Australian (NSW) Ebike Law

[Fush]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/when-is-a-bike-not-a-bike-when-its-electric/2008/06/15/1213468240544.html

Looks like ebikes are been screwed over in New South Wales...

It kinda annoys me a fair bit, but my bike is still broken since i put a flat in the rim...

 

[diver]

wow that totaly sucks.the goverment hates it when they cant get there share of the pie

 

[knoxie]

Hi

Poxy stupid laws! such a shame that they are laying down the law in this way, those bikes are pretty slow when compared to the rides on here? the piece of pie thing fits for sure, the problem comes from that they look like mopeds, stealth is the way here, get your ride to look like a bike, peddle and run whatever power you need, its unlikely you will get pulled over.

Knoxie

 

[pwbset]

That's completely *&^#ed up.

I ebiked to Radio Shack looking for diodes today (Radio Shack is also *&^#ed up... what a worthless place) and on my ride... in the bike lane @ <20mph... a cop came up behind me and then matched my pace eyeing my bike for a solid 30 seconds. I saw him get on the radio, but he didn't stop me or anything. We have local bike cops so I'm hoping he's mentioning how cool it all looked and that they should ebike instead of alerting the other local cops to my presence. Ha! I'm tempted to stop in and offer to upgrade their MTBs... for a small surcharge.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Seems the legal sticking point is that you really don't pedal an e-scooter. The pedals are for show.

I've never been pulled over on my bike.

But Fush....you have an X5 at 72v, 40amps....it's hardly like you are obeyin the law in the first place


I do wish we could register them and ride as mini-mopeds with 1000 watts or something decent.


The law will catch up eventually, as there will be many more of these cases now, with petrol approaching $1.70 per litre...

 

[Link]

Suckage.

Too bad the limit isn't like 30mph instead of 20. Even a cheap bike would go faster than that with pedal power alone. :?

 

[AussieJester]

Aussie e-bike laws are pathetic period 200watt MAX how pathetic. Climate Change Minister Penny Wong has committed the Federal Government to setting a target for a medium-term cut in greenhouse gas emissions and then they turn around and clamp down on people/business trying to work towards this, its almost laughable :-S I welcome the day our Bass Strait and Carnarvon Basin oil supplies dry up, over 40% of our current oil supplies come from it, maybe then the Australian government will take a hard look at the viable alternatives... wishful thinking i know.... Instead they will take the 'easier' route where they will still get a 'slice of the pie' and start extract oil from shale, we have estimated 30 billion barrels of shale oil in Queensland alone apparently :-S... Heaven forbid a political party would actually do what they promise ;-| In the meantime i shall contiune with my 1000watt e-bike build and multi windmill charging station and "stick it to the man" LoL... till im locked up for it i guess hehehe

 

[Ben]

I welcome the day our Bass Strait and Carnarvon Basin oil supplies dry up, over 40% of our current oil supplies come from it, maybe then the Australian government will take a hard look at the viable alternatives... wishful thinking i know.... Instead they will take the 'easier' route where they will still get a 'slice of the pie' and start extract oil from shale, we have estimated 30 billion barrels of shale oil in Queensland alone apparently

Watch 60 minutes much?

This whole thing puts a hole in my plan to make a recumbent scooter, damn it, it would have been so cool too.

I just spent $1400 on the assumption that it was a legal vehicle to ride.

I think this is the problem here. People should check to see whether what they are buying is going to get them in trouble or not. Ignorance of law is not an excuse and those who are aware of the law and chose to run "high" powered setups are taking a risk.

It's time people just accepted this law. From the looks of it, it's here to stay.

 

[AussieJester]

Watch 60 minutes much?

No dont watch commercial tv (with the exception the Footy and Cricket) ads drive me crazy...all information is from http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Australia/Oil.html

This whole thing puts a hole in my plan to make a recumbent scooter, damn it, it would have been so cool too.

Dont let it, build as stealthy as possible and i doubt you will be noticed...well unless a cop sees you climbing a huge hill at 30kph while picking your nose or combing your hair and not pedaling LoL

 

[Knuckles]

E bike laws are moronic. In the USA we are governed by the Feds for sales liability (20MPH 750W max).
See ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#United_States

But NYS hates e bikes yet they are sold all over NYC. See ... http://nycewheels.com/
The city cops don't seem to care and there is no NYS case law about e bikes.

OTOH ... See NYSDMV ... http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#motor
Heck there is no NYS law that disallows e bikes. Also, NYS legislation has been pending for years to approve e bikes but it is stalled out (big oil maybe?)
NYSDMV is full of shit. E bikes are not illegal in NYS until some NYS court says they are! Test case anyone?

