to 35km/h average and 10 to 13 w/h per mile with a 12ah 52v battery.. right now, I'm in the ether, how long can I expect this to last without motor/electronic issues assuming I don't beat on it?

 

[Lurkin]

Bearing in mind, mine is the BBS01 250w unit, not BBS02.

The first unit developed noises after ~3,500 kms. The noises pertained to the typical and dreaded o-ring destruction on the motor shaft. Replacing this item and all the greases did not fix the noise, it just changed the note of it. This unit was returned to Bafang in China under warranty.

I think it was replaced in full and the replacement has since done ~5,500kms. It developed similar noise after 3,500 kms, but I've decided to ignore it because I rely on it and it took too long to get a replacement last time/ I'm building a second commute bike in the meantime.

I'll be making a more comprehensive update in the thread about that bike in the next couple of days.

Again, reading the wiki about these units will tell you the installation requirements, general information and common issues with these units.

 

[2old]

Probably have only about 500 miles on my BBS02, and since it's not used for commuting, won't exhaust it for awhile. Seems like if I needed a commuter, BionX with a three year warranty on the entire kit might be my choice even though it's rather expensive (might start a range war here).

 

[Lurkin]

Whether they are expensive is a function of how far it will go, how likely it is to have issues and how likely it is they will honor the warranty.

Durability is the exact reason I am moving away from the 250w tinker toy stuff, rather than bigger power motors for more torque/speed. It seems the trick is to overbuild as much as possible (within reason) to increase reliability.