Anyone tried Hacker Q150 motor or Hacker HST-350 controller?

[macribs]

In the neematic thread there was a post about this motor/controller combo. Supposedly 20 kw peak power. Seems controller tops out at 580 A peak??
The more I think about it the more fun that combo sounds. But there are no tech info on their webiste, and their webiste is in German
Sucks for me as I don't know German language.

Motor:
http://hacker-industrial-solutions.com/qsl-150-45/

Controller:
http://hacker-industrial-solutions.com/frisch-fertigung-neue-hst-350-bldc-controller-serie/


I do like the design of the controller, from the pics it looks like it is almost build like a radiator. Should be great for air cooling when pumping high current into the controller.

If anyone got specs on these two I would be so happy. And if you tried one or the other or the combo pls let me know what is your feedback.
Don't even know the kv of the motor so hard to say what kind of reduction would be needed.

What you think, the real thing (20 kw peak) or just a hard core advertiser boasting the numbers to spark interest?
If this is real it seems on par or stronger then the Joby.


From their webiste, what little info I could harvest about motor and controller.

Spoiler: Google translated

Controller:
The current HST-350 series is produced freshly and immediately available. This high performance BLDC controller is particularly suitable for use in the electric mobility and designed for up to 580A phase current. Currently, this controller is used in electric Race Karts, -Motorrädern and ultralight aircraft. But many industrial applications are therefore possible such as the control of pumps, generators, screwdrivers, saws, winches, etc.

The HST-350 Brushless DC Controller is a full-feature top-class model. Developed by Hacker Motor in cooperation with engineers from the automotive sector designed for tough industrial use.

Ideal for mobile and stationary applications with a voltage up to 60V and a maximum current of 350A (approximately 20kW input power).

The integrated CAN bus multiple controllers can be operated and controlled in parallel, whereby different, even "more-engined" drive concepts are possible.

The splash-proof aluminum housing is already optimized for mobile use.

The controller parameters can be matched by a small GUI quickly to the individual needs and adjust.

On the input side both analog and digital signals can be processed.

are supported for security reasons only motors with Hall sensors for position determination. is regulated either by speed or torque.

The hardware is covered for at undervoltage and overvoltage, overtemperature or at short circuit on phases and battery.

A recuperation and intelligent power management are of course in times of electromobility.

The HST-350 is characterized by the high level of integration and thus blending seamlessly into virtually any operating environment a.

The HST-350 controller is particularly adapted to the cooperation with the engines of our Q-series and can provide in cooperation with this its full performance capabilities.

Areas of application are ground vehicles such as electric bicycles, karts, motorcycles, (cab) Roller well as aircraft powered parachutes, UL's, UAV's and other small aircraft.

Industrial applications include pumps, fans, power tools, generators, winches and other special applications.

Motor:

The Q-150 Brushless DC motor series is designed specifically for the needs of electric mobility. It was of very particularly given to optimize the weight-to-performance ratio. The high efficiency is achieved on the one hand by the use of quality materials and components, as well as by a Bewicklungstechnik, which allows us to reach the technically maximum possible degree of filling in the winding.

But durability and resistance to external influences were on the task list of our engineers. In mechanical design emphasis was placed on optimal sizing of the bearing and support elements.

The high power delivery and outstanding elasticity characterize the broadband capabilities of this drive and thus meets the requirements of mini mobility directly invoice.

The different versions allow a universal use in various mobility concepts, whether on land, on water or in the air.

Select can corresponding two stator lengths and their application, customized winding. On request, the system can also be equipped with reverb and temperature sensors so that an exact control, even from a standstill, possible.

We recommend using this engine series in combination with our HST-350 Brushless controller that is perfectly matched to the Q 150th

Areas of application are ground vehicles such as electric bicycles, karts, motorcycles, (cab) Roller well as aircraft powered parachutes, UL's, UAV's and other small aircraft.

