Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Going back to the ebike topic, I've been pulled over a few times recently.

No action, but some cops in my area are starting to take an interest it seems.

Also, they seem to notice more at night, but maybe they notice me because my front light is super bright? 7x Cree LEDs, probably about 2000 LM.
 
its getting to the point of no return, either the populace gets on board in massive number over the next year or 2, otherwise i see them coming to an end due to the money put into politicians pockets by big oil. it really is going the way of if we dont pay to do it, we cant.
 
daddz said:
its getting to the point of no return, either the populace gets on board in massive number over the next year or 2, otherwise i see them coming to an end due to the money put into politicians pockets by big oil. it really is going the way of if we dont pay to do it, we cant.
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I fear this is unfortunately accurate.
I've tried contacting politicians...no luck there.
Numbers is the only remaining option.
To get that happening, the next thing is to get the media on board to drum up those numbers.
Anyone got any idea's or contacts in the media?

Cheers
 
call me a pessimist but i cant see anything changing, except for the worse. i get thumbs up from kids all around the town, but they are to young to make things change yet. i read another thread today about a kickstarter program from for ES members, maybe that kickstarter should be to get funding to advertise the advantages of ebikin through media outlets worldwide??
 
daddz said:
maybe that kickstarter should be to get funding to advertise the advantages of ebikin through media outlets worldwide??
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Now there's an idea worth pursuing.

I would not have the time to set one up, but I would be wiling to contribute to such a campaign. It's a long shot, but any takers for setting such a media campaign and kickstarter funding program up?

Cheers
 
If there's a push for more people to cycle on e-bikes, then Australian cycling attitudes need to change in NSW to remove the need to pedal and to open the way for some of the bikes that were banned post-2009 even though they complied with power and weight guidelines. At the moment, e-bike promotion is only for people who cycle anyway. While that remains the situation, then ebike use will remain low as most cyclists dont support ebikes.

David
 
What needs to change is infrastructure. Separate bikes and cars from each other.

There's a lot of bike paths in my area, and over the last 5 years, I've seen a massive increase in bikes in general, and electric bikes in particular. The first eBike I got, everyone stopped and asked me about it. I was the only electric I saw about about 6 months. Now every 4th bike on the path is electric, and I see them every single day without fail.

That said, I'm very close to the Macquarie Park business district which is very cycle friendly, 5km from North Sydney, a major business district and 10km from the city, so if there is anywhere in Sydney that is ideal for bikes/electric bikes, this is it.

That said, I'm helping a friend buy an electric for a 35km round trip. He wants a 45km/h+ bike to do the trip in under an hour, but I've convinced him to try a nearly legal one first, using an oversized motor, then if he wants to go faster, it's just a matter of changing the controller, and any compliance is on his head.
 
Sunder, it's not just Sydney.
Like you, when I first got my Fighter in 2011, I was living in Sydney at the time. I was lucky to see another E-Bike once a week on my commute from Hurlstone Park to Ryde and back each day.

Now living in Canberra in 2015, I see 5-10 Ebikes on my 50km round trip every day. It's nuts, but unfortunately the majority of them are cheap and nasty or bog standard offerings. What I'm saying is, I don't think it's limited to your area...E-Bikes are gaining in popularity massively...everywhere.

The growth is so pronounced, I'm going to be starting an E-Bike building hobby business in Canberra's south soon as there is nothing else dedicated in the area currently.

Cheers
 
I think its obvious that ebikes are going to be treated the same as ICE motors (banned in Qld since 2007), but you still see them occasionally, in that if its obvious to authorities/governments that lots of ebike users are on bikes way over the legal power limits they will simply ban them all. I have been on my 200w elationV2 for nearly 6 years now and have just bought a 250w BEWO mid -drive and am quite happy to work within the legal boundaries. Once there are a few accidents with hi powered bikes over the legal limits they will probably just make them all illegal. Problem solved for the govts. :(
 
gibbo111 said:
I think its obvious that ebikes are going to be treated the same as ICE motors (banned in Qld since 2007)
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Kids that lose their license and have to ride a bike to work aren't limited to non-government workers - Posties use E-bikes too, especially those without a motorbike license, but the odd one that loses their license too. I' told that it was government purchasing of Pedalecs that led to them needing to change the laws in a hurry.. Since none of them complied with the legislation.

The bigger danger probably is that the PAPCs' might be banned, rather than the Pedelec's which would make it difficult to make your own bike here, as there's no simple way to convert a bicycle into a compliant EN15194 Pedelec. It also constrains our freedoms to make our own bikes, but generally, it's unlikely they'll be banned outright as the government does purchase and use ebikes regularly.

