45% efficient F1 ICE engine ?

Hillhater said:
They are quite clear that the bulk of the gains is from the MGU-H. ( motor/generator unit- heat recovery) which uses a turbine in the exhaust to drive a generator providing up to 120 kW's, intermittently , which is stored in a battery, and then reused to drive the same unit when needed to produce boost for higher ICE power.
And no, they dont include any initial charge in the battery !
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N_Iy-GY19DE/UdVwCEPrPMI/AAAAAAAAJJ4/vwBpItZPBaQ/s640/MMarelli+Motorsport+F1+2014+ERS_Energy+Recovery+System.jpg
MMarelli+Motorsport+F1+2014+ERS_Energy+Recovery+System.jpg
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What is the thingy with the red disk on the right hand side of the photo?


GONZ
 
The compressor. The red disc is just a plastic pipe cap to prevent ingress of foreign objects before fitment.
 
speedmd said:
Is that the section next to the black (looks like carbon)fan housing? Boiling coolant to run a small steam turbine. Interesting. Scrubs heat effectively as well as generates electricity. If we keep this up we will put a man on the moon some day. :D
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I'd guess that plenum is for preventing impeller heat from reaching the electric motor. Shaft heat isn't as much of a problem for the compressor in a conventional setup as it might be for the electric motor.

Another way to think of this arrangement is that its a hybrid turbocharger/supercharger. Seems like it would be a great way to help control emissions on a diesel, as well as increasing performance across the RPM range.
 
gogo said:
speedmd said:
Is that the section next to the black (looks like carbon)fan housing? Boiling coolant to run a small steam turbine. Interesting. Scrubs heat effectively as well as generates electricity. If we keep this up we will put a man on the moon some day. :D
Click to expand...

I'd guess that plenum is for preventing impeller heat from reaching the electric motor. Shaft heat isn't as much of a problem for the compressor in a conventional setup as it might be for the electric motor.

Another way to think of this arrangement is that its a hybrid turbocharger/supercharger. Seems like it would be a great way to help control emissions on a diesel, as well as increasing performance across the RPM range.
Click to expand...

It would be great if we saw what got plumbed into the ports on the smaller motor generator section. It does look like it would be cooling lines, but anything is possible with this group of tinkerers. A steam turbine should have a larger exit port. With no rule limits on the heat side of the generation system, I can see that this is rich for development of harvesting previously wasted energy.
 
Why do you think the photo MGU suggest anything to do with steam? AFAIK steam-based energy recovery on a vehicle has never been implemented because it is heavy, bulky and inefficient.

The ports you're looking at in the core (next to the turbine) will be for oil feed and drain to cool and lubricate the shaft bearing inside. Most turbos nowadays include a water jacket, with another two connections for feed/return to help cool the turbo after engine-shutdown, but I don't know if an F1 car would employ this as it's extra weight for what's possibly and irrelevant benefit.
 
Every exhaust turbo is a heat energy recovery system.
These are just highly developed to drive either/or the MGU or the compressor directly.
No steam
No secret sauce
Just very sophisticated controls and high energy electrical systems and batteries.
The real secrets are in the control programmes to optimise the generation, and reuse or the electrical power.
 
speedmd said:
"Heat recovery", is a misnomer if all they are using is the exhaust pressure to drive a turbine. It would work regardless of the temperature.
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There is less energy escaping the system in the form of heat out the tailpipe. That heat, instead, causes useful gas pressure upon the exhaust impeller.
 
Totally makes sense. Soon every car will have a turbo generator. [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
 
Dauntless said:
speedmd said:
Grew up on a farm also. :lol:
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Dang, about 3 weeks now I've been picturing these farm kids around the campfire telling scary thermodynamics stories.
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Yep! We learned young how to tell horse shit from bull shit and that the bull shit contains significantly more thermal energy and was much more likely to burn the eyes when you plant your face in it! :oops:
 
They claim 45% efficiency and 50% with energy recovery systems
Toyota Prius engine claim 40% thermal efficiency.

Seem plausible to me. this is a 12.5% improvment, it's a lot but not impossible.
also it's within Otto cycle theorical max thermal efficiency.

Mercedes certainly wont substanciate how it's done. Especially when racing F1

Beleive it or not it's up to you, I think that it's not much of a concern for Mercedes what we think about this.
 
Toyota's claim when tested independently fell far short of that lofty number. So have many others with ICE high efficiency claims over the years. It is just lipstick on a pig! :lol: The new turbos running near 2000 degrees F certainly recover more energy, but it is a technology that has well passed it's welcome and time. The complexity of the cars now is a joke! Millions of little air diverters sticking out all over the body work, 8 speeds, 4 allowed energy recovery systems, DRS... etc...etc. Whats next, active suspension and auto tranny's again (maybe with 10 speeds) ? Time has come for open class electric' to be allowed to attempt to qualify for the same grid spots and get rid of all that crap all over and in the cars.
 
Can you post the independent test for the 2016 prius drivetrain ?
Would be interesting to read.
my Insight is over 30% eff

I agree that a fossile burning motor is outdated

Thanks
 
Guys, the reason for the high level of effiecency is due to the burn they are running. The main chamber is lean as hell. The gas engines are running super lean, and boosted hard to prevent detonation they have a rich prechamber that ignites the main cylinder almost at the same time creating a very nice flat pressure curve. Couple this with the hybrid system and you can see why these efficiencys are possible.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05...nes-result-in-unprecedented-efficiency-gains/

Having done research on a lean burning CNG engine with turbocharging, there is nothing better then just applying boost for you efficiency if you van handle the heat.

Wonder if u lift the limits on the hybrid systems in F1 or WRC (le mans) what those crazy money burning engineers can come up with. I would just have one of those neat petrol/diesel/direct injection units going all out with a generator attached. And a small lithium buffer and four light weight motors. Seeing that a fixed load is the best for an combustion engine this would be the ideal solution, all be it very strange to watch a engine whining no matter what the car does. :twisted:
 
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