5k euro ($6,850 U.D.) German Tilting Trike

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I think this trike deserves its own thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25708#p372181

http://www.fn-trike.de german language only.

I just returned from a test ride.

I´ve had a Trice QNT and a KMX - this trike is something completely different.

The guy is a very passionate and perfectionate retired engineer from Daimler Chrysler. He was constructing the steerable part of the chassis - don´t know the exact description. Everything that has to do with suspension, steering part and so on.

The trike is amazing. There is absolutely now bearing play at all. All joints and bearings on the bike use spherical head bolts and ball bearings only! Most of them manufactured only for the bike or they come from bigger motorbike parts. Very durable materials. Only the most expensive magura brake and derailleur system. One(!) front shock absorber for example 350 EUR. Rohloff hub if wanted. Only the finest materials are used. No change of the steering geometry under full suspension load - which is not realized by any trike manufacturer so fare - and those are not tilting trikes!

The tilt movement and trike response is so precise and smooth that you can steer the trike at any speed above 8mp/h only by smoothly shifting your upper body. It´s really amazing. The faster you go, the more stable the whole system gets. 80km/h absolutely no problem. The suspension in the front works so nice that you just see the front wheels quickly moving up and down on a nasty dirt track while you keep gliding forward with a big grin on your face. The trike weighs only 20 kg.

Price 4900 EURO... Yeah that hurts. Developing costs 60-70K. He agreed that he will never get this money back but he is just passionate about his project and the result is really amazing. Thats german engineering quality in the bike world on a very high level.

That is one beautiful trike...

Does he ship to the US?

Ask him. +49-0174-95 14 611 or: info@fn-trike.de

Production time is presently 3 months.

 

[John in CR]

Since he'll never get his "costs" back then why doesn't he do the world a favor and price it at material costs? I believe it's a fine trike, but if no more than a handful of people ever own or experience one then his effort is wasted AFAIC. It may be that a 4 wheel version of this trike is the perfect LEV, but the world will never know. Why don't the Chinese copy something like this?

 

[docnjoj]

Actually 7500 USD for that trike is not crazy. My LBS has some of those skinny carbon road bikes for around 4 grand and people actually buy them! The engineering on that trike is quite something! Hmmmm........... We would need to get a new front door to get it into the house. Oh well, dream on!
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

I wonder how much benefit the front wheel tilt is. It seems to me that the weight shift from the rear wheel and the rider would compose most of the benefit for cornering? Be a lot simpler to make too!
otherDoc

Edit: Well the front tilt takes some of the side loading off the front wheels but most trikes, including mine really don't have a problem with the upright wheels. The rear tilt with the rider seem to give the most weight shift for cornering.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi ,

I wonder how much benefit the front wheel tilt is. It seems to me that the weight shift from the rear wheel and the rider would compose most of the benefit for cornering? Be a lot simpler to make too!
otherDoc

Edit: Well the front tilt takes some of the side loading off the front wheels but most trikes, including mine really don't have a problem with the upright wheels. The rear tilt with the rider seem to give the most weight shift for cornering.

Alex, who is planning to purchase one, thinks it works well enough to pay almost $7k for one:

The tilt movement and trike response is so precise and smooth that you can steer the trike at any speed above 8mp/h only by smoothly shifting your upper body. It´s really amazing. The faster you go, the more stable the whole system gets. 80km/h absolutely no problem. The suspension in the front works so nice that you just see the front wheels quickly moving up and down on a nasty dirt track while you keep gliding forward with a big grin on your face.

Piaggio MP3 gets good reviews:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/5644/

Piaggio launched the first Vespa model in 1946, creating an iconic presence in the personal transport revolution that evolved in the following decades. Sixty years on, the Italian company has come up with another revolutionary product: the PIAGGIO MP3, a three-wheeler with two independent tilting front wheels that operate in a “carving” motion. The PIAGGIO MP3 provides safety, road grip and stability levels that no two-wheeler can match, with lean angles of 40 degrees or more possible from novice riders. Available in 125 and 250 forms initially, we’re licking our lips at the prospect of the 500 version.

The two front wheels of the PIAGGIO MP3 re-define the very concept of ride stability to provide an unprecedented riding experience. The front assembly, with two independent tilting wheels, is far more stable than any scooter. The PIAGGIO MP3 grips the road even when tailing other vehicles, providing top performance in total safety.

The PIAGGIO MP3 comes into its own when heading out of town. Its road grip, cornering safety and tilt angle are unprecedented for a scooter, adding to the pleasure of riding different road surfaces at high speed.

This looks good:
http://www.tiltingmotorworks.com/

Substantial riding footage at about 1:13:
[youtube]tHXKuFcOF-0[/youtube]
http://www.tiltingmotorworks.com/pages/faqs.html

How does the tilting three wheeler handle compared to a motorcycle?
A Tilting Motor Works two wheeled tilting front end steers, leans and handles just like a motorcycle. If you don’t look below the handlebars you can’t tell that you have two wheels in the front.