What probably will happen is that the police will just be asked to police it - And they'll have to buy a dyno and come up with a way of fining people who exceed the limit rather than charging them with driving an unlicensed motor vehicle. Or they'll just impose blanket speed limits on all cyclists, regardless of propulsion measure.

I guess the problems are going to come, but I'm not sure what solution they will choose. Eventually they will have to do something about it. Even if it's just enforcing the laws as they are now.

Regards
David.
 
cj7hawk said:
What probably will happen is that the police will just be asked to police it - And they'll have to buy a dyno and come up with a way of fining people who exceed the limit
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A dyno alone can't tell you if a bike is EN15194 compliant.

They'd need to bring it to a lab, as thermal stability is one of the key inputs of the power limit test. If you can't control temp and thermal effects like wind, the dyno results are invalid.
 
cj7hawk said:
gibbo111 said:
I think its obvious that ebikes are going to be treated the same as ICE motors (banned in Qld since 2007)
Click to expand...

Kids that lose their license and have to ride a bike to work aren't limited to non-government workers - Posties use E-bikes too, especially those without a motorbike license, but the odd one that loses their license too. I' told that it was government purchasing of Pedalecs that led to them needing to change the laws in a hurry.. Since none of them complied with the legislation.
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One of the reasons the AUPost use ebikes is because they can save on the $600ish dollar a year registration of the bike vs a motorcycle, thats what a Tas postie told me.

I have a relative that was banned from driving for 10 years in NSW about 10 years ago now, I told him about ebikes and he quickly responded that he can't touch anything with a motor. I think the judge that handed him is sentence may of foresaw he could jump on a ICE bike etc and stipulated anything with a motor ruling to deny him those as well.

I live near Chapel Street so I ride and eat out along there a fair bit.

When I had a cop stop and slowly walk around my ebike locked up on Chapel St while I was watching from a cafe inside and then while stopped at lights have another cop in a squad car eyeball my em3ev frame bag and kind of have a peeved snear look at me I decided to get rid of it triangle frame bag and go with a triangle frame bottle style battery so they can see through my frame and draw less attention.

I don't know why its a cop eye magnet but I really do believe it is, chapel st is a bit of a fukhead magnet so I can't help but think they have had some kind of experience with it before. I also only have a pedal assist setup, got rid of thumb throttle long time ago now, looking back I think thub throttle is kind of gay, would probably want it for an offroad bike though.
 
Sunder said:
cj7hawk said:
What probably will happen is that the police will just be asked to police it - And they'll have to buy a dyno and come up with a way of fining people who exceed the limit
Click to expand...

A dyno alone can't tell you if a bike is EN15194 compliant.

They'd need to bring it to a lab, as thermal stability is one of the key inputs of the power limit test. If you can't control temp and thermal effects like wind, the dyno results are invalid.
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Not quite - You can just ride it 20 meters after warming it up at 80% power for 5 minutes and measure it as per the alternative tests, or you can put it on a dyno and allow for losses as part of the standard. There's more than one way to skin that cat - :) These tests can be done out in the field, on a test-bench or even on a bicycle stand without the bicycle moving. They even allow for wind up to 3m/s ( around 10 kph ! )

It's covered under section EN15194 section 4.2.7.2 and schedule D. That would be a fairly easy way to demonstrate that a bicycle is not compliant even without a dyno.

And in any case, even if a dyno test by itself showed that it was putting out more than 250w, you'd still be hard pressed to argue otherwise unless you could demonstrate through testing that you did comply with 4.2.7.1 or 4.2.7.2 - And the onus would then be on the cyclist to prove compliance... Again, if it was close, perhaps possible, but anyone deliberately flouting the rules would find themselves caught out pretty quickly.

If a bike is close to the limit, but over, I doubt there's much that would/could be done. If it's significantly over though, any of the tests would easily catch it out - or to put another way, you might get away with 270w and a bike that does about 28kph. You won't get away with 500w and 35 kph - and it wouldn't take the police long to figure out how to prosecute if it did become an issue.

And in any event, the test procedure is only at design - they don't test each bicycle, and the way the laws are written does not allow someone to easily claim that the manufacturing tolerance failure exempts them from the law. I already spoke to people involved in policing these kinds of issues and they're well aware of fake labels on many bicycles supposedly in compliance with EN15194.

So to that extent, a dyno could tell you whether it was legal - what remains to be seen is whether proof of EN15194 compliance is a valid defense. ( I suspect it would be ).

Regards
David.
 
