Are batteries more expensive than petrol?

[Hillhater]

You missed to bring up the resale value from the both systems.

Just take a look at these:

How many moving parts and points of failure you can see?
For the gas engine i have no clue (maybe 20 or 30 or 60?) but the DD hub i know its 2 bearings.
....

I'm playing Devils advocate here,...in the spirit of fair comparisons...
You seem to be comparing a 1kW electric motor to a 20kW ICE !...that's not apples to apples !
A more realistic ICE might be the Honda 90/110, Cub motor.
For a reliability comparison, you would need to include the controller, and battery system for the electric, (also the charger ?),...........and the fuel tank for the ICE.
How many (electronic) components are there , with potential to fail, in the Elec drive now ?
How often do we have threads about blown controllers, loose magnets, dead Hall sensors, and never mind all the battery pack and overheated windings issues.
What is the real life experience of DDHub electric systems reliability vs the known reliability of those small ICE bike motors ?
Just saying.... You are on a bad pitch to try and argue reliability for low power DD hubs verses proven ICE motors.
..There are better arguments for runing Electric.

 

[zener]

Yeah but the picture had also could be a HUB-Zilla or Cromotor....
They can deliver same power as the complicated inefficient ICE and look basically the same. (dont tell the cops)

To the Controller: there are new drives not yet for sale sadly. like the from Lebowsky which dont need Hall sensors and have few new protections which prevent blowing FETS even when dead shorted phase wires happen!

Also if you want a really fool proof reliable system build a 2WD.

Also dont buy cheapo RC lipo let them build localy from original 18650 cells.

Rework your cheap Chinese DDhub make extra glue the Magnets and Hall sensors like DocB. did in his new NYX build.


I assure you that electric drive systems can be wayyy more reliable than any ICE ever could be.(if done right)

 

[SaladFish]

I have done some calculations. I estimate that 8,000 watt hour is equivalent to 2.7L of petrol.

Cost per 100km electric: $7.73 (estimated)
Cost per 100km petrol (cbr125r): $3.90

This is excluding tyres ($1 per 100km) and other components that are either unforeseeable or would affect both electric and petrol powered motorcycle.

Does this look about right?

I could build a motorcycle with sub 1L/100km fuel economy. But that mean's I still need 1.6L worth of battery power to make 160km high way trip. More if I don't want to get stranded.

 

[SaladFish]

Yeah but the picture had also could be a HUB-Zilla or Cromotor....
They can deliver same power as the complicated inefficient ICE and look basically the same. (dont tell the cops)

To the Controller: there are new drives not yet for sale sadly. like the from Lebowsky which dont need Hall sensors and have few new protections which prevent blowing FETS even when dead shorted phase wires happen!

Also if you want a really fool proof reliable system build a 2WD.

Also dont buy cheapo RC lipo let them build localy from original 18650 cells.

Rework your cheap Chinese DDhub make extra glue the Magnets and Hall sensors like DocB. did in his new NYX build.


I assure you that electric drive systems can be wayyy more reliable than any ICE ever could be.(if done right)

Chassis construction would be simplified with a pair of hub motors but would they have acceptable efficiency?

 

[ScooterMan101]

SaladFish,

Where do you live in Australia ?

What will you be using the Motorcycle for , commuting everyday or ?
Any hills you will be riding up ?

Comparing the operating cost of any Japanese 125cc or 250cc , or 300cc motorcycle to anything else is fruitless.
The fact is , that those small efficient, lightweight motorcycles are the definition of efficiency,

A different option you could look at is, well depending on what you will be using if for, is to keep it as it is , and build/convert a bicycle and use the bicycle more often. then you have both your short range e-bike and your long range motorcycle for fasterspeeds.
If the 125cc motorcycle is paid for already then that would be a great option. ( I do this myself with my paid off 600cc supersport , I ride the 600cc supersport about once every 2 weeks, and use my e-scooter or e-bike 6 to 7 days a week.
It works out Great. The best of Both worlds .

Another option you can look into ,
Build an e-bicycle, meaning convert a bicycle to electric , then after you complete that.
Sell your 125cc bike and get a 600cc or 1000cc supersport bike as a rolling chassis. ( face it you would rather be on a 600-1000 cc size of motorcycle anyway )
Then the conversion is more in favor of a electric conversion.
You can sometimes find those larger MC's with blown out motors or worn out motors, on the cheep, look for a racer that has abused his Race Bike enough to buy as a rolling chassis,
or an impounded Suspersport then you can sell it's ICE and related parts.