Industrial applications include pumps, fans, power tools, generators, winches and other special applications.

 

The Q-150 series can be customized to suit your needs. Both the stator length, ie the number of turns will be specially designed and manufactured for your use. But also special requests in terms of flange or output can be considered.

Available with or without sensors.

 

[toolbag]

I believe this is what E-Volo is using in the Volocopter. I've seen this pairing run on a dyno, and it's a little noisy which makes me think it's a quite simple six-step controller.

Looks like it uses hall sensors .

 

[bionicon]

Have send two mails asking for more technical information......no answer yet.....maybe on holiday?

 

[macribs]

Yeah I have tried to contact them via the contact form several time and each time I get the same error:
BEIM VERSUCH, DEINE MITTEILUNG ZU VERSENDEN, IST EIN FEHLER AUFGETRETEN. BITTE VERSUCHE ES SPÄTER NOCH EINMAL.

Probably either hoax or they are a small company catering for local customers only? Or maybe they are not even in business anymore? Or vaporware?

 

[bionicon]

Received a mail today, from Hacker . Had send them a request for more information and price via my company, so they asked my "billing details" to check me out before i get price and information.
Lets hope i am aproved and they will send me the information

 

[macribs]

I was so excited when I bionicon received email from the company behind the HAcker Q 150 motor and the HST 350 controller.
But that information was very hard to understand. See page 2 for the more powerful Q 150 motor and page 3 for the HST 350 controller.
Will this combo make 20 kw peak?

Maybe some of the motor gurus can have a look at the attached pdf to see if those numbers are possible to translate into laymans terms.

 

[Pajda]

I was so excited when I bionicon received email from the company behind the HAcker Q 150 motor and the HST 350 controller.
But that information was very hard to understand. See page 2 for the more powerful Q 150 motor and page 3 for the HST 350 controller.
Will this combo make 20 kw peak?

Maybe some of the motor gurus can have a look at the attached pdf to see if those numbers are possible to translate into laymans terms.

In short, hands off..

Those motors and controllers are primarily intended for propulsion of aircraft propeller. In this aplication there is complete different torque load than in land vehicles = almost no torque peaks. Yes this motor design has unbeliveable torque constant (0.1Nm/A) for such small and lightweight motor but it is almost useless for land vehicles due to extremely fast overheating of the motor under continuous load.

For the current example. Q150 motor have a 4350rpm no load speed at 50V, and I am quite sure that under heavy load it will rapidly fall down to 3500rpm (probably much more). From datasheet it is not clear If the HTS350 controller can do 350A peak or continuous, but for peak 350A it is ~35Nm peak torque for Q150 motor and this gives me about 13.3kW of power but definitely for only a few seconds due to motor overheating. For 20kW you need at least 600A peak into the motor.

Continuous power of this motor seems to be in ideal case 4.3kW and 11Nm but I guess it will be only a half of it under real life conditions.

 

[macribs]

Yes I know it is intended for aircrafts, so are various other small motors that have been used successfully on e-bikes.
Additional cooling might be required as well as maybe a jackshaft with a slip clutch. Cooling could be additional fan or fan mounted on shaft.

The controller has 580 A peak current. 350 continuous, sine wave FOC.

According to Hacker that motor and controller combination is used in several go kart builds that tops out at 20 kw.
If the Q150/HST 350 combo is working great for go karts it seems it should work well for e-bikes too?

 

[Pajda]

If you think about "standard "e-bike use the yes it will work well. I mean an e-bike with the average power of about 500-1000W even with "20kW" peaks (but it seems to me impossible to pass this power on the road without slipping the wheel). But if you think about 5kW continuos use with many 20kW peaks then you will be very likely disappointed.

And yes if controller can give 580A peak current then it seems to be real to do 20kW for a few seconds.