Why two wheels in the front?
The major drawback to motorcycles is the limited safety and stability inherent with having only one front tire. The single front tire limits the amount of braking and traction that can be achieved. With only one front tire, a motorcycle can lose traction on a slippery patch of sand or oil in the road causing the bike to lose control. Having two tires will allow one tire to slip and yet will allow the vehicle to remain in control as the other wheel maintains traction. The TTW, with two front tires, greatly increases the braking capacity and significantly improves the amount of traction available. The TTW is a safer and more stable vehicle and will open motorcycle riding to people who have stability concerns about riding motorcycles.

My only 3 wheeler experience was a non-tilting Harley (one wheel in front) and the handling was awful. I would not even consider a one wheel in front trike. Based on reviews of the Carver I'm convinced that conventional trikes handle much better if they tilt, so its not unreasonable to think the same might be true for Tadpoles (particularly when factoring in reports from actual riders):
[youtube]qZAPVKyHO2A[/youtube]
I guess if you think your current trike handles as well as a two wheeler you might not have anything to gain. OTOH you might want to arrange a PIAGGIO MP3 test ride (please post your impressions if you do that).

Since he'll never get his "costs" back then why doesn't he do the world a favor and price it at material costs? I believe it's a fine trike, but if no more than a handful of people ever own or experience one then his effort is wasted AFAIC.

Not getting his costs back is different than producing them for material costs. But if you think you can convince him to "price it at material costs" let us know if you succeed . Maybe he'd consider selling kits.

I don't disagree that the price is too high though. I'd be more inclined to shop for an MP3 (hopefully with a blown engine). The MP3 would require a lot more money for batteries, but should be a minimum of about $4k cheaper (quotes are excerpts from a CL add):

2007 Piaggio MP3 250cc! Looks immaculate! - $3300 (Centerton)

I'm selling my 2007 Piaggio MP3 250cc motorcycle, and it is in near perfect condition!

This bike is less than 3 years old and still has the remaining warranty left with it, you will be covered completely until July; though I've had this bike since it left the show room and it's never given me any trouble. It always starts the first time and is ready to ride.

It only has 2300 miles on it, and I'm only asking 3,300$ for it...

 

[John in CR]

Doc and Mitch,

Other that a handful of companies making ridiculously priced toys for the rich for whom it is a game to try to spend the most on things, any enterprise that attempts to load all of their R&D into the first handful of units of a consumer product is guaranteed to fail. I don't begrudge commanding a high price for a high quality handcrafted item, but it's frustrating to see items that might enjoy mass appeal never see the light of day due to poor pricing decisions at the start.

I see tilting trikes as having great potential, but this mistake seems pervasive. We need to recruit some leaning trike developers to ES, so maybe some of the open source attitude here rubs off on them.

 

[docnjoj]

I believe that it is only a matter of time before a reasonably priced tilt trike appears on the market. There are enough of the prototypes out there (Tripendo etc) so that some company would be able to at least develop a kit. I have written to Stein to see if they have any tilt mechanisms in testing since their engineering philosiphy(sp?) is to make the bikes as modular as possible. I don't ride fast enough any more to justify selling my Mad Max and buying that gorgeous tilt trike but I really believe that the handwriting is on the wall for one to be availible at reasonable (2-3K?) cost. Maybe Lowracer could adapt his tilt front end to other trikes? Just a few thoughts. I agree with John that a business model designed to recoup costs on a first or second run is really a bad business model.
otherDoc

 

[wojtek]

yes it looks like a nice trike

i agree - soon the tilting trike will be a standard feature on trikes... and the prices will go down... just hope i will be younger and richer by the time it will happen!

 

[docnjoj]

yes it looks like a nice trike

i agree - soon the tilting trike will be a standard feature on trikes... and the prices will go down... just hope i will be younger and richer by the time it will happen!

I definitely like your attitude, Wojtek! Younger and richer for sure!

Oh Yeah Viktor Horvatski, the head shop guy at Steintrikes wrote back and said that they had done some test work with a tilt trike and I "started a worm in his head going" again. He said they are simply too busy right now pumping out trikes to do experiments but he is glad I like my Mad Max. Oh well.
otherDoc

 

[Miles]

Nice. This is the home page: http://fn-trike.de/Reinhold/HTM/seite1.html

 

[groundproximity]

Pretty much every trike with forward suspension uses 20" wheels because it reduces the loading on the steering mechanism when the driver steers and the wheels are on different levels of height. Also on every trike i´ve seen, the wheels aren´t prallel during steering and therefore rub on the ground. That in return reduces grip and ability to maintain speed while cornering. If you would use 26" wheels that effect would be even worse.

You would have to construct an axle mounting that keeps the wheels parallel independently of wheel position (suspension). And together with a tilting mechanism on top this becomes quite challenging.
Then you want the whole mechanism to react and behave so sensitive that you can steer just with your weight while riding a rough road ore a track that has side slope (quite uncomfortable on a regular trike anyway)
I guess thats where all the ball bearings, speheric head bolts and expensive extra CNC machined parts come into play. Also the high end shock absorbers and parts from motorcycles.

