Amped bikes geared motor

[yaemes]

So I had this ingenious idea (I thought I did, at least) to build a dual drive bike with GoldenMotor's mini hub motors (supposedly >250 W each) so, I'd make a stealth bike that was about 500W. I had some NiMH leftover from my last project so I was planning on making a giant bottle of batteries and putting it in the bottle holder.

Problem is, 500 W isn't that great and I was seriously about to scrap the idea of building a stealth bike because it wouldn't be powerful enough. I want some horse power! But there's just something about stealth that intrigues me. I thought I couldn't get the best of both worlds...

Then I come visit Endless Sphere today and I saw a thread on AmpedBikes, which I haven't visited in a while. So I go there, scroll through their stuff, and lo and behold they have stolen my idea and made it a reality. They have Lithium bottles and bottle holders, and mini hub motors that do 350-450 W. HOLY COW!

Slap 2 of those onto the bike and bam, you got a 1 horsepower stealth bike.

So I come here to ask, since I've been away from the bike scene for a while...Is there anything better I should know about?!

 

[Drunkskunk]

So I had this ingenious idea (I thought I did, at least) to build a dual drive bike with GoldenMotor's mini hub motors (supposedly >250 W each) so, I'd make a stealth bike that was about 500W. I had some NiMH leftover from my last project so I was planning on making a giant bottle of batteries and putting it in the bottle holder.

Problem is, 500 W isn't that great and I was seriously about to scrap the idea of building a stealth bike because it wouldn't be powerful enough. I want some horse power! But there's just something about stealth that intrigues me. I thought I couldn't get the best of both worlds...

Then I come visit Endless Sphere today and I saw a thread on AmpedBikes, which I haven't visited in a while. So I go there, scroll through their stuff, and lo and behold they have stolen my idea and made it a reality. They have Lithium bottles and bottle holders, and mini hub motors that do 350-450 W. HOLY COW!

Slap 2 of those onto the bike and bam, you got a 1 horsepower stealth bike.

So I come here to ask, since I've been away from the bike scene for a while...Is there anything better I should know about?!

Define Better. Two 5403s at 100 volts and 100 amps each fed by RC Lipo packs? A multi motor 20 Kilowatt RC motor system?

Not stealth enough?
how about 2 QR100 motors and a frame design that lets you hide the batteries and wires inside

There is always better, depending on your current perspective. Your idea would work well, except NiMh that fit in a bottle cage wouldn't have much range.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you are expecting to go fast, unless they have reworked the the internal gearing, the Amped Bikes geared motors are optimized for 36V, meaning any voltage over that won't give you any more speed as the gearing is such that it will be like you pedaling in too low of a gear to add anything at 20MPH for example.

When I ran mine at 53V, it gave me about 27 MPH on the flat, but once the surface charge wares off, it's more like 23 MPH. Don't get me wrong, it's a good motor, just that it is narrowly geared, and it's geared more for speed than hill climbing.

If you're wanting geared and speed/hill climbing, I think BMC or MAC have a better gearing ratio.

Another way to compare for you, same battery (53V) climbing a local 8% grade hill with no pedaling, a Amped Bikes DD 9 x 7 climbed it at 12 MPH with absolutely NO pedaling, not even to start at the even steeper ramp going up to the RR tracks before the hill.

On contrast, the Amped Bikes geared motor with that battery went just 5 -6 MPH and would have bogged down completely unless I pedaled, and I could only get about 8 - 9 MPH with even vigorous pedaling.

That motor however works great for my dad who doesn't go very fast, and with 36V it's a lot more peppy and very light compared to the DD 9 x 7 at just 36V which in my opinion is a dog at 36V and not worth the extra weight.

 

[yaemes]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you are expecting to go fast, unless they have reworked the the internal gearing, the Amped Bikes geared motors are optimized for 36V, meaning any voltage over that won't give you any more speed as the gearing is such that it will be like you pedaling in too low of a gear to add anything at 20MPH for example.

When I ran mine at 53V, it gave me about 27 MPH on the flat, but once the surface charge wares off, it's more like 23 MPH. Don't get me wrong, it's a good motor, just that it is narrowly geared, and it's geared more for speed than hill climbing.

If you're wanting geared and speed/hill climbing, I think BMC or MAC have a better gearing ratio.

Another way to compare for you, same battery (53V) climbing a local 8% grade hill with no pedaling, a Amped Bikes DD 9 x 7 climbed it at 12 MPH with absolutely NO pedaling, not even to start at the even steeper ramp going up to the RR tracks before the hill.