 

[macribs]

Well for e-bike usage peak power for 3-4 seconds will be enough, especially at those numbers. 3-4 seconds would propel you to top speed.
I am not ready to dismiss such a setup right away. From the top of my head I can think of several Astro builds, 10080 builds and even a few 150cc helicopter motors being used for e-bikes at very high peak power. The revolt motors are also powerful, and Neematic pushes 20kw peak from 160 pro.

Thing is that peak power will only be for short bursts, and if go karts work well so might e-bikes on that combo. Cos I realize that kart tracks will be very different from e-bike usage, as bikes will need to do some climbing as well. But with the right gear ratio that should be all possible.

One thing is still unclear, the price for this combo. If this is really high dollars I don't think I will have the guts to try it out. But I will wait for the price to be known before I know yes or no.

Might even be that the HST 350 controller would be a sweet match for ie the Revolt 160 pro.

 

[toolman2]

In short, hands off..

Those motors and controllers are primarily intended for propulsion of aircraft propeller. In this aplication there is complete different torque load than in land vehicles = almost no torque peaks. Yes this motor design has unbeliveable torque constant (0.1Nm/A) for such small and lightweight motor but it is almost useless for land vehicles due to extremely fast overheating of the motor under continuous load.

For the current example. Q150 motor have a 4350rpm no load speed at 50V, and I am quite sure that under heavy load it will rapidly fall down to 3500rpm (probably much more). From datasheet it is not clear If the HTS350 controller can do 350A peak or continuous, but for peak 350A it is ~35Nm peak torque for Q150 motor and this gives me about 13.3kW of power but definitely for only a few seconds due to motor overheating. For 20kW you need at least 600A peak into the motor.

Continuous power of this motor seems to be in ideal case 4.3kW and 11Nm but I guess it will be only a half of it under real life conditions.

So do you think the joby JM1 aircraft motor: http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php would be any better to use without any additional cooling, or would a cro motor (or others) be better for high performance and hill climbing without overheating?

 

[Pajda]

So do you think the joby JM1 aircraft motor: http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php would be any better to use without any additional cooling, or would a cro motor (or others) be better for high performance and hill climbing without overheating?

I think it will be the same case. Yes I believe that for example JM1 can do the peak torque and power as described but for a few seconds and then you need a very long cooling pause for repeating.

I have tried in the past one of those "unbeliveable" outrunner motors. It weighed 8000g and was rated as 40kW peak and 20kW continuous. But it made less than 4kW continuous running at 130°C with massive forced air cooling.

Lets get back to the JM1 specs. They are declaring 13.2kW continuous. But even if this motor will have 95% efficiency, still there is 660W of waste heat in 2750g of mass which must be removed. It is almost impossible to dissipate it by air. By the way air cooling is generally very ineffective in this case. You must use a turbine for achieving some significant effect.

I wish I will be wrong but I guess that usable continuous power will be much lower close to 2kW at best (but this is still enough for standard e-bike). The biggest problem of this motor design is generally that it heated extremelly fast when the high torque is applied. And this is very typical for traction application. So this is the main reason why those motors are used mainly with propeller. Because in this application is demanded continuous power only with almost none high torque starts.

I am sure that cromotor and other similar design motors will be definitely better choice just because you can find many positive feedback from real life use.

 

[macribs]

It seems Neematic is running the Revolt 160 pro @20kw peak without any issues.
They might have done some modifications regarding cooling but I guess in due time the details will be revealed.

Reason I point this out is that in order to move the motor out of the rear wheel for most builds real estate is an issue. While I would love to fit a 273 or a hubmonster as a mid drive that is not an option at the moment, as it would require wide frame and the motor would be mid drive on the cost of battery space.