Note you will have to replace a chain and front and rear sprocket at around 30,000 Km's regardless ...if it is running on Petrol or Electric.
With the larger and faster motorcycles you will save on the cost of adjusting the valves if you convert one of those to electric.

 

[SaladFish]

Newcastle, Australia. There are some hills where the cbr125r struggles.

I am considering a motor and batteries for recumbent motorcycle that features:
1) 110km cruising speed.
2) 146km trip to family (126km highway and 40km city). I'll need range more in case I make a wrong turn or batteries start losing their capacity.
3) Comfortable reclined seat.
4) Streamlined fairing for all weather protection and efficiency.
5) Light weight, as light as possible. Sub 60kg if possible.

It needs to pass engineers for registration. Electric power will have some advantages but I need to nail down the cost of batteries, motor, controller etc then compare it to petrol and see what is going to be the viable option.

I will keep cbr125r until the experimental motorcycle has proven itself as a better option.

 

[dogman dan]

I will agree that the CB 125 is not the most comfortable bike to take on trips 146 km long. But nothings going to work out much cheaper.
But for very short trips, say 10-20km, an electric bicycle can be. Trouble is, In AU that means a 250w bike.

Just another reason to stick with the CB IMO. But eventually adding a much larger, much more comfortable electric motorcycle would be very nice. Just not cheap.

It could work out cheapest, if those family trips are not that often, to rent a car for those trips.

 

[cwah]

Aren't motorcycle chain, brake pad, maintenance from wear and tear, insurance quite expensive if you do lots of miles?

I mean if you do like 20k miles per year, you need to change few times the chain and brakes and do regular checkup? Are these cheap?

I often see chain, sprockets, lub and other costing at least hundred quid or more? And if that happens few times a year easily add up and be costly?

 

[Green Machine]

imo electric power does not beat petrol economically yet....when you consider the price of the battery packs the deterioration of the packs...and if you factor in the x factor of what can go wrong with that pack.....if you are just concerned with saving a buck on a motorcycle stay with petrol.


i also think that electirc technology is quickly gaining and maybe in another year or two it will be more practical.

But right now nothing is as economical and practical as a little petrol bike for cheap transportation.

 

[sendler2112]

Aren't motorcycle chain, brake pad, maintenance from wear and tear, insurance quite expensive if you do lots of miles?

I mean if you do like 20k miles per year, you need to change few times the chain and brakes and do regular checkup? Are these cheap?

I often see chain, sprockets, lub and other costing at least hundred quid or more? And if that happens few times a year easily add up and be costly?

Again, this is not even close. Chains last 15,000 miles. I reused my sprockets since they were fine. 29,000 miles on my CBR250R with a lifetime of 93 mpgUS.
.

.
A CBR125R is even better on gas.
.
It has had 1 chain, 1 rear tire, the front tire is still on. 7 oil changes-$15 each, 3 valve adjustments- I did them myself. 2 air filters -$21. Brakes last 50,000?. Insurance is $200 per year and $50 for each additional bike.
.
Everyone here should have a small motorcycle in addition to their ebike for longer/ faster trips. And start complaining about big cars instead of motorcycles.

 

[SaladFish]

Aren't motorcycle chain, brake pad, maintenance from wear and tear, insurance quite expensive if you do lots of miles?

I mean if you do like 20k miles per year, you need to change few times the chain and brakes and do regular checkup? Are these cheap?

I often see chain, sprockets, lub and other costing at least hundred quid or more? And if that happens few times a year easily add up and be costly?

CBR125R parts are inexpensive.
My insurance is per year, it does not matter the distance traveled.
20k miles is a lot, I ride about 5k miles per year and do my own maintenance which is cheap.
Yes but I would change chain, sprockets less than every 15,000 miles so it does not seem to be affordable.

Get a 1000cc motorcycle or a discontinued motorcycle and you'd be paying a lot more. Pay for a mechanic and you'll be throwing away lots of money. But these bikes are for people with money to throw away.

 

[Punx0r]

Your requirements appear to be:

Lightweight
Comfortable
Long range
Inexpensive

Generally in life you can have only two of those things at once for any product/device/thing.

 

[zener]

I have done some calculations. I estimate that 8,000 watt hour is equivalent to 2.7L of petrol.

Cost per 100km electric: $7.73 (estimated)
Cost per 100km petrol (cbr125r): $3.90

This is excluding tyres ($1 per 100km) and other components that are either unforeseeable or would affect both electric and petrol powered motorcycle.