There's no way of testing the power of the motor since the requirement is for the "maximum continuous rated power" of the motor to be 250w. "Rated" is the key word. The standards for rating apply to overrating, not underrating. Rating is a bit nebulous, especially for an electric bicycle motor, which has a wide range of operation speed and external conditions.
 
d8veh said:
There's no way of testing the power of the motor since the requirement is for the "maximum continuous rated power" of the motor to be 250w. "Rated" is the key word. The standards for rating apply to overrating, not underrating. Rating is a bit nebulous, especially for an electric bicycle motor, which has a wide range of operation speed and external conditions.
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Hmmm, I think you're confused there - It's not just about "rated" - It's also about what it's actually producing, and you can measure it at the wheel or at the motor, with appropriate consideration to drivetrain losses. The standard covers the aspects of e-bikes a little better than you may think and it's also not as laboratory-specific as you might imagine, but does allow field-testing of bicycles including allowing for wind. What you're referring to is EN60034-1 which is used for measuring the power of rotating electrical machines. That's one way, but what the standard is doing there is stating that if you measure the power this way, you have to do it when the motor reaches thermal equilibrium. That's more about making sure people don't stick a 75W motor on a bike, double the voltage and call it a 250W motor. On the other hand, installing a 1kW motor and down-rating it to meet the standard would be just fine.

Maximum continuous rated power means something completely different - Max power is section 4.2.7 but continuous power is covered under Annex B, which provides examples about how power can exceed the maximum continuous rated power, but will have to drop off to zero as you approach maximum speed for which the motor provides assistance ( 4.2.6 ). This is all covered under Power Management ( 4.2.4 )

From what I've seen, most legislation just refers to the maximum power. All pedelec's have to be marked with the power output and the maximum speed - And it's probably the maximum speed that will cause most people to come astray if they're not compliant. If the maximum speed is 25kph, and your bike still produces any power at 28.875kph, then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on - Tests like that don't even require a dyno. Also, if that maximum speed isn't marked, then it's not a Pedelec ( or EPAC as they call it ) and isn't legal... Instant "motorcycle" rating for any unlabeled bicycles.

Worse, if your speed is marked as more than 25kph, then you're likely already in breach in some states.

The EN15194 standard is worth reading if you're considering building a compliant bicycle - It's not that difficult to meet the requirements, though the radiation-testing section is probably going to be expensive. Easier to get a bike in which the ESA's are already tested, compliant and marked. If you are considering making an EN15194 compliant bicycle, or including components on an EN15194 bicycle ( like I am ) then it's really important to comply with the standard. As long as you could demonstrate you tested any ESAs to conform to the main requirements for power, then you're pretty safe.

Regards
David
 
TheBeastie said:
cj7hawk said:
gibbo111 said:
I think its obvious that ebikes are going to be treated the same as ICE motors (banned in Qld since 2007)
Click to expand...

Kids that lose their license and have to ride a bike to work aren't limited to non-government workers - Posties use E-bikes too, especially those without a motorbike license, but the odd one that loses their license too. I' told that it was government purchasing of Pedalecs that led to them needing to change the laws in a hurry.. Since none of them complied with the legislation.
Click to expand...
One of the reasons the AUPost use ebikes is because they can save on the $600ish dollar a year registration of the bike vs a motorcycle, thats what a Tas postie told me.

I have a relative that was banned from driving for 10 years in NSW about 10 years ago now, I told him about ebikes and he quickly responded that he can't touch anything with a motor. I think the judge that handed him is sentence may of foresaw he could jump on a ICE bike etc and stipulated anything with a motor ruling to deny him those as well.

I live near Chapel Street so I ride and eat out along there a fair bit.

When I had a cop stop and slowly walk around my ebike locked up on Chapel St while I was watching from a cafe inside and then while stopped at lights have another cop in a squad car eyeball my em3ev frame bag and kind of have a peeved snear look at me I decided to get rid of it triangle frame bag and go with a triangle frame bottle style battery so they can see through my frame and draw less attention.

I don't know why its a cop eye magnet but I really do believe it is, chapel st is a bit of a fukhead magnet so I can't help but think they have had some kind of experience with it before. I also only have a pedal assist setup, got rid of thumb throttle long time ago now, looking back I think thub throttle is kind of gay, would probably want it for an offroad bike though.
Click to expand...