So in order to find a powerful yet manageable sized motor to use as mid drive I think the most realistic at this point is to choose one of the high powered rc motors. The continuous power I don't think is really that important to be honest. When will you really need 10-15 or 20 kw for prolonged periods? After a few seconds of full throttle the high powered rc motor has propelled you to top speed. Rolling of throttle to maintain descent cruising speed even past 30 mph does not take 10+ kw. But silly fast acceleration, hooligan style riding, red light rodeos etc will eat whatever you feed it. And that 20kw burst in a few seconds will be insanely fun. With thermal management you should be able to use the power as much as possible without having things bursting into flames.
To get more then a few full throttle races in a row additional cooling will be required. It seems Matt is doing just fine with the blower on his Astro's. So I am guessing that will work for a wide range of motors.

 

[toolman2]

So do you think the joby JM1 aircraft motor: http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php would be any better to use without any additional cooling, or would a cro motor (or others) be better for high performance and hill climbing without overheating?

I think it will be the same case. Yes I believe that for example JM1 can do the peak torque and power as described but for a few seconds and then you need a very long cooling pause for repeating.

I have tried in the past one of those "unbeliveable" outrunner motors. It weighed 8000g and was rated as 40kW peak and 20kW continuous. But it made less than 4kW continuous running at 130°C with massive forced air cooling.

Lets get back to the JM1 specs. They are declaring 13.2kW continuous. But even if this motor will have 95% efficiency, still there is 660W of waste heat in 2750g of mass which must be removed. It is almost impossible to dissipate it by air. By the way air cooling is generally very ineffective in this case. You must use a turbine for achieving some significant effect.

I wish I will be wrong but I guess that usable continuous power will be much lower close to 2kW at best (but this is still enough for standard e-bike). The biggest problem of this motor design is generally that it heated extremelly fast when the high torque is applied. And this is very typical for traction application. So this is the main reason why those motors are used mainly with propeller. Because in this application is demanded continuous power only with almost none high torque starts.

I am sure that cromotor and other similar design motors will be definitely better choice just because you can find many positive feedback from real life use.

Well, thankfully you along with most folks around here would be wrong, and this mindset had to be ignored in the design of this machine:
https://youtu.be/lGpx8-7-IXg

[youtube]lGpx8-7-IXg[/youtube]


It turns out that an otherwise identical but cro motored bike to this on the same track hits the 180deg c mark after having been lapped twice before the race end in a 10 lap final. the joby motor sits between 65-85deg c continuously -ie you can lap forever, in summer without additional cooling.

Both bikes are running around 10kw max power input, its about half of what the joby could take if fan cooled, and admittedly too much for a cro but the joby uses far less power to win vs the hub motor to come last, one hint as to what actually goes on is accelerating from a standstill, with a hub motor it takes most of the 10kw from the battery (only 2.5-3kw for the joby bike that accelerates at almost double the rate) and less than 2kw arrives at the tire, so yea a 12.5kg mass is great for absorbing 6-8kw of heat loss and giving you a larger power figure on the CA, but its not what im chasing.

And yea apologies for baiting you like that Pajda, hope you don't mind if i give the advice a miss :wink: its really just that the mentality here on ES makes it look like its going to be a loong time before we get enough competitive electrics in our own class of to race with us here in OZ and the problem we have now is getting banned, being asked to pull over before the final finish photos or knocked back at the checkover by grumpy-arsed and heavily branded scrutineers who are not fans of the electric revolution, so any advice on dealing with that i could really use..

 

[Pajda]

Thank you toolman2 for some real world data. I think it is exactly what macribs and others needs to know. But it all it does not conflict to what I write.

You are talking about 10kW max or average power from the battery? Or it is measured mechanical power output of the motor? I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong) that you draw ca 5-6kW average power from battery with a lot of 10kW peaks? That gives me equivalent of about 3-4kW mechanical power on the motor shaft which was the parameter I was talking about. (If you have acces to the dyno you can see that the average efficiency during this kind of driving cycle is only about 60% even for motor which can do 95% continuous efficiency under the nominal continuous load)

But the jobi is declared as 13,2kW continuous on the shaft and that is the parameter which I have problem to believe.