[under NYS law ... If the 'power' comes from 'muscle' it is a 'device' called a 'bicycle'. A bicycle is not a motor vehicle.
So if you charge your bats (in NYS) with muscle power (like an exercise bike as generator - or the e bike itself on a kickstand)
then you can use that stored 'muscle' to power the bicycle. Like energy stored in a spring. But the 'spring' is electrochemical energy stored efficiently in lifepo4 bats]
-Think the judge will buy that? Heck I may build it just to loose weight! Exercise on your e bike in the Living Room before work, shower, then ride it to work in your suit!
Ha ha ... An electric bike you never plug in! That must be extra illegal!

Anyway ... My chopper e bike does fly. Better than any diamond frame. A superior ride and fast 35+MPH with just the front hub.
The 24 a123 bats are hidden in the frame (forks). See ... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4160
And the pedals are set up almost in a recumbent seat position. I can generate significant pedal power "out of the gate".

And Gosh! 3 cents per 5-mile ride. Arrest me (not)!
After all ... it's just a bicycle (he he).

btw ... my chopper is AWESOME as a dirt e bike too! Handles what ever I throw at it. Ha ha I so crazy!

Civil Disobedience to save the Planet? And it's a nice cheap awesome ride? Hell! I am willing to fight for it!
(My G-friend rides one to work. My kids love them. WTF is wrong with this planet? EV! EV! EV!)

 

[solarbbq2003]

Glad I found this post about the ebike laws in australia.
Theres a really long a complex story behind that supreme court decision, at the moment the supreme court ruling doesn't effect power assisted bicycles that look like bicycles. The reason the mopeds got targeted was because they look like unregistered motorbikes. For the supreme court ruling to effect the present law it would need to be changed, it is relating only to that style of ebike. There was no consideration of environmental aspects or anything to do with oil companies etc etc,
is was solely the decision of the judge, its a very long court case has been going on for a very long time.
Basically the police dont loose, the court case started out with the police trying to prove the mopeds were over 200watt peak power, that proved to be more difficult than it looks at first glance, and they spent an awful lot of money hiring out experts to prove it was over 200watts peak power. Pretty much that was their initial tactic to get the mopeds off the roads.
But they failed to prove that the motor was over 200watts peak power, so they changed tactics. They couldn't win that part of the case, so they had to win somehow, so they changed tack and went for the idea to prove that the motor was not an auxilliary motor, but was the main means of power. The judge decided ( I think this went on for almost 2 years or maybe a bit less, its been going for a long time), that the hub motor is the main means of power, that it is not an auxilliary motor.
If the rta was to amend or change the laws in accordance with this ruling , it could potentially put hub motors off the road in all sorts of bikes, but I doubt that will happen. In my view this ruling was more that the police side had to win somehow, they failed on the 200watt limit as their data couldn't prove it was over 200watts, so they went for a more subjective approach to win the case, concentrating on whether the motor was auxilliary or main means of power.
Also you have to look at the history of how the case came about, which is of course not in print anywhere.
As far as I'm aware it began in the Port Macquarie area on nsw, where some kids were riding on one of the mopeds. The police officer in involved began the ball rolling, it reached a point where police were first telling people not to ride them, but then it expanding into fining people riding them on the roads. I think most of those cases where people went to court they were not fined, as this supreme court case ( nsw supreme court ) would determine if they could be fined or not.
I think that reason and rationality will prevail over time, there has to be a place for electric mopeds as its obviously a form of transport that people want, I think at the moment there are issues with getting an electric moped registered for on road use, as they have to pass the 'adr' rules of the rta. ( adr = australian design regulations, rta= roads and transport authority of australia). I believe it is quite difficult to get electric mopeds registered. I have been told that its just not possible to do it at the moment, but I'm dont know enough about that side of things.
I'm sure that there will be provision made for getting electric mopeds registered for on road use. But electric bikes that look like bicycles or started their lives as pedal only bikes and have been retrofitted with an 'auxilliary' motor, as long as it is under 200watts peak power then its road legal.
There is only one ebike that I know of that is actually 200watt peak power ( in Australia ), made by avanti using a front hub motor designed at northern territory university ( funily enough that motor could provide a huge amount of power much more than any hub motor for ebikes that I know of if a suitable controller was used). The rta has also put a paper out suggesting some changes to the ebike laws, this paper was released before the supreme court ruling was handed down ( not very long ago though ), the changes suggested are to go to 300watt peak ( big deal!!!), to make all electric bikes registered with number plates and a yearly fee ( not sure but i think some sort of inspection also, not sure whether it would involve determining the peak output)
It should also be noted that the author of the rta paper was very aware of the proceedings of the supreme court case, in fact in my view, the rta paper is a direct response to that case, its a very biased and misleading paper which seems to be very much related to the electric moped issue. The author of the paper fails to mention the usa or canadian ebike laws at all,
but does mention some european laws which fit in with his ideas. I think that is extremely misleading to fail to mention whats happening in those countries. He also states that most ebikes are 300watt peak power.........on what planet????
In my view to get reasonable assistance at least 900watts is needed, 1.2kwatt would be a reasonable level and have a speed limit on the bikes of 40km/hr ( maybe lower for younger riders). That would be a practical solution that would allow the introduction of ebikes into australia in a meaningful way. Very few ebikes are 300watt peak power.
We need to open up australia to electric transportation, very few people can afford a toyota prius, and fully electric cars are just enormously expensive. Electric bikes and trikes are a practical solution for many things indeed, it does seem very contradictory that the present govt has just thrown 350million to toyota to develop a hybrid car in australia, and on the other hand are pretty much stopping the introduction of electric bikes in a meaningful way. I've had my two cents worth!
Anyway attached is some links for more reading if anyones interested.

