Announcement - Soon to be released easybuild battery box

To be honest I'm totally not impressed by this project so far. Actually I thought all the unproven claims and buzz words were a bit annoying by times.

First of all do "solderless" solutions for batteries already exist. So do we have spring loaded battery holders and battery clips. (A lot of them even stackable.) Also if you have a high enough demand you may order your cells with screw terminals, from the factory, instead of button or flat top. No rocket science and probably not protected by obscurity or patents at all.

The second thing is that connections need to be reliable. Previous mentioned options do have their applications, where batteries need to be serviceable, but I would say they are not as reliable as joining two metals by fusion. Spot welding is also the cheapest option, even if you decide not to buy a spot welder and let a 3rd party take care of it.

It would have been helpful if zzoing took at the different approaches of building battery packs, before jumping to conclusions in regards to labour time and costs. Two fine examples of total different approaches of building battery packs are the Bosch power packs and the Bionx packs.
Bosch power packs are completely over-engineered, especially compared to the batteries for their tools, but really nice built. The production of these power packs cover a few simple steps, which are not labour intensive at all. The materials used are nicely engineered, can be ordered in different quantities all around the world and don't use a lot of raw material, being it metal or plastic. Cells are connected with only one spot weld for each of them.
The approach of the Bionx battery packs is a little bit more straightforward. 10 cells (5x2) are glued together and spot welded in series; 4 of these series are paralleled by glueing those together and connecting them by thick copper wire. These packs are wrapped in PVC and placed in a cheap plastic case with the BMS. (Probably with some added foam in the later models to secure the pack in place in the casing.)

I don't want to judge zzoing's work so far, but I'm really not convinced at all it will lead to something viable. Quite the opposite actually. I think there's an issue _how_ the showed prototype relies on screws to make good contacts. especially if you take tolerances in cell dimensions into account. Even if I'm wrong here: the most important aspect is not covered correctly and that's the end price of this niche product. (Don't forget the costs of raw materials here, which will be totally over the top for the cell holders alone.) Dave from EEVBlog made a very nice vlog concerning the pricing of products.
[youtube]UwrkfHadeQQ[/youtube]
 
cheers Tristan,

Sorry to sound rude, i am working on something, i thought it would be cool to leave this thread dormant until i have something sweet to present to you. maxtor was a duff name for a boy thing and so i requested some help for a decent name. which wont go the way of maxtor, Spectrum, betamax, and all those cool products. do you buy hand crafted cells? do you have hand crafted spokes? no. we can't hand craft stuff sometimes. it's just not practical... We need help on the forum, i want to make stuff that i haven't been able to buy on this forum for my ebikes. i cant buy the kit i want to buy here or anywhere. I think others have the same dilemna. hence the solderless threads.

The adult human ear functions up to a frequency of 14/17 kHz. A young person at 22Khz. The human ear can very precisely perceive sounds of 5000 hz, and measure fluctuations of a fifth of a thousandth of a second. which is roughly how fast i have tested my 8grams per cell solderless design while flattening an potato with it in one blow. I am using it as a hammer, smashing potatos and apples while listening for variations of voltage. Someone told me that is a silly test. listening for 1/2000ths of a second changes of the battery output while giving my battery pack concussion, in the batteries lease voltage stable state, 1p12s.

How else would you test a battery for potential disconnection while you are using it to flatten potatos, apples, cucumbers, and aubergines in single blows? Apple tests it's phones with drop tests and hammers and oscilloscopes and checks for weak points before offering them to people. It's the serious thing to do.

If i put 400 euros of batteries in an endless sphere engineers box, that's what i want to see, i want to see him smashing potatos with it which measuring the voltage and saying "see, this box is quite tough, it can take a lot of mechanical abuse while riding"

And no, you can't put a battery on a bike for 10 or 20 rides and tell people it works, it has to last 400 rides without showing any potential for catastrophic fusion which you then recharge it at home on the 400 recharge from slipped or corroded contacts. I.e. I am not buying a battery box here which isnt proven to work for 2000 hours of ATB bike without any degredation. Otherwise the seller has liability.

An oscilloscope for measuring AC/DC ripples is made for measuring periodic ripples. Perhaps you can tell me how to use an oscilloscope to test sub millisecond fluctuations in the voltage. It's some kind of obscure function perhaps on some 5000 euro oscilloscopes?

1) A battery which does not have physical continuity of cells, how do you propose to precisely measure it's voltage continuity?

2)Please show me the threads where people have high energy density cheap battery which they can put in a box and run on their bike? (no?)
Actually everyone here is clearly soldering their packs together. Why say that there is a better solution than soldering packs.

3)show me the Costs, specifications, weight, energy density, of these solderless packs that i can buy here.

4)What is the percentage of community users using easily built light high energy solderless packs? less than one percent? show me where they are?