Does this look about right?

I could build a motorcycle with sub 1L/100km fuel economy. But that mean's I still need 1.6L worth of battery power to make 160km high way trip. More if I don't want to get stranded.

Your assumptions are totaly wrong.
Think of a Liion battery as a living thing. It needs care and a good constant environment to serve you for long.
500 cycles than end. LOL seriously?
You can get >2000 cycles of about 70%-75% capacity cycles from modern 18650 cells. if you build the battery bigger than you actually need. But only if you dont put stress on the cells like too high discharge and charge or temperatures.
Also if your battery reached its usable end of live for your EV. It still can be used for other low discharge applications.
Search for Tesla Powerwall they use also 18650 cells and read the specifications for how long they hold.

 

[Voltron]

All the calculations here are missing a giant factor. They all seem based on the price at the pump of gas. In the US anyways, we pay giant amounts that don't show up at the pump... Billions in tax breaks for already highly profitable corporations, billions in environmental clean up costs that are dodged by those same corporations, polluted groundwater that gets cleaned up with tax dollars, the health costs of toxic inner cities, the higher price for renewables .. the list goes on and on, making the real price of a gallon of gas by the time all the damage it has done on its way to the pump, and the consequences afterward are factored in be much higher than the price you see as you're filling up.

 

[zener]

Aren't motorcycle chain, brake pad, maintenance from wear and tear, insurance quite expensive if you do lots of miles?

I mean if you do like 20k miles per year, you need to change few times the chain and brakes and do regular checkup? Are these cheap?

I often see chain, sprockets, lub and other costing at least hundred quid or more? And if that happens few times a year easily add up and be costly?

CBR125R parts are inexpensive.
My insurance is per year, it does not matter the distance traveled.
20k miles is a lot, I ride about 5k miles per year and do my own maintenance which is cheap.
Yes but I would change chain, sprockets less than every 15,000 miles so it does not seem to be affordable.

Get a 1000cc motorcycle or a discontinued motorcycle and you'd be paying a lot more. Pay for a mechanic and you'll be throwing away lots of money. But these bikes are for people with money to throw away.

What if your CBR125R bike motor has a hidden fabrication failure that leads to a total loss after a few 1000 miles ?

 

[liveforphysics]

Get a 1000cc motorcycle or a discontinued motorcycle and you'd be paying a lot more. Pay for a mechanic and you'll be throwing away lots of money. But these bikes are for people with money to throw away.

Where as each breath of human survivable atmosphere was gift, so it's not a concern to throw it away for yourself, your family, your children, and a few billion more folks.

When the last river and ocean are poisoned, when the last forest is cut down, and then the atmosphere becomes too poisoned to support mammal life, only then will some folks realize they can't survive on money.

ATB,
-Luke

 

[agniusm]

You r wrong, then Elizeum will happen and poor folks will stay to suffocate. Sounds kinda irony but a lot of sci-fi comes to life in our age.

 

[ccmdr]

Being in the UK commuting on an EV is cheaper.

Daily work and back for the past 8 months has been 50 miles daily. KTM 690 Enduro R in sumo outfit with low speed high torque grin factor would cost £1161.27 annually just in fuel. Another £614 in Tyres/Pads/Oil/Filter/Chain/Sprockets/Valve Shims/Wheel bearings/Brake Piston seals thats just parts as I do the work myself. Another £273 for insurance. £86 TAX. £60 breakdown cover. All up £2193.27!!! I know the CBR125R owned and clocked 31,000 miles in two years, if your gunning it everywhere check your clutch plates and the radiator likes to corrode after aroung 28,000 miles (use ACF50 frequently), the hose from the pump cracked too. Good bike tbh if you leave it stock.

Now get yourself some A123 20ah, vector frame, adaptto and a cromotor/QS and you have yourself a massive torque E Grin with 40+ speeds. 11p per 1kW fast charge at home and free charging at work . The first year will look bad, a heavy hit in one go as opposed to sneakily trickling out like ICE, however it still works out cheaper.

The 2nd year well now your talking, batteries/frame/controller/farkles etc... now paid for!!
So i.e. 63.3Wh/mile @ 40 mph with UK rate of 11p per kW = 15.7 miles
thats 0.007p per mile
32,000 miles = £224
How far can your CBR get on £224?

Also, the figures you give are for a battery build, why didn't you include how much the ICE costs?