On contrast, the Amped Bikes geared motor with that battery went just 5 -6 MPH and would have bogged down completely unless I pedaled, and I could only get about 8 - 9 MPH with even vigorous pedaling.

That motor however works great for my dad who doesn't go very fast, and with 36V it's a lot more peppy and very light compared to the DD 9 x 7 at just 36V which in my opinion is a dog at 36V and not worth the extra weight.

Hmm...

The AmpedBikes site cites a 4.7:1 gear ratio on their mini motors. Anyone know what it is for the BMC & MAC's? They're the same wattage but there's a lot in there that could be different, I just don't know about, and the most important thing is probably the gear ratio...

I may not get the power I want from a single motor but it would have a nice and fast max speed. The addition of the second motor would probably alleviate my concern for the power while retaining these motor's nice max speed.

You say it had difficulties climbing that hill, but it wasn't dual drive, though. One could realistically expect a 2x increase in hill climbing speed from the addition of another motor if the battery can handle it.

Am I correct in assuming the DD 9x7 is of the larger variety?

To add a little detail, I'm looking to go about a little above 20 mph, I'd love to accelerate fast/climb hills but it's not a huge issue. I want total stealth. I'm wiring it up as neatly as I can and avoiding a rack and panniers like the devil. Cost does play a role. I'd like to stay under $2k, which is why I can't put the batteries in the frame

Edit: I will most certainly be off-roading more than your average biker. It's more fun!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

If you want stealth, then a fast geared motor is going to generally be louder than a DD counterpart, and yes, the cost is weight. There are smaller motors like the Aotema that is in between, but you're not really gaining that much.

I would see if there are small diameter DD motors that would accomplish you goal unless noise isn't an issue.

Your budget of $2000 isn't something that would preclude the use of very light and compact LiPo that fits in the triangle nicely, how far do you need to go, how many hills and how fast?

I would think maybe something like a Crystalyte 40X motor might work in the dual motor set-up. Dogman will probably have a few suggestions for ya.

 

[yaemes]

Then sound is also an issue. I don't care if it's very loud, but I really care if it sounds retarted, like the noisy grinding gearbox in my Chinese 2 stroke. Since the gears in these things are nylon or something plasticy like that, they should all be pretty quiet and sound nice and high tech, right?

Also, just figuring out DD means direct drive!

10 mile range would be acceptable, 20 mile would be optimal. I'm not filling the triangle though, this is gonna be stealth. Batteries in the waterbottle and maybe an extra in my backpack for extended range, or even put a LiPo pack of batteries in the backpack and run a wire to the seat :lol:

I took a look at the Crystalyte and Aotema, both look awesome but they are somewhat larger.

Protanium was something like 150W but really, really tiny. I don't think I could take a 300W bike...

At this point, everything I've looked into is geared--AmpedBikes, BMC, and MAC. How do you enjoy your BMC & MAC motors? Do any of them make noisy grinding gear noise?

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Have you looked at the Amped Bikes water bottle battery? It's really compact, and I bet you could dress it up to look like a high capacity water bottle or something. :wink:

http://ampedbikes.com/tubebattery.html

 

[Drunkskunk]

Then sound is also an issue. I don't care if it's very loud, but I really care if it sounds retarted, like the noisy grinding gearbox in my Chinese 2 stroke. Since the gears in these things are nylon or something plasticy like that, they should all be pretty quiet and sound nice and high tech, right?

Also, just figuring out DD means direct drive!

10 mile range would be acceptable, 20 mile would be optimal. I'm not filling the triangle though, this is gonna be stealth. Batteries in the waterbottle and maybe an extra in my backpack for extended range, or even put a LiPo pack of batteries in the backpack and run a wire to the seat :lol:

I took a look at the Crystalyte and Aotema, both look awesome but they are somewhat larger.

Protanium was something like 150W but really, really tiny. I don't think I could take a 300W bike...

At this point, everything I've looked into is geared--AmpedBikes, BMC, and MAC. How do you enjoy your BMC & MAC motors? Do any of them make noisy grinding gear noise?

Check youtube for videos of the motors, that will tel you how they sound. Geared motors all make gear noise. Some are as quiet as a cordless drill under a beach towel, others are as loud as a blender full of rocks. None of them will be stealth when you're riding them.

That amped bike is the smallest of the 3 you listed. I ride one similar, its a good motor. Its not too loud.