But why not using 20" wheels and forget about that rubbing and less corner speed.
Well i´ve rode my KMX in traffic only once, but to be honest i don´t like that perspective when a normal car (not talking about SUV´s) stops besides me. The driver cannot even see me.

The 26" wheels on that trike reduce that effect to a great amount since not only the wheel size is bigger but the seat also is in a higher position compared to the wheels and power train. The higher center of gravity is compensated by the ability to tilt.

I guess it´s a quite safe trike with the ability for very high and also safe speeds.
It is easy to see in nowadays traffic (thanks to flashing 2000 LED lumen in the front and nice LED backlights) and with the HS3525 on 48V it´ll be alot of fun.
I´t will be finished at the end of June.

 

[sk8norcal]

here's another german tilter, bergwerk tiefflieger,
http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/2010/12/bergwerk-tiefflieger.html


other front tilters,
http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/search/label/Pedal%20Powered%20-%202%20wheels%20front

 

[docnjoj]

I absolutely agree that a higher trike is a safer trike, provided that it tilts. I remember a video of a trike race where one guy was using a low tilter and he could corner at much, much higher speeds than any other competitor. The tilter could also be narrower since you balance it like a 2 wheeler, like the ill fated Drymer. Oh well I have to be content (for now ) with what I got.
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

Hey groundproximity1 I can't wait to see pics of your trike!
otherDoc

 

[groundproximity]

Me too otherDoc.
But i´m still sorting out controller problems with the new crystalyte HS motor. But soon they´ll come

 

[wojtek]

Me too otherDoc.
But i´m still sorting out controller problems with the new crystalyte HS motor. But soon they´ll come

cant wait either
Where are you based?

 

[groundproximity]

Germany. Just edited my profile :wink:
But as you can see on the other thread i´m still having problems with the controller.
The new crystalyte, supposedly without PAS insn´t doing anything...

What kind of freewheel were you able to fit on your HS motor. I cannot spread my rear dropout and the installation will be slightly different i guess.

 

[docnjoj]

That is some beautiful metalwork, groundP! Where is the motor going to go?
otherDoc

 

[wojtek]

im having 9 speed freewheel from crystalyte europe installed on scorpion trike. it seems to be fitting well but i have not tried it out. Still waiting for no pas controller!

a bit concerned about the problem you have reported with the new controller. 2 of them are on the way after months of waiting. I will let you know if they work for me as soon as i get them [around wednesday]

hope all will get sorted out with your controller. I would really want to see your trike ready! do you live close to Luxembourg?

 

[groundproximity]

Well i have an 8speed freewheel sittin here. We'll see how that fits.
No, unfortunately i live near Frankfurt but i will try to make some vid material.
Seems we have that same issue with the controller. Maybe my new controller doesn't work with a 3 pin throttle i don't know. Are there 4pin throttles on the market? I already askes Bazaki for a Lyen controller - but no answer yet...

 

[wojtek]

Well i have an 8speed freewheel sittin here. We'll see how that fits.
No, unfortunately i live near Frankfurt but i will try to make some vid material.
Seems we have that same issue with the controller. Maybe my new controller doesn't work with a 3 pin throttle i don't know. Are there 4pin throttles on the market? I already askes Bazaki for a Lyen controller - but no answer yet...

the problem is not with 3 pin throttle i believe - they all have 3 pin as fas as i know and the controller connector has 4 pins...
it is not a rocket science - if you connected all well, it should work! if it doesnt, then maybe the controller is faulty? good luck calling crystalyte europe tomorrow!

 

[groundproximity]

Well i tried a lot today connecting these 3 throttle pins to the 4 pin female controller connector. No joy though.
i had some strange behaviour when i connected red to red, black throttle to yellow controller and white throttle to one of the both remaining ones nothing but when i removed the white throttle pin (i guess thats signal) the motor started spinning at a constant rpm - no reaction from throttle twist though...
I'm quite confused. Would you mind to post how you connected your 3 throttle pins to the 4 female slots from the controller?
Thanks!

 

[groundproximity]

That is some beautiful metalwork, groundP! Where is the motor going to go?
otherDoc

Well i hope it will fit in the rear without any problems. It´s a 135mm standars dropout so i´m quite optimistic.

 

[docnjoj]

That is some beautiful metalwork, groundP! Where is the motor going to go?
otherDoc

Well i hope it will fit in the rear without any problems. It´s a 135mm standars dropout so i´m quite optimistic.

Interestingly I have found on all my trikes that I never needed a rear disk for stopping. The 2 big front discs do it quite well. The only reason I can think of is for racing or as a parking brake. Perhaps with the tilt it is different.
otherDoc

 

[groundproximity]

You're right. On this trike it works as a parking brake and for me it is an additional backup.
Redundency for the front brakes. It sure is a very rare case but i don't want to brake a single front whell at 50 kph.