So to put my opinion absolutely clear, The Jobi or Hacker motor is most probably excellent motor for your (extreme power e-bike) aplication or even electric go-cart, but I was talking about different (twice or three times more power) app, so I am deeply sorry for the confusion

 

[macribs]

@Pajda I think you are looking so hard at the motor data sheets you getting blinded.
You are looking at continuous power and get locked in that number. I am not saying it is wrong, just saying that I don't think the continuous power is not really that important for e-bikes. Because in real world our driving in nearly never static, it is dynamic and varies according to terrain, traffic, surface and overall conditions. What I mean is that IRL we will be on/off hitting the throttle and seldom have long peak power draws.

Don't know if you seen Toolman2's videos? That is some impressing power he got there. I saw one a while back where he was riding at what looked like almost like a speedway track, and he was putting his electric joby bike in front of the pack, the other riders was in ICE bikes. 250cc and some on 450 cc iirc.

I don't know if toolman did harvest max peak power at that track but he was incredible fast.

The big difference seems to be that if he would have raced with a cro motor heat would have been a limiting factor. With his fast spinning Joby heat was not a problem. I never did see any close ups of Toolman's bike (sadly) so I don't know if he did alter the motor with fan(s) but still the amount of peak power from such a light weight motor is incredible. And the great thing about it, if for some reason power like that is not enough or motor is getting too hot you can always add another motor to the bike and still be lighter then a similar cromotor bike. But have more then twice the peak power (40 kw) of the cro and plenty of continuous power like 10+ kw without putting any stress on those motors. All that from 5.5 kilos of motors. Now that is hard to beat. 40 kw peak from a 5.5 kilos package. And the weight will be out of the rear wheel making for an even better handling and control.

Or you could just add a fan/blower type cooling mod. But not as extreme as riding a dual motored hi powered e-bike.

 

[bionicon]

If anybody is interrested, they have a new controller with 100 v components, the HST 450.... If its like the HST350 (350amps nominal)this would make 450amps at 100volt.......45kw continue?? :lol:
https://hacker-industrial-solutions.com/elektro-antriebssystem/hst-450-brushless-dc-controller/

 

[macribs]

If anyone got any teck spec on the new HST-450 controller pls share all that you know.

Man those guys at Hacker must be one of the weirdest bunch to ever set up shop. Hacker make great stuff, high quality products then goes to length to keep all valuable information to them self. Hacker got no working webshop, no technical data on several products. If you got any intentions to buy their products they force you into a detailed reply form, in which you never know if you will get any response to, ever. Belive me, I've tried before. So this I will sit out. If they don't make info public, they can keep their shit.

I really wonder how much money those guys could have made if they would operate like any normal business venture? Probably they would have people lining up to buy there products from all over the world. I could not find a single spec of data for the new Hacker HST 450 controller.

Hacker-industrial-solutions you guys need a marketing team, and one or more new members in your strategic team that have knowledge of how to put things to market . Or maybe you are intrigued by making shopping your products only for the stubborn few that bother jumping through all your hoops in order to gather enough info to make a buy.

 

[madin88]

Yes it is a pity they do not provide more details. It seems like Hacker only cooperates with large companies (check the HIS-Magazin Ausgabe Q1-2017).

hmm.. the new Herkules 5 controller looks nice

 

[macribs]

I only knows one that managed to score products from Hacker, and that is bionicon for his senda build.
At the very least they should putthat in writing on their webiste, that they will only do B2B and no B2C. Maybe even add a little MQO.


Very frustrating the way their website is today.

 

[bionicon]

Yes Macribs, and i did order my parts via my company , i am also in contact with Carl Kühn he is director of the industrie-department i understand. I send him a mail today for more information about the HST450, maybe i ask him or they only sell to company's.

 

[bionicon]

Have some information about the HST450 its for voltages up to 85volt and up to 25kw........price arround 2000 euro's