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Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

hmmmm this is interesting.... Can't get your link to work at the moment... but I am specifically interested in what is meant by

adrian_sm said:
...and a battery that can handle a short of the main battery terminals.
Click to expand...

Wonder where the "main battery terminals" are located... eg I have all my e-bikes fused downline, post "battery connection"... IE the fuse sits between battery and cntroller, but the batteries themselves are not fused (though at least on the pings the BMS would probably act as one :))

Not hard to shift a fuse back further between battery connection to controller, and I guess that would make sense as the "punter accessible" battery connectors could be described as the battery's terminals to all intents and purposes.

just as an aside I sure as heck would like to see the "certification process" in place as some of the shite wiring I have come across on "commercial" builds is in my opinion, just that... sure looks pretty when covered with plastic but once you start pulling apart the guts... *shiver*

Joe
 
Again these are all written for commercial ebikes remember so the expectation is of a battery that can handle being roughly treated both physically and electrically, so there are words to that effect in EN15194. Check out section 4.2.2

- Adrian
 
Yah... Personally, that's a good thing... I actually reckon I could play touch rugby with my battery packs n bags... haven't had a major stack yet on an e-bike, but a stack is a stack and I reckon the battery pack has to be able to withstand being ripped off the bike and bounced down the road... personal opinion though n would rather have that in place when selling to a novice.

Joe.
 
when the australian authorities were contemplating what to do about power levels, one paper they put out mentioned that the 200watt peak power limit was equivalent to a continuous power level of 130watts. They never went into any details of how they established a relationship between peak and continuous power levels ( but there will be some definition for this). But you can use it to get an estimate of equivalent peak power of 250watts continuous. 130watt ( cont. ) : 200watt ( peak) equivalent ratio is
13:20, bit of maths gives
250watt ( cont ): "x" watt ( peak ) 13/20=250/x .......20/13: x/250........x=250times20/13.........x=385watts peak
( assuming theres a linear relationship between cont. and peak power.......but pretty sure it wont be linear, I think its an underestimate)
The supreme court ruling in nsw on the easyride mopeds they spent almost 2 years trying to prove the power of the moped was over 200watt ( peak ), if the controller was stock standard 48v 18amp it would have been simple maths, my guess is the controller had been adjusted to lower power level.
Its an example of how seriously the authorities will take any law cases involving ebikes, they must have spent a huge sum of money on that case, having a defintion of the equivalent peak power in my view is absolutely necessary for ebike retailers to keep themselves out of trouble. Easyride bikes closed up shop when the supreme court case was lost. The authorities have done it once, thrown a huge amount of resources into, they would certainly do it again.
Its still very much a risk to be in the ebike business in australia. Since easyride bikes was a supplier of many ebike retailers around australia the knock-on effects were huge ( I heard second hand of one surfers paradise ebike retailer at that time that was being supplied by easyride bikes may have lost their house due to the court case).
The authorities being unable to establish clearly the mopeds were over 200watts, had to change their strategy to win the case, so it came down to whether the moped was designed as pedal powered or designed for motor power and pedals were an add-on simply to make it road legal. Which was pretty obvious the pedals were add-ons .
I think these power limits are only a major concern for ebike retailers, not too much to worry about just as a diy ebiker I think, as long as it doesn't look like a moped.
To limit a controllers peak power you can only do it if you know what the peak power limit is! You cant adjust a controller to a continous power limit.
It will be interesting to see what happens if three wheelers with pedals and motors become more common.
 
this thread discusses peak and continous power
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/35208-Lies-Damn-Lies-and-Horsepower-Ratings
 
@whatever, It really doesn't matter how we define or interpret the max/peak/continuous power it only matters what the laws/standards say.

The old Oz 200w ebike definition only refers to "a maximum ungoverned and continuous rated power output of 200
watts or less" no mention of peak output powers. Pretty dodgy definition open to rorting by people/companies willing to rate the motor to meet the definition, but then run it harder. This is pretty lame, and possibly why the Easyride prosecutors changed tactics.

The new EN15194 definition again refers to the rated power of the motor, which is up to the motor manufacturer to test at a specified power/speed and then they slap a label on to say it reaches thermal equilibrium and wont blow up at those conditions. The only actual output power measurement conducted on the bike under load is the Annex D test. This will just average out the power for a 20m take off scenario, which can hide the actual max power by just controlling the acceleration rate in the controller like the old soft start controllers. So again does not limit peak power.
 
gtadmin said:
megacycle said:
...
I would be in the city centre from Happy Valley in 2 hours@ that, sure id be totally bugged though :?
Click to expand...
... and how long to get back :!:
Click to expand...

About 25 minutes if i got picked up :D
Reckon id be dead if i tried walking back at all, up to the big hill to the Reservoir.
 
So with bldcs, Im reading dont take them
past 2-2.5 x continuous current
Is that to protect the magnets ?
 
Man critical after motorised pushbike crash
The West Australian
October 26, 2012, 8:39 am

A 31-year-old man is on life support after he crashed his motorised pushbike in Karawara last night.

Police spokesman Gerry Cassidy said the man was on his way to his Booragoon home when the mountain bike, which had a petrol motor attached, hit a tree on Jackson Road about 9pm.

He said the cyclist, who was found by a passerby on the edge of the road, had not been wearing a helmet.

It appeared he had struck his head on the road.