Show me threads with popular, adopted, cheap, light solderless packs, that i can buy now and have in 3 months? show me these amazing threads because i don't think that they exist. ILL BUY ONE TOMORROW< SHOW ME THE BOX?! The sales page should comprise total weight of assembly per KWH. A list of component parts. Examples of the use of the kit. Measurement of the kit performance under duress. Agnium, show me your specifications page?

5) show me specifications list for any solderless packs. it's a list of scientific measures of weight, MTBF, I/O etc.

You have to differentiate between types of solderless battery pack. tabs weigh 0.05 grams and have one thousandth of the inertia and force of cylindrical cells.

I've been on these forums for some years, as AFAIK there are Zero reliable solderless battery packs that people can use here to build a an ebike, and i have never seen anything cheap and mass produced for sale here, perhaps if you are lucky you can try a hand tailored solderless cylindrical battery pack which is in alpha stage... Lifepo is heavy and expensive and builders on Endless Sphere are not too keen on them relative to 18650 type energy density. show me the prices, i believe that it's roughly double the weight and price for a solderless today.

Economies of scale... I learnt this when i was 15, supply and demand, specialization of labour, we bought 14" TFT's for $1500 in 1997 and
$120 in 2007. Henry ford made 1500 cars in 1904 and 70,000 cars in 1911. Sure lecture me about economics. my father is a professor of economics in oxford uniersity and he eats only dry shrubs like oxford profs do, and published chemistry stuff in nature magazine, its ok, i have got some basic understanding, i hope? :? :roll: i'm vaguely not oblivious. i probably have sell 10 packs this year made in my garage using multilayered cut performance composites and machined pressed tabs? and we will be flying. ;) ill send for equipment now.

Also, I have been told the basic principles of elastomer physics on this forum. Prior to being told them, i was reading PHD studies on cross flexing bridge structures inside advanced elastomers... it's just that i wish to use the best material that exists for my design and i don't have 5000 dollars to shell out on making some rigorously tested and specified, weighed, MTBF rated versions for people on this forum, for super cheapskate prices, with an assembly video guide, and all that kind of thing. i'll say to people if i manage to do that for them, that is my aim, and that's how economics works, if i cant truly do that for people, then i will not say anything.
 
TristanP said:
To be honest I'm totally not impressed by this project so far. Actually I thought all the unproven claims and buzz words were a bit annoying by times.

First of all do "solderless" solutions for batteries already exist. So do we have spring loaded battery holders and battery clips. (A lot of them even stackable.) Also if you have a high enough demand you may order your cells with screw terminals, from the factory, instead of button or flat top. No rocket science and probably not protected by obscurity or patents at all.

The second thing is that connections need to be reliable. Previous mentioned options do have their applications, where batteries need to be serviceable, but I would say they are not as reliable as joining two metals by fusion. Spot welding is also the cheapest option, even if you decide not to buy a spot welder and let a 3rd party take care of it.

It would have been helpful if zzoing took at the different approaches of building battery packs, before jumping to conclusions in regards to labour time and costs. Two fine examples of total different approaches of building battery packs are the Bosch power packs and the Bionx packs.
Bosch power packs are completely over-engineered, especially compared to the batteries for their tools, but really nice built. The production of these power packs cover a few simple steps, which are not labour intensive at all. The materials used are nicely engineered, can be ordered in different quantities all around the world and don't use a lot of raw material, being it metal or plastic. Cells are connected with only one spot weld for each of them.
The approach of the Bionx battery packs is a little bit more straightforward. 10 cells (5x2) are glued together and spot welded in series; 4 of these series are paralleled by glueing those together and connecting them by thick copper wire. These packs are wrapped in PVC and placed in a cheap plastic case with the BMS. (Probably with some added foam in the later models to secure the pack in place in the casing.)

I don't want to judge zzoing's work so far, but I'm really not convinced at all it will lead to something viable. Quite the opposite actually. I think there's an issue _how_ the showed prototype relies on screws to make good contacts. especially if you take tolerances in cell dimensions into account. Even if I'm wrong here: the most important aspect is not covered correctly and that's the end price of this niche product. (Don't forget the costs of raw materials here, which will be totally over the top for the cell holders alone.) Dave from EEVBlog made a very nice vlog concerning the pricing of products.
Click to expand...