 

[andys]

I heard the police are on to the powerful e-bikes in Southern California as well now. A friend of mine was testing some bikes at the Electric Cyclery, and some of their customers have been fined who are running higher voltage modified bikes. If you get tagged going 30 MPH on their radar in a bike lane, you are nailed.

Eventually, the new success of the small EV market will end up causing new laws to be written. I am sure the motor vehicle departments will find a way to collect some money off them one way or another. I have an electric scooter that I have modified, and wonder how long I will get away without registering it as a moped here in Northern California

 

[Link]

I heard the police are on to the powerful e-bikes in Southern California as well now.

Uh oh...

 

[Knuckles]

Q: Is my chopper a bad e bike?

A: YES! Bad chopper. Bad!

Silly chopper goes 35 MPH on dirt trails. So naughty! And invisable.

Bats? I ain't got no bats! Oh that thing? It's a disc brake!

(Silly Chopper. Sneaky little bugger. With pedals.)

 

[Lessss]

What needs to happen is a lawsuit against the police dept and government on a discrimination basis. This primary vs auxilary motor issue discriminates against the old and physically infirm disabled.

 

[Link]

^ Love that kind of logic...

 

[stew007]

They tell us all the time if we dont cut carbon emissions were going to have climate change armageddon, yet when we cut back and go green they enforce laws to prevent us, well I say stick it to them, and there immoral laws. 8)

 

[AussieJester]

well I say stick it to them, and there immoral laws. 8)

+1

 

[andys]

The worst state I know for electric scooters is Florida. All electric scooters are illegal for use on the street, no matter what size motor, and even if the rider is over 16 and has a drivers license. They actually enforce this. I think low power e-bikes are OK though. I read someone was going to weld some dummy pedals on his electric scooter to see if that would do the trick.

 

[Lessss]

Florida had a real problem with senior citizens driving electric carts on the sidewalks like they were their own personal raceways - hence the outright ban.

 

[AussieJester]

Florida had a real problem with senior citizens driving electric carts on the sidewalks like they were their own personal raceways - hence the outright ban.

I thought Florida was where all Americans went to die? Wouldnt have thought they would have cared much about the elderly hogging the pathways How the poor ol' fossil get about now then? ahhh hangz on i get it, its a conspiracy, the government needz to keep the numbers down in Florida so there is always room for more retirees, they enforce this law hence the fossils must use walking frames or manual chairs to get about in the scorching heat resulting in death due to excessive heat exposure

 

[pwbset]

I thought Florida was where all Americans went to die?

:lol: Another one for the quotes hall of fame!

 

[commanda]

I would have thought the 200 watt limit, being a federal law, would over-ride anything the states have to say.

You could always buy either an EVT (about $4000 on the road and delivered) or a Swei (about $2000 plus on-roads and delivery). Both are ADR complianced. You do need a motorcycle license in NSW however.

Personally, I wouldn't ride a 200 watt moped. Get run over. Even the EVT at almost 60 Km/Hr on the flat isn't quite fast enough.

Hope this stupid interpretation of a stupid law wont impact my upcoming Schwinn chopper conversion with Cyclone (180 watt of course).

Amanda

 

[commanda]

From the horses mouth (so to speak)

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/otherinformation/scootersminibikes.html?rlid=6

So a converted pushbike up to 200 watts output power is OK. Everything else is illegal, except scooters which can be made to comply with ADR's (then you have registration, compulsory third party insurance, and presumably motorcycle license requirements).

Amanda

 

[Ben]

Where does that leave Kim's (AussieJester's) trike then?

It's not going to have pedals, it's going to be ridden on the road (obstructing traffic?) and it's definitely going to go over 10km/h. I guess it's illegal then.

I wonder what happens if he gets pulled over.

Also, in some pdf solarbbq linked to it stated that the motor mustn't be capable of producing over 200W regardless of whether it is in operation or not.

Do you reckon that means you can't restrict a large motor to <200W à la dummy switch or Cycle Analyst?