You know, being a cop can be kind of boring - so hopefully they just think your bike is cool :) I think purpose-built electric bikes are generally something most cops would find interesting too. Like exotic cars. Hopefully his peeved sneer was indicative that he wished he had such a bike :wink:

Registration? Yes, that makes sense... I had heard of posties losing their license and being put on pushbikes, but registration makes a lot of sense -

David
 
cj7hawk said:
Hmmm, I think you're confused there - It's not just about "rated" - It's also about what it's actually producing, and you can measure it at the wheel or at the motor, with appropriate consideration to drivetrain losses. The standard covers the aspects of e-bikes a little better than you may think and it's also not as laboratory-specific as you might imagine, but does allow field-testing of bicycles including allowing for wind. What you're referring to is EN60034-1 which is used for measuring the power of rotating electrical machines.
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Are you using the 2005 version, or the 2009 version? I lost my legal copy when I reinstalled my computer, and I can't seem to log back into BSI to download another copy, so I don't have the wording in front of me, but from memory, you're either wrong again, or using the wrong version. The 2005 version isn't recognised in Australia.

d8veh is right. It's all about rated power now, not produced power. That's why the test methodology says you need to determine the thermal stability point. It considers an motor rated for 250W, if it is thermally stable for an hour at or below 250w, but not at 251w. Therefore, it is possible to specifically design a controller that will either use temperature sensors, or a plain algorithm to put out much higher powers for shorter periods.

I'm not going to start another argument with you over this. We already know how obstinate and how creative you can be in interpreting ambiguous statements, but trust us - the 2009 edition, which is legally recognised in Australia is about rated power, not produced power.
 
Okay, this time I do have to apologise. It was my reading of the document that was dodgy. (Bearing in mind that it was months ago since I last had access to a copy)

The statement was made that the measurement is to be taken WHEN the motor is at thermal equilibrium, not what power is required to obtain thermal equilibrium.
 
Sunder said:
The statement was made that the measurement is to be taken WHEN the motor is at thermal equilibrium, not what power is required to obtain thermal equilibrium.
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Thermal equilibrium at which speed?
 
d8veh said:
Sunder said:
The statement was made that the measurement is to be taken WHEN the motor is at thermal equilibrium, not what power is required to obtain thermal equilibrium.
Click to expand...

Thermal equilibrium at which speed?
Click to expand...

Thermal equilibrium as defined by the manufacturer, which is probably the temperature it gets to when run continuously at the stated maximum power output. Probably when it's around 250w, they just measure the temperature and say "That's it, that's the conditions under which we measure it. Temperature must be below that".... It's kind of arbitrary.

The speed can vary depending on load, but it's still pretty much the maximum speed that the bike can maintain when the propulsion is coming entirely from the motor. eg, put the bike into neutral or the lowest gear and pedal slower than the wheel is going so that the motor is providing all the power. It will reach a top speed based on the maximum power it can put out, but it will be ( must be ) slower than 25 kph. Typically around 19 kph.

However, given that 250w can usually push a bicycle past 25kph, that's not a great test, so would require additional loading, as though climbing a gradient.

Because of this, the cut-out speed is probably more important than the maximum continuous rated power, but given the wording from states such as NSW in guidance on pedalecs, I suspect that whatever power they could get to come out of the bike continuously, however they did it, would be what they'd consider the maximum power, given that the power is mentioned both in legislation and in the standard. From the way it was worded, it looks like they anticipated that people might try to overpower bikes - even while claiming conformance to the standard. In speaking to the local WA DoT, they certainly did express that opinion.

There are EN15194 dyno's that they use to test compliance - eg,
http://www.maturo-gmbh.de/produkte.php?lang=e&k=Rollenpruefstaende

Reading through, they all seem to follow the logic of 250w maximum power. So for this, if the bicycle can exceed 250w continuously, it's probably regarded as a fail. However it might be possible to argue otherwise if strict compliance with the standard was maintained and demonstrable... So that's probably at any speed at which the output could be maintained.

Regards
David
 
Just an update - WA has now changed it's laws to allow 250w Pedelec's in WA, however, it's also gone and put a 250w maximum output on the laws, without reference to the standard, so it's quite likely that some Pedelecs wouldn't actually comply under the law even though they may comply with EN15194.

The challenge for WA now with the way the law is written, it seems, is either the 250w means "Continuous power" in which case, the same also applies to 200w PAPCs. Or it means "Maximum power" in which case any EPAC or Pedelec which has a peak-power over 250w would not comply. That uncertainly has not yet been resolved, and was confirmed by DoT, so it might take the courts to work out which way that is going to fall. Either PAPCs just got a boost, or Pedelecs just got knobbled.

Additionally, choice of powerplant is still supported, with 200w in PAPCs, and 250w if the bicycle otherwise complies with EN15194. This includes petrol powered Pedelec's. ( I've had that evaluated and confirmed by the WA DoT also).

Regards
David.
 
from memory in nsw, the new rule is for continuos ( not maximum) of 250watts, equates to approx 750watts maximum,
though they dont state the maximum in the regulations.
 
old rule : 200watt maximum ( equates to approx 130watt continuous)
new rule : 250watt continuous ( equates to approx 750watt max)
both rules still apply just to confuse things a bit more
old rule used maximum power ( 200watt), new rule uses continuous power ( 250watt)
The regulators did eventually work out the difference between continous and max ( peak power)
 
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