Spot welded packs tend to fail often. I have seen lawnmower batteries with detached spotwelded tabs, segway battery packs with same isues. You take any pack, and you have materials which are scrap after cells done its time. With this design, battery pack could last a life time, save money in a long run, save time and make maintenance possible.
I am not talking about zzoing idea cause i have not seen full idea sketch. What i am working on is complete battery enclosure so do some maths regarding the cost. You have to by nickel strips. you have to buy some top insulators, holders or glue the cells. If you dont have spotwelder you need to buy one, like on es, 150usd. Then you have to think how to enclose and protect your cells. Shrinkwrap is common here but is it reliable? Then add shipping costs and time. Add time sourcing all the materials and time building the battery. then comes the end of your battery and you are back to square one. with solderless kit you pay more first time(if its more compared to time and money spent for spotwelded pack in the first place), one shipping fee and thats it. You then just swap cells and do that as long as you live.
You are mentioning bolts to be unreliable in this application but the whole world is held together with bolts, sure its more reliable than diy hot glue held cells.
I thought about it a lot and i see the scale tipping towards solderless pack by a lot. Look up my thread and maybe you find it to be viable option.
I am not saying its for every application but lots of people would benefit and appreciate this approach.
 
Where do we already have? If you do not have photos and information, show me?

clearly there is not already an easy build box selling page on the forum.

One thing is sure, we all have a lot of respect for this forum, and all the people here are on an engineering level that is very specialized and high. And we all have a lot of loyalty to everyone else on the forum.
some noobs like myself, that's ok, I explain wrong somtimes, sorry.

meanwhile... here is a google of all the solderless products available today... It's all from this wonderful website, although.

https://www.google.fr/search?q=solderless+battery+pack&num=100&biw=1195&bih=756&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdsaih7e3PAhWBJ8AKHSULDNgQ_AUI7wEoAQ

Economics wise... you shouldnt sell a new chemistry straight to cars and you should sell a new battery box straight to ATB users. so perhaps if we can make a box cheap, it will have to not start with ebikes. So this thread has perhaps made that an imperative to me. perhaps if a solderless box is made perhaps it can fork out reasonably fast.

I am going to try. i may fail but at least i tried.
 
Any pictures of that soon to be released easybuild battery box.
At least, any pictures of the current prototype ?
I'd like to see pictures please.
 
I mean you could for sure boil some eggs with that battery.
Don't get me wrong, the man has the right direction and i appreciate that he does it, i only disagree on calling it invention or that it will be done and sold soon. Its a lot of RND not talking about test units and time + money it requires. I have spend nearing 1K EUR on my attempt already and still don't have to show something even close.
But the efforts are good.
 
zzoing said:
An oscilloscope for measuring AC/DC ripples is made for measuring periodic ripples. Perhaps you can tell me how to use an oscilloscope to test sub millisecond fluctuations in the voltage. It's some kind of obscure function perhaps on some 5000 euro oscilloscopes?
.
Click to expand...

This is called "runt pulse" detect you can find it in the trigger menu. But why wouldn't you just use DC voltage and trigger on a falling edge?

Cant afford a scope?, use a comparator to a flip flop. Light up an LED if the voltage ever drops out or drops below a reference voltage you set by potentiometer.
 
Spot welds only fall apart if they are not properly done initially, or if the pack construction is not done correctly to prevent mechanical loading of the welds ( they are not intended to hold the pack together !)
The big drawback of ANY non weld system is added weight and complexity...even if you can guarantee reliability.
The primary advantage of these 18650 type cell packs is their low weight and compact size for any given capacity, and anything you add will detract from that.
I think you would be better spending time and effort developing a "spot weld removal tool" for quick & clean dismantling of spot welded cell connects.
 
Hillhater said:
Spot welds only fall apart if they are not properly done initially, or if the pack construction is not done correctly to prevent mechanical loading of the welds ( they are not intended to hold the pack together !)
The big drawback of ANY non weld system is added weight and complexity...even if you can guarantee reliability.
The primary advantage of these 18650 type cell packs is their low weight and compact size for any given capacity, and anything you add will detract from that.
I think you would be better spending time and effort developing a "spot weld removal tool" for quick & clean dismantling of spot welded cell connects.
Click to expand...

Your statements contradict.
If done right you will use a holder to hold 18650, you will have gaps between the cells and you will have an enclosure for that battery. If done right you will use expensive spot welder to get consistency and nickel of high quality.
Complexity comes with spot welders, with cells being damaged in a battery.
The kit that I am workin on is a battery with enclosure, complete, robust battery. The compression lids are cell holders as well.
I wander if you could feel couple hundred gram difference in weight if there is that much?
 
Hillhater said:
I think you would be better spending time and effort developing a "spot weld removal tool" for quick & clean dismantling of spot welded cell connects.
Click to expand...
Spot weld removal is probably just a dremel and some fine abrasive papers.
I'm still on this project and it's in a very advanced stage, i'm pretty sure there are a mass of benefits for many kinds of users out there and i hope that it will be suitable for ATV vehicles too, not just travel energy and easy solar arrays.
the good old days:
9v.jpg


This is the best i found to weld flat onto 18650 because they can handle 40 amps each, 1.2cm long some of them, perhaps a custom designed 9V flat type button connector is possible for 18650:
HTB1QzXxJpXXXXXZXXXXq6xXFXXXX.jpg
 
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