The man was taken to Royal Perth Hospital, where he is in a critical condition.

Sgt Cassidy said such motorised pushbikes were illegal.

Follow thewest.com.au on Twitter
Sponsored Links
 
Rodney64 said:
Man critical after motorised pushbike crash
The West Australian
October 26, 2012, 8:39 am

A 31-year-old man is on life support after he crashed his motorised pushbike in Karawara last night.

Police spokesman Gerry Cassidy said the man was on his way to his Booragoon home when the mountain bike, which had a petrol motor attached, hit a tree on Jackson Road about 9pm.

He said the cyclist, who was found by a passerby on the edge of the road, had not been wearing a helmet.

It appeared he had struck his head on the road.

The man was taken to Royal Perth Hospital, where he is in a critical condition.

Sgt Cassidy said such motorised pushbikes were illegal.

Follow thewest.com.au on Twitter
Sponsored Links
Click to expand...


damn, that sucks. never like to hear about someone getting hurt. though its hard to feel allot of sympathy since he wasn't wearing a helmet... (just waiting now for the usa/uk anti helmet guys to argue this point :p !!) gotta wonder too, given the time/day whether he had had a few... hope he recovers anyway. also hope it doesn't cause a crackdown/change of laws.
 
@adrian
the old definition had the work 'maximum' in it, which meant peak power output, as was established in the nsw court case, they finally changed the defintion to continous output power of 250watts, the old definiton was 130watts continuos output or 200watts maximum output. That was the big problem as most countries use continuos output power ( not maximum) to define the motor power. Some states in usa are using maximum output power but its quite large ( 1kw in some)
Its only important if your a retailer, most controllers have 3 speed settings, lower speed setting could be used if asked to do distance test by the boys in blue.
Well placed mircroswitch could be used to change speed setting, or could do via shunt to limit max amps.
 
Just to be clear, the link I had in my previous post is to the current 200w definition, which is for continuous not peak power, which came into effect on 21st April 2010. So the current definition is for 200w continuous power, not peak.

The new EN15194 250w definition does not replace the old definition, but runs in parallel.

I have never seen 130w continuous mentioned anywhere, only the outdated 200w max definition, that has been revoked.

Finally not only retailers, but distributors, developers, manufactureres etc, will all care about the definition if they value there businesses.
 
I have to disagree with you with adrian that the old definition hasn't changed because it contains the word "maximum" in it,
maximum means peak.
"a MAXIMUM ungoverned and continuous rated power output of 200watts or less"
The 130watt continous was mentioned in one of the papers put out by the people deciding the new rule.
I cant see how they can have two different rules running at same time, I would just ignore the old definition and go with the new one they copied from european defintion.
My guesstimate is that the new rule of 250watt cont. will be about 750watts peak. On a 48v 18amp ebike ( about the norm for 48v ebikes) and 80% efficient motor
( brushless gearles) peak power would be P=52v*18amp*0.8(eff) = 748.8watts........so it would suit most ebikes already on the road. They would determine peak power using max. voltage of pack, so I used about 52v instead of 48v nominal.
 
The peak might be well over 1000W, but you'd be Smokin very soon :mrgreen:
 
t3sla said:
Don't forget the whole PAS element
Click to expand...
+ 25kph max
+ no throttle standard throttle allowed
+ EMC/safety/certification requirements etc.
+ only allowed in Victoria so far I believe
 
throttle is OK untill 6km/h alah ''working pace''
On our control system you hold the down menu button to engage.

So no variable speed control, but still necessary und v.handy feature.
 
t3sla said:
throttle is OK untill 6km/h alah ''working pace''
On our control system you hold the down menu button to engage.

So no variable speed control, but still necessary und v.handy feature.
Click to expand...


This is a joke!!! i can walk at 8kph.. i didnt spend over 2k to only use my throttle up to 6kph how silly
 
walphillips said:
t3sla said:
throttle is OK untill 6km/h alah ''working pace''
On our control system you hold the down menu button to engage.

So no variable speed control, but still necessary und v.handy feature.
Click to expand...


This is a joke!!! i can walk at 8kph.. i didnt spend over 2k to only use my throttle up to 6kph how silly
Click to expand...

You mean you didn't vote for 6kph, since it's a law which 'has' to be followed.

Then again in some ways you vote with your money
 
The purpose is so that the bicycle can be moved under it's own power while you are walking it right?

Because riding at 6 kph is a great way for the average person to lose balance.
 
Architectonic said:
Because riding at 6 kph is a great way for the average person to lose balance.
Click to expand...
Never mind trying to push it up a grade!

Exhibit A, captured a month or 2 back.
This bike seemingly had no throttle without the PAS active

[youtube]5o4G5URsdPE[/youtube]
 
Hyena said:
Architectonic said:
Because riding at 6 kph is a great way for the average person to lose balance.
Click to expand...
Never mind trying to push it up a grade!

Exhibit A, captured a month or 2 back.
This bike seemingly had no throttle without the PAS active

[youtube]5o4G5URsdPE[/youtube]
Click to expand...


yepers... thats safety for ya! :roll:
 
That looks like an ezee, funly enough they are really well balanced due to good frame geometry.

Yes low speed throttle for assistance while walking up such an incline is ideal.

No throttle saves an amazing amount of power and really encourage you to boost fitness. I managed to keep pace with most during todays group ride.

Really keen to try a s-pedelec
 
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