 

[neptronix]

Get into this video about halfway..
[youtube]HY7lBtPgoIk[/youtube]

That's the MXUS "250/350w" geared motor that ampedbikes, ebikekit ETC use. Noisy, but not overly so.
DD motors are quiet but they sure as hell aren't stealth. The things are huge and heavy.

Geared motors *will* go faster with more volts, providing that you feed them more amps in addition. They are low amp creatures by nature, so for hill climbing, expect to pedal with the smaller motors unless you have a big geared motor like a mac/bmc and good gears.

The mac is not exactly stealth looking however. I just got mine in, here's what it looks like compared to the MXUS motor:

 

[yaemes]

Thank you!!! That was an awesome suggestion, certainly alleviated my concerns about sound. I don't care that it's loud, because the cool futuristic sound makes it sound good! I'll post pics of my bike as I build it, but it'll be a few weeks while I gather money.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

 

[urbancommuterstore.com]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you are expecting to go fast, unless they have reworked the the internal gearing, the Amped Bikes geared motors are optimized for 36V, meaning any voltage over that won't give you any more speed as the gearing is such that it will be like you pedaling in too low of a gear to add anything at 20MPH for example.

When I ran mine at 53V, it gave me about 27 MPH on the flat, but once the surface charge wares off, it's more like 23 MPH. Don't get me wrong, it's a good motor, just that it is narrowly geared, and it's geared more for speed than hill climbing.

If you're wanting geared and speed/hill climbing, I think BMC or MAC have a better gearing ratio.

Another way to compare for you, same battery (53V) climbing a local 8% grade hill with no pedaling, a Amped Bikes DD 9 x 7 climbed it at 12 MPH with absolutely NO pedaling, not even to start at the even steeper ramp going up to the RR tracks before the hill.

On contrast, the Amped Bikes geared motor with that battery went just 5 -6 MPH and would have bogged down completely unless I pedaled, and I could only get about 8 - 9 MPH with even vigorous pedaling.

That motor however works great for my dad who doesn't go very fast, and with 36V it's a lot more peppy and very light compared to the DD 9 x 7 at just 36V which in my opinion is a dog at 36V and not worth the extra weight.

Is the DD motor better than the geared amped hub motor for climbing? I thought that the geared hub has better climbing performance? Im thinking of using a geared hub motor by amped bikes as a mid-drive system, do you think it will work or Im better off using a DD hub? Thanks

 

[dogman dan]

The ultimate steath, dual motor bike might for dirt riding might be dual 4011 crystalytes. Wont be fast at 36v, but lipo and Lyens controlers will fix that in a jiffy. Not sure if Grin still has any in stock.

Pretty much the quitest of dd motors, and still pretty small. Glue a disk rotor to each side of front one, and nobody will ever see that there is no calipers.

As for stealth while riding, well dream on. On my local singletracks, they see me riding uptrail at 15 mph, and know damn well it's that guy with a motor. So why bother with all the stealth? you ain't gonna hide that battery anyway. You aint gonna hide 1000 watts, so why worry about the noise of two gearmotors.

Really, just pick two motors and stop fretting the stealth thing. It's obvious when you have a motor to everybody that is paying attention. Those not paying attention won't notice two motors or the sound.

 

[wineboyrider]

Dogman is right. Most people don't even notice how big your motor is or how loud it is. Believe me I know. I used to run my cyclone setup and it was louder than any of the hub motors I have and no one even seems to notice! Most people around here are oblivious to bikes in general. In fact, all bikes are stealth so ride at your own risk here anyways. 8)

 

[neptronix]

DD hubs are kinda big though, and heavy.. you can spot em a mile a way.. just sayin

Not that the larger geared hubs ( MAC, BMC ) are stealthy.. but um.. they are.. stealthier?

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you are expecting to go fast, unless they have reworked the the internal gearing, the Amped Bikes geared motors are optimized for 36V, meaning any voltage over that won't give you any more speed as the gearing is such that it will be like you pedaling in too low of a gear to add anything at 20MPH for example.

When I ran mine at 53V, it gave me about 27 MPH on the flat, but once the surface charge wares off, it's more like 23 MPH. Don't get me wrong, it's a good motor, just that it is narrowly geared, and it's geared more for speed than hill climbing.

If you're wanting geared and speed/hill climbing, I think BMC or MAC have a better gearing ratio.

Another way to compare for you, same battery (53V) climbing a local 8% grade hill with no pedaling, a Amped Bikes DD 9 x 7 climbed it at 12 MPH with absolutely NO pedaling, not even to start at the even steeper ramp going up to the RR tracks before the hill.