FYI a few things to consider an ebike or building your own e-moto:

-My commute time only increased by just over 10 minutes, because its your average speed that counts, even with doing 'occasional' highs of 90mph on the KTM!
-Your not in the petrol station every couple of days and I rarely have to carry money/card/wallet! Home-charge/Work-charge no money exchanging .
-The torque these DIY bikes can kick out is great, no real waiting for the 'power band' to kick in. 125cc 'cough'.
-Any 125 rider will remember drafting being vans or trucks to maintain that 60-70MPH, works with EV too! Bit loony and I know the preachers out there wont like it, but I find it fun 'hunting' vans and lorries and getting to 50-60MPH and using only 8-12 Amps.
-Its damn satisfying building your own ebike, if something is rubbish or breaks it's your own fault and you learn and fix it .
-Damn reliable, only running issue so far is 1 flat tyre before I switched to moto 24". Oh and a A123 20ah cell puffed (2nd hand welded tab...).
-Running costs are minimal to none. Occasional tyre, maybe pads if regen isn't used too much, possibly fork oil.
-The bigger AH the pack the more battery friendly, running lower C ratings at both charge and discharge which will, depending on your DOD and ROC, make your pack last a very long time! 2 charges daily 365 days a year worst case and very hardcore would at 3000 cycles last just over 4 years!!

Topic should be changed to:
Are batteries cheaper than an ICE
or
Is Petrol cheaper than electricity

 

[Chalo]

.. the list goes on and on, making the real price of a gallon of gas by the time all the damage it has done on its way to the pump, and the consequences afterward are factored in be much higher than the price you see as you're filling up.

The same goes for the lignite coal most of us use when we plug something into the wall. However, we have the opportunity to fix that problem and still go on plugging things into the wall like before.

 

[Voltron]

There's something we agree on.

 

[heathyoung]

Newcastle - interesting, another Novocastrian here...

I'm running around on a Vectrix that's been converted to Lithium here - its about equivalent to a 450cc or so. Costs bugger-all to run, and is quite comfortable. Its used for commuting to work (~30K round trip) and uses about 13Ah (under 2Kwh - or about 1.5c per klm). I always shudder when I have to put $20 worth of petrol in the car, simply because I know that would get me close to 1,300Klms on the bike as electricity, rather than the 150Klms I get in the car.

If you are doing highway runs, you need some serious capacity. At 100Kph I'm burning about 8Kw continuously for a faired maxi-scooter. The leaf conversion (19 X 0.5Kwh cells = 9.5Kwh) would just make 120Klm or so - at dead flat.

An unfaired bike will be considerably less efficient on the highway.

 

[Lurkin]

Also need to factor in:

- charge for time spent filling bike vs plugging in. I hate petrol stations with a passion and the waits a pain when your in a rush. Need to charge for this time.
- charge for smelling petrol fumes at station
- charge for complexity of servicing
- charge for damaging the environment, including your own health and societies
- charge for offending my nostrils with the crap spewed out the back of your motorbike and as for every other human being, animal or plant, who would have to experience it as well
- charge for using limited resources
- charge for noise
- charge for inability to park in the house with female detection due to oil marks/stench
- charge for time spent sourcing non generic parts in the event of part failure
- charge for depreciation of vehicle
- charges for engineering and registration
- charges for having hands on experience about getting educated about a better way of life vs remaining a petrol head
- charge for interesting conversation starter with non ebike people. Most people are actually a little fascinated
- charge for no ev grin
- charge for not being able to ride around the inside of the supermarket picking up your groceries
- charge for not being able to park inside wherever you want, malls, work etc.

 

[Warren]

Back in July/August, I built up a recumbent cargo bike with seven Leaf modules, a 4080 Crown motor, BMS and 60 amp controller. The Leaf modules aren't light at 61 pounds (130 pound bike), but it will roll along at 25-30mph for 100 miles, 150 miles if you keep it below 25mph average. Now Hybrid Auto is offering similar packs, some for golf karts!

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=101&name=lithium-ion-pack-of-7-battery-modules-60ah-58-8v-nissan-leaf&Itemid=605

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=18&name=golf-cart-battery-packs-and-related-components&Itemid=605

These batteries are still not cheap, but not bad at under $300/kWh.

 

[Punx0r]

Interesting. Are those new cells? I thought only salvage ones were on the open market but it'd be nice to see some new ones.

 

[Warren]

These are all salvaged. Mine came from a 2013 Leaf. I doubt Nissan is selling modules to anybody. Even a Leaf owner must turn in their old pack to get a new one.