On contrast, the Amped Bikes geared motor with that battery went just 5 -6 MPH and would have bogged down completely unless I pedaled, and I could only get about 8 - 9 MPH with even vigorous pedaling.

That motor however works great for my dad who doesn't go very fast, and with 36V it's a lot more peppy and very light compared to the DD 9 x 7 at just 36V which in my opinion is a dog at 36V and not worth the extra weight.

Is the DD motor better than the geared amped hub motor for climbing? I thought that the geared hub has better climbing performance? Im thinking of using a geared hub motor by amped bikes as a mid-drive system, do you think it will work or Im better off using a DD hub? Thanks

Most definitely, the DD (9C 9 x 7) in the case of the amped geared motor, is a superior hill climber!

I know, it would seem to be the opposite, but it's really about what the motor is designed to do, and if I understand correctly, the amped geared motor was designed to be light first, fast second, and hills weren't really part of the design. I think since they only sell a 36V battery, that they have optimized that motor for just that voltage, and unlike the DD hub motor, they are very narrowly focused on getting about 22 MPH at 36V on the flat, no wind, and to be lighter than the DD and if you look closely, it's listed as a "350W" motor, where the DD is a "500W" motor.

For a mid-drive, take a cue from Clever Cycles and use a DD. If you need a very compact one, you might consider either the Aotema or Crystalyte 400 series motors as Dogman suggested.

I like the 9C 9 x 7 very well so far, but if I had an Aotema or X-Lyte 400 series motor, I might try those too. I haven't done much testing with either of these motors (only briefly test ridden a Aotema, never set eyes on a X-Lyte motor in the flesh), but Clever Cycles is very happy with the X-Lyte 400 series motors, and they fit well in the Stoke Monkey set-up, though the 400 series is an older design, it's not as light or efficient as the 9C 9 x 7.

You could also consider a different winding, a slower winding of the 9C like a 6 X 10, but it all really comes down to how you plan on reducing the gearing. If you use a similar set-up to the Stoke Monkey, then I am sure that you can get decent reduction with a more standard 16T drive gear/freewheel, I am not sure however, what size they use, but I am pretty sure it's not as small as the 13T that I am using.

 

[motomech]

I just posted this over in the "Items For Sale-New" catagory, but I will re-post it here;

<<<<I think I have my first build sold today(for what I have into it) and I'm planning my second.

The first build turned out awesome, but there are a few things I want to do different.

The 1st. uses the 350W version of this geared motor(although I didn't get it from #@&*^-&@$% and I payed top dollar)
and it has worked great. I do light off-roading(Jeep trails, sandy tracks) w/no problems.
On 48V, the flat, no wind top speed is 23-24 m.p.h., faster than I can pedal w/ 11/44 gears.

What I want is meaningful pedal assist at top speed, which I believe is in the 20 to 22 m.p.h. range, w/ 11/48 gears.
I also want 2 whl. drive for those sandy tracks.
To that end, I am going to build a full suspension Giant Anthem or Mongoose Cannan(they have the biggest triangle areas), dual 250W hub bike. I will put 44V's of Lipo in a Falcon EV triangle bag.
The controllers in these kits have a "Euro legal" switch, which on my 350w/48V set-up reduces top speed from 22-23 m.p.h. to 17-18 m.p.h. Too much.
I intend to use one throttle w/ a switch to go from dual mode to single mode and I am looking for these numbers.

One 250w motor, 18 m.p.h.
Two 250W motors, 20 m.p.h.

I expect better climbing ability w/ dual 250W motors Vs. one 350W motor.>>>>

On my frt. whl. kit, w/ it's tiny controller rated @ 15 or 20 amps(dedpending on the seller), I regularly see an 18 amp peak on the C.A. So dual motors are not going to run off one of Amped Tube Batt.s(max discharge 20-25 amps). You would need two, or Lipo.

This motor does have a little growl, but once rolling at any speed, my knobby tire is louder.

I looked at a pr. of Mac's(there is some great deals on them now, especially if you want to lace your own wheel), but they are, as pointed out, much larger and even reducing the motive power(volts), they would put me in a speed range that is more than I'm looking for. I also would have some reservations about putting a Mac in Alloy forks, even w/ two torque arms.

I like these little "Bafang style" motors and based on my experiences w/ my frt. whl. drive bike, I think a dual motor set-up will make a good light-duty off-road bike.
"Light-duty" as in, no steep hills, no jumping, no climbing large rocks, etc.